It was on the table as nobody think it was defensible in case Italy joined the war at Germany side
Malta is a European country that was relatively free under British control. The Brits would not turn it over to a fascist regime without the consent of the Maltese people. It would violate the fundamental principles for which Britain and its western allies are fighting. Read Churchill's speeches before and during the early years of the war.
Being on the table is not the same thing as a serious decision. Also, is it really true that there was serious discussion of turning over Malta, which had home rule in the 1920s and part of the 30s (and only reverted to Crown Colony status because of internal political and religious dissent)?It was on the table as nobody think it was defensible in case Italy joined the war at Germany side
For the 20 and 30 i don't know but i doubt it, but the reasoning of Churchill was that the UK was beyond desperate after the fall of France and giving up something that everybody know the italians will have conquered anyway and they haven't the slightest chance to really defend it was a very reasonable price to keep Italy out of the warBeing on the table is not the same thing as a serious decision. Also, is it really true that there was serious discussion of turning over Malta, which had home rule in the 1920s and part of the 30s (and only reverted to Crown Colony status because of internal political and religious dissent)?
"Something that everybody know the Italians will have conquered [Malta] anyway"??? In what universe? The Italians couldn't even do it with German air support in 1941-42. And when was Churchill "beyond desperate"? He knew how to count: "At the beginning of World War II, the Royal Navy was the strongest navy in the world, with the largest number of warships built and with naval bases across the globe. It had over 15 battleships and battlecruisers, 7 aircraft carriers, 66 cruisers, 164 destroyers and 66 submarines. With a massive merchant navy, about a third of the world total, it also dominated shipping. " (Wiki) And Italy? "On 10 June 1940, following the German invasion of France and the lowlands, the Kingdom of Italy declared war on France and the United Kingdom and entered World War II. Italy went to war with the fifth largest navy in the world." (Wiki) The fifth largest navy had zero aircraft carriers to Britain's seven. It should be noted that the German surface fleet was seriously reduced during the first year of the war to where it could not possibly have protected an invasion of the UK, much less of Malta. There were no German surface warships in the Mediterranean in 1940, and U-boats only entered the Med in 1941, after the threat of Sealion was over. In the fall of 1940, a British carrier decimated the Italian fleet at Taranto, and it was decimated again at the Battle of Matapan in March 1941. The Italian fleet stayed on a cautious defensive for most of the war, even though the Germans sent warplanes to Italy to protect the fleet.
The Brits aren't going to give up somewhere as strategic as Malta without a fight. They might well give up Kenya or somewhere else of little to moderate importance for Italian neutrality.Yep, but the first navy in the world had a lot more things to do that merely concentrate on the mediterrean as that was a job of the French Navy with just the help of the Royal Navy while the fifth navy in the world can concentrate over a single front. Not considering that after the fall of France, there was a serious scare of a German invasion and there were few desire to add another army and other front to what currently face, especially after the disaster of Dunkirk
All your... post, is based on hindsight but before the italian armed forces entered the war, they were pretty much feared due to the strategic position of Italy and predicted level of capacity of the italian armed forces.
Oh the italian fleet stayed in cautious defensive more due the lack of fuel than fear of the almighty Royal Navy
Lack of fuel was itself part of the weakness of the Italian fleet and thus can be used to strengthen my analysis as well as yours. But you are right that lack of fuel was a big problem for the Italians, in part because they simply didn't have it, the Germans didn't have enough to share with them readily, and the Brits had the ability to strike at Italian navy fuel storage facilities and Italian ships carrying fuel to North Africa (which would make the Italians cautious because of their fear of provoking the Brits into doing so more often). Also, there's the issue that the British Navy would sometimes function as a Fleet in Being vis a vis the Mediterranean, even when they were not there in full force. I mean by this that the Italians would know that larger than usual British forces could come down through the Strait of Gibraltar at any time of emergency. Finally, the British navy had two separate means of access to the Med and thus the means of almost totally blocking the Italians from leaving the Med--Gib and Suez. This meant that the British maintained the naval initiative in the Med even when they suffered losses there, as in sending warplanes and supplies to Malta in 1942.Oh the italian fleet stayed in cautious defensive more due the lack of fuel than fear of the almighty Royal Navy
Do we have any figures for both German controlled trucks in N.Africa and In Barbarossa, German controlled truck numbers always seem a bit hazy.I think the biggest advantage would be the trucks from the NA theatre. The DAK was fully motorized (since you can't depend on horsetransport in the desert). I'm not sure how many trucks they had in NA, but it was a relatively big percentage of the trucks they had in total.
I don't think it would be enough of a difference to knock the USSR out of the war in 1941, but it should improve their logistical situation at least a bit.
Would the Nazis still get involved in Greece and Yugoslavia without Italy getting involved there?Interesting idea as mentioned earlier most likely Italo Balbo will be the new Duce.
This could have the following implications;
Libya will continue to be developed and become more Italian and the propaganda, an essential part of the regime, will focuss on this achievements instead of far away battles and conquests.
The diplomatic attitude of Italy could resembling that of Franco Spain which mean a slightly pro attitude towards Nazi Germany ar as Salazar Portugual which mean a more pro attitude towards the Allies,, but above all Ittaly will remain neutral.
Regarding the course of war it would affect the start of opereation Barbarossa, as mentioned by others the war in North Africa would not have much affect on the men and material but more on the start of the attack of the Sovjet Union. Even more important is that if Italy stay neutral it is doubtfull that it will invade Greece in 1940 or even Albania.
If Itlay does not make no moves in the Balkan, Nazi Germany does not lose time to help Italy in Greece and Jugoslavia, and can start Barbarossa early in 1941 which could affect the course of war in the Sovjet Union.
A neutral Italy mean that the Mediteranian remains open for the trafic of goods, material and men. This will mean the Sovjet Union could not also be supplied by Moermanks or Siberia but also via the Mediteranian and Black Sea.
For the comming war in Asia this mean the British will have shorter supply lines to their Asian possessions and Commonweatlh troops from India, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand are not needed in North Africa but can be deployed in Malaya, Dutch East Indies and Australia. In other words the Japanese Empire will have a stronger oponent for their conquest of Asia. Since the British can free much more men, airplanes, armor, artilery and material, which is not needed in North Africa,
it affect the desicion of the Japanese Empire which war plan will be chosen.
They didn't have a lot of trucks, otherwise they weren't depending on horsetransport.Do we have any figures for both German controlled trucks in N.Africa and In Barbarossa, German controlled truck numbers always seem a bit hazy.
More trucks in abstract will help but you still have the problem that you need logistics for your logistics, and there's more than enough Russian mud for both
I know Rommel asked and grudgingly got more trucks, but even then he had to carefully manage and concentrate what he had, it's not like the DAK had a truck whenever and where ever they needed them. And the DAK is much smaller force so if in abstract the DAK did have a significant percentage of the trucks available to Germany in 1941 that really might just indicate that Germany didn't have very many trucks full stop. Plus didn't the Italians provide a few by already being there.
Unfortunately there's litteraly no way the Italians ever build German tanks locally because the lead designer and the fascist crook in charge at Ansaldo were hilariously protectionist. It went to the point where they outright lied about the development status of the P40 to not build Pz IIIs (which was suggested).They didn't have a lot of trucks, otherwise they weren't depending on horsetransport.
Rommel asked for 8,000 truck in 1942, while at that time the four panzerarmies in Russia had 14,000 trucks available (source: Van Creveld Supplying War). Note that the 14,000 in Russia are for the four panzerarmies, so I assume that in total the Germans had more trucks in Russia.
If Italy is not in the war themselves, they might be able/willing to sell trucks (and other things like engines) to the Germans, maybe in return for designs of planes and tanks.
They didn't have a lot of trucks, otherwise they weren't depending on horsetransport.
Rommel asked for 8,000 truck in 1942, while at that time the four panzerarmies in Russia had 14,000 trucks available (source: Van Creveld Supplying War). Note that the 14,000 in Russia are for the four panzerarmies, so I assume that in total the Germans had more trucks in Russia.
Guess it will depend on how neutral Italy is feeling and how teh allies respondIf Italy is not in the war themselves, they might be able/willing to sell trucks (and other things like engines) to the Germans, maybe in return for designs of planes and tanks.
I left out the part where Rommel was ridiculed because he asked for things the Germans could in no way deliver to him.It hard to grasp what an extra 8,000 truck does to German Logistics overall in Barbarossa, but my gut instinct is to say not very much given Barbarossa went in with 600k vehicles in total (going by Glanz cite in wiki) and still looked like it did.
The allies would be a bit stupid to declare war on Italy (OK, that does sound like them in 1939-1940), maybe some sanctions, but it's also very hard for the allies to closely monitor what's happening. Germany and Italy do share a border after all.Guess it will depend on how neutral Italy is feeling and how teh allies respond
I left out the part where Rommel was ridiculed because he asked for things the Germans could in no way deliver to him.
And I did mention in my original post that I doubt that it would be enough of a difference to win against Russia and that it would (only) improve the logistics a bit.
True, but there are softer ways to do it, like buy/trade some Italian trucks yourself. Plus there's the issue that Italian industry/manufacturing struggled anywayThe allies would be a bit stupid to declare war on Italy (OK, that does sound like them in 1939-1940), maybe some sanctions, but it's also very hard for the allies to closely monitor what's happening. Germany and Italy do share a border after all.
No problem. I was just pointing out we were in agreement (sometimes that gets lost in a discussion)No I know sorry if I give the impression I was arguing with you or strawmanning you
That would be interesting, because probably the allies can afford to pay a better price, given that the German economy was not a in great state, and pounds or dollars are a more reliable currency than DM.True, but there are softer ways to do it, like buy/trade some Italian trucks yourself. Plus there's the issue that Italian industry/manufacturing struggled anyway
Salazar like is much more likely than Franco like in foreign policy if Balbo is in charge. Balbo hated the Germans.Interesting idea as mentioned earlier most likely Italo Balbo will be the new Duce.
This could have the following implications;
Libya will continue to be developed and become more Italian and the propaganda, an essential part of the regime, will focuss on this achievements instead of far away battles and conquests.
The diplomatic attitude of Italy could resembling that of Franco Spain which mean a slightly pro attitude towards Nazi Germany ar as Salazar Portugual which mean a more pro attitude towards the Allies,, but above all Ittaly will remain neutral.
Regarding the course of war it would affect the start of opereation Barbarossa, as mentioned by others the war in North Africa would not have much affect on the men and material but more on the start of the attack of the Sovjet Union. Even more important is that if Italy stay neutral it is doubtfull that it will invade Greece in 1940 or even Albania.
If Itlay does not make moves in the Balkan, Nazi Germany does not lose time to help Italy in Greece and Jugoslavia, and can start Barbarossa early in 1941 which could affect the course of war in the Sovjet Union.
A neutral Italy mean that the Mediteranian remains open for the trafic of goods, material and men. This will mean the Sovjet Union could not also be supplied by Moermanks or Siberia but also via the Mediteranian and Black Sea.
For the comming war in Asia this mean the British will have shorter supply lines to their Asian possessions and Commonweatlh troops from India, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand are not needed in North Africa but can be deployed in Malaya, Dutch East Indies and Australia. In other words the Japanese Empire will have a stronger oponent for their conquest of Asia. Since the British can free much more men, airplanes, armor, artilery and material, which is not needed in North Africa,
it affect the desicion of the Japanese Empire which war plan will be chosen.
My guess: Yugoslavia yes, Greece no.Would the Nazis still get involved in Greece and Yugoslavia without Italy getting involved there?