Japanese tanks are not much beter possibly worse don't think Japan would have done well in North africa tbh
Munich Shuffle: 1938-1942
- Thread starter Garrison
- Start date
The main advantage of Japan in North Africa (compared to Italy) would be the IJN, which would do better than the RM (and in turn, that would do wonders for Italian logistics and morale). Not the IJA.
marathag
Banned
Well, put the IJN in the Med in place of the RM, the RN would get chased out or sunk, like with Indian Ocean raid. They would have attacked/ invaded Cyprus, Malta and anywhere else flying the Union Jack on Day 1.
Also, Japanese Tanks ran on Diesel, and used asbestos insulation to try to keep the interiors cooler.
Nobody else besides them thought of that for high temps.
Yes, this sounds like the complicated operations the Japanese went in for.
Of course it all depends on them not being Taranto'd in harbour.
Unfortunately running on diesel does cause problems if they're trying to use captured fuel.
Not quite so easy actually i suspect given that they would not have the advantage of McArthur, Percival and Bennet but the IJN is certainly likely to be more of an issue than the RM. however British Land based aircraft in North Africa is better than in the Far East. The likely outcome certainly would be no Intervention in Greece and the Uk having to fight only in North Africa..
Western Desert Force Vickers medium mk2s has asbestos cement panels for heat protection (not HEAT protection). In the photo I've seen, it looked like panels were attached to the outside of the tanks, but may well have been used inside as well.
Asbestos cement is much less dangerous than asbestos fibres as the fibres are bound in the cement (a bit like asbestos-containing brake shoes are reasonably OK to handle). It's easily made into sheets, is fireproof (good in a tank) and is an OK insulator. It was widely used for flat panels and boards before plastics were available. Not what we'd want to use now, but not quite as daft as it sounds.
Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
The Italians in the original timeline conquered British Somaliland and marched part of the way across Egypt and made incursions into other British controlled territories, whilst the British were still reeling from the sudden declaration of war by the Italians and the heavy 'entente' defeats in France. The problem the Italians had was dubious logistics and that they didn't have any answer to the arrival of more Indian troops and more of the UK's other overseas allies.
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It says something when your logistics are worse than those of the guys literally having to ship stuff from the UK by sea all the way around the Cape of Good Hope...
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marathag
Banned
Matilda II were diesel, and in a real pinch, you can mix gasoline and motor oil to get a fuel that will work, if you don't mind shortened life
Good Find!
11th April – 28th August 1941 – North Africa Part II – Operation Compass
Garrison
Donor
11th April – 28th August 1941 – North Africa Part II – Operation Compass
Compass opened at 0500 hours on the 25th of June with a diversionary artillery bombardment aimed at the fortified Italian camp at Nibeiwa. By 0830 hours a combined attack by Indian infantry and British armour had taken the fort. This swift success was a clear signpost for the course of the rest of the battle. The primary goal of this phase of Compass was to retake Sidi Barrani by sweeping in behind the line of Italian forts, attacking them from the west rather than the east where their defences were heaviest. 7th RTR and 4th Indian Infantry Division, transferred from East Africa in response to the crisis in Egypt at the behest of Wavell before his removal from command, struck towards Sidi Barrani and attacked the Tummar East and Tummar West forts. Another spearhead moving along the coast would attack the fort at Maktila, before also joining the attack on Sidi Barrani. The Royal Navy supported the attacks by conducting bombardments of Sidi Barrani and Maktila, with the Desert Air Force attacking multiple ground targets [1].
7th Armoured Division headed for Buq-Buq on the coast to the West of Sidi Barrani, cutting the road that was the main artery of supply for the troops forted up at Sidi Barrani as well as their route of retreat. These attacks left the forts further south at Sofafi and Rabia isolated and exposed to attack from all sides. The Italian 63rd Division Cirene based at Sofafi and Rabia tried to withdraw towards Halfaya, but they were cut off by 4th Armoured Brigade west of Sofafi and surrendered after a few sporadic firefights. A few scattered groups did escape and found their way to Halfaya, however there were barely enough of them to form a single company, the Cirene division had ceased to exist to all intents and purposes. Sidi Barrani fell on the 27th and with the losses at Sofafi more than 45,000 Italian troops had been taken prisoner with thousands more killed or wounded. The successes of the first few days of Compass caused a delay in exploiting the opportunity created because of the issues involved in dealing with so many POWs [2].
By the 1st of July the pursuit of the retreating Italian forces was underway once more with a new and far more ambitious goal in mind, the seizure of the port of Tobruk. Capturing the port would ease the pressure on British supply lines and facilitate a drive further west towards Tripoli, the capital of Italian Libya and the primary hub for resupplying the Italian forces. If Tripoli fell the campaign in North Africa would be effectively over. The capture of Tobruk would be a critical step towards this goal. As the British pressed forward the Crusader IBs proved their worth primarily in filling the infantry tank role, finally demonstrating to any doubters that the 6pdr gun with high explosive rounds was far more useful for infantry support than the 2pdr of the Matilda IIs and Valentines. Some HE rounds had been belatedly produced for the 2pdr guns, but the explosive charge was so small as to render them all but useless [3].
Largely driving utterly obsolete tankettes the Italian armoured forces could barely engage infantry let alone any of the British tanks they might encounter. Many of the Italian tanks didn’t even make it to combat, succumbing to mechanical breakdowns after months of inadequate maintenance. Mechanical breakdowns also affected the British, but with control of the battlefield they were able to retrieve their losses and dispatch them to depots run by soldiers of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (REME) who worked tirelessly to recondition and repair broken down equipment, and find fixes for the teething problems encountered with the Crusader as it was exposed to the harsh desert conditions. The contribution of REME in maintaining the mobility advantage the of the British forces was crucial, but often overlooked.
As the British advance continued into July with no sign of running out steam, or of being halted by the defending Italians, Mussolini was increasingly enraged. It seemed that German predictions that they would ‘kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will fall down’ were coming true in the USSR while Mussolini’s own forces were in retreat everywhere. When Marshal Balbo was shot down by the DAF while conducting a personal aerial survey of the defences near Tobruk on the 9th of July Mussolini had so little confidence in his senior officers that he proposed taking direct control of 10th Army from Rome. Communication issues between Rome and Tripoli, almost certainly manufactured by Marshal Badoglio and other members of the Italian staff, delayed this and Mussolini was persuaded to appoint a new theatre commander on the 13th in the shape of Marshal Rodolfo Graziani. Given that it took Graziani three days to assume command and establish the disposition of his forces this meant that 10th Army were rudderless for five days, helping to sow further confusion in their ranks [4].
There were high quality divisions available to the Italians filled with professional, disciplined, well equipped soldiers, well equipped by Italian standards at least. That such soldiers existed is easily forgotten in the catastrophe that was unfolding Libya and their efforts were undermined by the disorganization in the 10th Army. The 132nd Armoured Division Ariete was one such and its experience during Operation Compass illustrates the issues facing even the most determined Italian soldiers. Four of its battalions were dispatched to North Africa whilst the rest remained in Italy and rather than being maintained as a mobile force its I Battalion found most of its tanks being used for static defence and the guns of their M11/39 tanks were ineffectual against British Matilda IIs and Valentines. The II, III, and IV Battalions were just as poorly deployed and also suffered ruinous losses before the rest of the Ariete was finally dispatched to Libya in the middle of August, deploying the entire division would not appreciably improve their fortunes [5].
Matters were made more complicated for Marshal Graziani as Mussolini had not stopped interfering with the operation of 10th Army. He was now starting to issue ominous instructions to Graziani such as insisting that 10th Army ‘take not one more step back’ and demanding that they carry out a counteroffensive. To this end he promised Marshal Graziani reinforcements and on the 12th of July Mussolini informed the Marshal of the dispatch of German troops to Libya. Even though Mussolini sought to paint this as his idea, given the timing of the German response it was obvious they had already been preparing to dispatch their ‘blocking force’ before Mussolini ever broached the subject with Berlin [6].
Regardless of the best, and worst, efforts of Mussolini the British forces continued their push westward. On the 16th of July Bardia was taken and by this point in Compass the ability to deliver supplies to the frontline troops was a greater obstacle to the British advance than Italian resistance. All manner of expedients were used to try and increase the volumes being shipped, but at the end of the day the bulk of the logistics for what was now called Western Desert Command (WDC) still had to be carried by road in the back of workhorse trucks like the Bedford MW. Tobruk, despite all these difficulties of supply Tobruk fell on the 5th of August. In the aftermath of this blow the Italians abandoned Derna on the 10th, and it was taken by the British the following day. Even with Tobruk taken the British advance continued and Barce and Benghazi swiftly fell, Beda Fomm was taken on the 16th and the British reached El Agheila on the 18th of August.
At this point Alexander faced a major decision. The British supply lines were not simply overstretched but approaching breaking point, fatigue was setting in amongst the troops, coupled with the whittling down of the available armoured strength this meant the WDC was running out of momentum. Against this Alexander had to weigh the fact that nine Italian divisions had been destroyed and there was at this moment no organized resistance facing his forces, any delay to regroup might make further advances later costly. Churchill was certainly keen to see the advance continue, and this desire had been backed up with action. The last elements of 2nd New Zealand Division were arriving from Crete, having been relieved by garrison troops from the UK. One brigade of 6th Australian Division was due to follow shortly, along with the 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division dispatched from Britain.
As far as the supply and armour situation went Convoy Lion was due to arrive on the 29th bringing large quantities of fresh supplies, as well as 118 tanks. This shipment was primarily composed of Infantry Tanks, with more Valentines than Matilda IIs being dispatched on this occasion. The decision was taken at the last minute to split the convoy. The primary convoy still designated Lion would proceed to Alexandria to offload the heavy equipment, while what was now designated as Lynx would make for Tobruk to deliver supplies and a contingent of trucks. This simple plan was somewhat undermined by a mix up over cargo manifests which meant that very few trucks were sent to Tobruk, and a number of universal carriers arrived instead, useful but hardly effective cargo carriers [7].
This issue lay in the future for Alexander, on the 20th he decided to make one last push along the coast and the leading elements of the WDC reached the town of Sirte, around 300 miles from Tripoli, on the 28th. It was here that Alexander finally called a halt, deciding his forces had reached their utmost limit and that resupply and reorganization were the order of the day. Defensive positions were to be prepared around Sirte and heavy artillery moved up to support them while fresh supply dumps were built up. Courtesy of intelligence intercepts Alexander was well aware that substantial reinforcements were arriving in Tripoli, including several German divisions, he had no intention of seeing all the gains the WDC had made being undone by the Wehrmacht [8].
[1] Some of this will follow the same rhythm as OTL with the same units, but you can assume they are better supplied and supported, meaning fewer casualties and more momentum as they advance.
[2] the Cirene takes a lot more casualties than OTL and the overall number of prisoners taken is higher.
[3] And the ability to suppress defensive positions with HE is of course a big help in sustaining the advance and keeping the losses down.
[4] And Balbo dies at a very awkward moment for the Italians, and it takes days to talk Mussolini out of his latest bad idea.
[5] In OTL the Ariete avoided heavy losses and when the rest of it was dispatched to Libya it joined up with the Afrika Korps.
[6] There will be an Afrika Korps, just not one that anyone will expect.
[7] Neither Lion nor Lynx existed OTL, the mix up in what was sent where is simply a small recognition that even in a Britwank it isn’t only the enemy that makes mistakes.
[8] So the British have advanced that bit further and there’s no Greece to distract the British from preparing to meet any Axis counteroffensive. But who will command the Afrika Korps in this TL?
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They should let Rommel escape and somehow maneuver him into position to command it so they can be sure they'll win since he's not the right man for the job to put it kindly.
Well, it might be a blessing in disguise (for the Allied camp and by extension, Britain) that the Heer deploys the AK, and gets to fight the British for maybe a few years.
If the British had managed to take Libya in one fell swoop, it would have meant the Afrika Korps (and possibly more Italian troops as well) would have been sent to Russia. Instead, those troops will be deployed in Libya (where, regardless of what happens, they will never be a serious threat to the Allied cause). And in the following years, they'll surely receive reinforcements and supplies from Italy and Germany, further weakening the Axis.
Sure, an active front in Libya consumes British resources too, but frankly, Britain can afford it. Germany and Italy cannot.
EDIT : plus, any German aircraft deployed in Libya won't be deployed over England.
If the British had managed to take Libya in one fell swoop, it would have meant the Afrika Korps (and possibly more Italian troops as well) would have been sent to Russia. Instead, those troops will be deployed in Libya (where, regardless of what happens, they will never be a serious threat to the Allied cause). And in the following years, they'll surely receive reinforcements and supplies from Italy and Germany, further weakening the Axis.
Sure, an active front in Libya consumes British resources too, but frankly, Britain can afford it. Germany and Italy cannot.
EDIT : plus, any German aircraft deployed in Libya won't be deployed over England.
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Garrison
Donor
Ah but you haven't seen the composition of the alt-Afrika Korps, or who I have got commanding it... 😈
My Libyan geography isn't fantastic - but isn't Sirte within say, one big push of Tripoli?
Of course, holding the ports of Tobruk, Benghazi and Syrte will help the British logistics a lot... and hurt the Axis logistics (as everything will have to go through the Tripoli port, which has a limited capacity...). Plus, the RN (and RAF) can use Syrte as a base for raiding Axis convoys bound to Tripoli.
I'm half-expecting the Axis to force Vichy France into opening the ports of Tunisia to them.
This is interesting. What changed to cause REME to be established well over a year ahead of schedule, and with substantially less combat experience (even with the extra weeks in France) to demonstrate the need for all maintenance and repair to be under a single cap badge?