More conservative languages

[JJohnson]

Looking at German, amongst the Germanic languages, it's relatively conservative grammatically speaking.

It has 4 cases of noun and pronoun, 3 genders, and six verb forms (5 distinct, usually), declined definite/indefinite articles, a useful singular/plural second person pronoun distinction, inflected adjectives for case, gender, and number, productive comparative/superlative suffixes, present/past indicative and subjunctive, and relatively well preserved strong and weak verbs.

My question is, if other Germanic or even Romance languages were as conservative as German, how would they look today? If English, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, French, Spanish, or Italian were as inflected as German (relative to their respective parent languages: Old English, Old Norse, Latin), how would they look?

 

[Falecius]

Looking at German, amongst the Germanic languages, it's relatively conservative grammatically speaking.

It has 4 cases of noun and pronoun, 3 genders, and six verb forms (5 distinct, usually), declined definite/indefinite articles, a useful singular/plural second person pronoun distinction, inflected adjectives for case, gender, and number, productive comparative/superlative suffixes, present/past indicative and subjunctive, and relatively well preserved strong and weak verbs.

My question is, if other Germanic or even Romance languages were as conservative as German, how would they look today? If English, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, French, Spanish, or Italian were as inflected as German (relative to their respective parent languages: Old English, Old Norse, Latin), how would they look?

Spanish and, especially, Italian, are relatively conservative, relative to Vulgar Latin (their actual parent language). Their inflection is considerably reduced relative to Latin, yes, but this is probably inevitable. Note that even in German, the case system while still functioning (more so than in most remaining Germanic) is somewhat residual. French reduced the Latin system considerably more especially in verbs (though ortography really masks part of it with the writing down of endings that are rarely realized in speech). I don't think it is impossible to imagine an Italian variety to preserve a semi-residual reduced case system, though they'd also have to regularize the Latin system to make it stick long-term (languages tend to weed out excessive irregularity over the long haul). But it is hard because the Vulgar Latin trend was already going heavily toward the disappearence of cases., it seems.
This is also the case for the evolutionary trend of Old English. It may be slowed by the absence of Norse and French influence, but the changes were already underway (as they would occure in the same direction in Dutch and Norse itself). Now, for Scandinavian languages, we actually have a very conservative sister language, Icelandic. So, to the question, "how would Danish, Swedish, Norwegian look like if they were more conservative?" the answer is "a lot more like Faeroese or Icelandic". And as for English, the answer might be "a lot more like Dutch".

 

[frustrated progressive]

This thread might be useful, gentlemen.

 

[JJohnson]

So, theoretically, English could be something like this:


Consonants:
Ff - like f except between vowels, where it's a v sound
Ȝ ȝ - a y sound
þ - beginning and end of words, as 'th' in 'think'
ð - between vowels, as 'th' in 'that'. The þ will turn into ð in nouns when adding an ending on the word (Pæþ to Pæðen)
Gg: hard 'g' before a/o/u, soft 'g' before e/i
Consonant clusters:
sch: sh
ȝh after e/i/æ/y, like German ich; after a/o/u like German ach. It lengthens the vowel before it
Definite Article:

the/that:
þe (þes, þen) (masculine)
þe (þer (d/g), þe (a)) (feminine)
þat, þes, þat) (neuter)

this:
þiss, þisses, þissen
þisse, þisser, þisse
þiss, þisses, þiss

Masculine Nouns:
(s) (N G D/A): Stoon, Stoon(e)s, Stoon, Stoon (stone)
(p) (N G D/A): Stones, Stones, Stonen, Stones
Most masculine nouns are like Stoon; those ending in 'e' are 'weak':
(s) (N G D/A): Appe, Appen, Appen, Appen (ape)
(p) (N G D/A): Appen, Appen, Appen, Appen
similarly Ange, Bane, Beene, Snake, Slage, Plege, Nake, Name, Nefe, Mage, etc.

Feminine Nouns:
(s) (N G D/A): Gaat, Gaat, Gaat, Gaat (goat)
(p) (N G D/A): Gæte, Gæte, Gæten, Gæte
Most feminine nouns just add (e)n in the plural, like all nouns ending in -ung
(s) (N G D/A): Riȝhtung, Riȝhtung, Riȝhtung, Riȝhtung (direction)
(p) (N G D/A): Riȝhtungen, Riȝhtungen, Riȝhtungen, Riȝhtungen
or in 'e':
(s) (N G D/A): Strenge, Strenge, Strenge, Strenge (strength)
(p) (N G D/A): Strengen, Strengen, Strengen, Strengen
similarly: Nose, Saule (soul), Swaðe (track), Snore (daughter-in-law), Nafe (nave of a wheel), Are (honor), Gefe (gift)
Otherwise, they just add 'e' at the end:
(s) (N G D/A): Kwen, Kwen, Kwen, Kwen (queen)
(p) (N G D/A): Kwene, Kwene, Kwenen, Kwene
similarly, Hand
The feminine nouns ending in -nes or -en or -et, add -se/-ne/-te in the plural. (Westen, desert; Fæsten, fortress; Bærnet, arson, etc)

Neuter Nouns:
(s) (N G D/A): Lamb, Lambes, Lamb, Lamb (lamb)
(p) (N G D/A): Lamber, Lamber, Lambern, Lamber
like lamb, Child, Speld, Kalf, and older neuter nouns that had no inflected plural (Kynn, Bedd, Bill, Wedd, etc). Former neuter nouns ending in 'en' became feminine around 1300.

(s) (N G D/A): Knee, Knees, Knee, Knee (knee)
(p) (N G D/A): Kneen, Kneen, Kneen, Kneen
Knee used to have an uninflected plural, but took the weak 'n' ending of Eaȝe (eye), Eare (ear), Wange (cheek), and dozens of other neuter nouns (Tree, Straw, Saw, Lee, Hree, Low, Bee, Anklee, etc), and neuter nouns ending in -el and -er (Tungel, star; Wunder, wonder, etc)

Pronouns:

I: ik, mein, me
thou: þu, þein, þe
he: he, his, him, him
she: sche, her, her, her
it: it, his, him, it
we: we, ur, us
ye: ȝe, ȝoer, ȝo
they: þeiȝ, þeir, þeim

Adjectives:
after definite articles:
M N F PL
N e e e en
G en en en en
D en en en en
A en e e en

unpreceded:
M N F PL
N e e e e
G es es er er
D en en er en
D/A en e e e

Comparative, Superlative:
always add er, est to an adjective:
blind, blinder, blindest

Irregular:
god, better, best
lyttel, læss, læst
Michel, mær, mæst
yfel, wiers, wierst

Strong Verb example:

helpen: to help
present indicative:
ik helpe we helpeþ
þu helpst ȝe helpeþ
he helpþ þeiȝ helpeþ

present subjunctive:
singular: helpe
plural: helpen

he sæȝde þat schie helpe him (he said that she is helping him, but I can't verify it)

past indicative:
ik halp we halpen
þu halpst ȝe halpen
he halp þeiȝ halpen

past subjunctive:
singular: hulpe
plural: hulpen
Example: if þu hulpe me, we kunnen soner gaan: if you would help me, we can go sooner.
past participle: holpen

Ik habe holpen, þu hast holpen, etc.
finden - to find; fand, funden
baken - to bake, bok, baken
standen - to stand; stod, is standen
been - to be; em, ert, is, sind; was, wast, was, waren; is been


Weak Verbs:
demen - to judge
ik deme we demeþ
þu deemst ȝe demeþ
he deemþ þeiȝ demeþ

subjunctive: deme, demen

past (add -de):
ik demde we demden
þu demdest ȝe demden
he demde þeiȝ demden

subjunctive: demde, demden
past participle: dem(e)d

ik habe demed/deemd

Preterite Present:
witten - to know (waat, wiste, witten)
durren to dare (daar, dorste, durren)

Modals:
kunnen to be able, know how to, can (kann, kuðe, kuþ)
magen to have permission to, may (mæȝ, mihte, miht)
moten to have to, must (mot/most, moste, most)
willen to want to (will, wollde, wolld)
schullen to be obligated to, ought to, shall (schall, schollde, scholld)
þurfen to need to (þarf, þorfde, þorfd)

ik kann we kunnen
þu kannst ȝe kunnen
he kann þeiȝ kunnen

So, that's my theoretically more conservative English. It looks like Late Old English/Early Middle English around 1100-1200 or so.

 

[JJohnson]

A possible 'conservative Spanish':

pronouns:
I: yo, mio/a, mi
thou: tu, tuo/a, ti
he: lo, los, lo
she: la, las, la
it: lo, los, lo
we: nos, nostro/a, nos
ye: vos, vostro/a, vos
they (m): li, liro, li
they (f): le, lera, le
they (n): la, laro, la

father: padre, padres, padre; padri, padris, padre
mother: madra, madras, madra; madre, madres, madre
son: filio, filios, filio; filii, filiis, filii
daughter: filia, filias, filia; filie, filies, filie
book: libro, libros, libro; libri, libris, libri
the book of my son: il libro mios filios

Demonstratives:
lo, la, lo (the, that)
isto, ista, isto (this, that near)
illo, illa, illo (that far away)

lo libro
isto libro: this book
illi libri: those books over there

Nouns:
Masculine
N libro libri
G libris libroro
O libro libri

Feminine:
N filia filie
G filias filiore
O filia filie

Neuter:
N facto facta
G factos factora
O facto facta

Comparative, Superlative: -ior-, -ism-

fuerto, fuertioro, fuertismo - strong, stronger, strongest
intelligente, intelligentoro, intelligentismo - intelligent, more intelligent, most intelligent

mio filio es lo intelligentismo todoro puelloro: my son is the most intelligent of all boys.

Verbs can stay the same, roughly, aside from haber and estar. Haber becomes the regular 'to have' while 'estar' reverts to being only 'to stand'. Tener is not used for 'to have', only 'to grasp' and never in the sense of owning anything.

Haber:
Present Indicative: habeo, habes, habe, habemos, habeis, haben, etc.

A (mildly) possible conservative Spanish.

A possible 'conservative Spanish':
pronouns:
I: yo, mio/a, mi
thou: tu, tuo/a, ti
he: lo, los, lo
she: la, las, la
it: lo, los, lo
we: nos, nostro/a, nos
ye: vos, vostro/a, vos
they (m): li, liro, li
they (f): le, lera, le
they (n): la, laro, la
father: padre, padres, padre; padri, padris, padre
mother: madra, madras, madra; madre, madres, madre
son: filio, filios, filio; filii, filiis, filii
daughter: filia, filias, filia; filie, filies, filie
book: libro, libros, libro; libri, libris, libri
the book of my son: il libro mios filios
Demonstratives:
lo, la, lo (the, that)
isto, ista, isto (this, that near)
illo, illa, illo (that far away)
lo libro
isto libro: this book
illi libri: those books over there
Nouns:
Masculine
N libro libri
G libris libroro
O libro libri
Feminine:
N filia filie
G filias filiore
O filia filie
Neuter:
N facto facta
G factos factora
O facto facta
Comparative, Superlative: -ior-, -ism-
fuerto, fuertioro, fuertismo - strong, stronger, strongest
intelligente, intelligentoro, intelligentismo - intelligent, more intelligent, most intelligent
mio filio es lo intelligentismo todoro puelloro: my son is the most intelligent of all boys.
Verbs can stay the same, roughly, aside from haber and estar. Haber becomes the regular 'to have' while 'estar' reverts to being only 'to stand'. Tener is not used for 'to have', only 'to grasp' and never in the sense of owning anything.
Haber:
Present Indicative: habeo, habes, habe, habemos, habeis, haben, etc.
A (mildly) possible conservative Spanish.

 

[The Professor]

@JJohnson
Are you aware that ȝ is merely the insular script version of g? Thus your soft g will be equivalent of y.
þ also became voiced in some common words especially the definite article, possibly due to influence of preceding words like in and an.
Also if you're factoring enough Scandinavian influence to add they to the pronouns then you also have to reduce the types of noun declension further as that started under Scandinavian influence in the Danelaw.

 

[JJohnson]

Yes, I do remember that in several of my sourcebooks. I just use both to leave y as a vowel (I sound), and yogh as the 'y' sound

 

[The Professor]

Yes, I do remember that in several of my sourcebooks. I just use both to leave y as a vowel (I sound), and yogh as the 'y' sound

But yogh was never a vowel. It was g: ȝe = ge, ȝa = ga.
If English adopts continental script then either it doesn't distinguish, like in the Scandinavian languages, or if yogh is only retained for the palatal then it is eventually replaced by j.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

I guess examples of what not to be is French, which quite obviously changed more than some others over the years

 

[1940LaSalle]

I was under the impression Dutch was/is a lot closer to English in its grammar than it is to German; i.e., is significantly less conservative than German?

 

[JJohnson]

But yogh was never a vowel. It was g: ȝe = ge, ȝa = ga.
If English adopts continental script then either it doesn't distinguish, like in the Scandinavian languages, or if yogh is only retained for the palatal then it is eventually replaced by j.

Correct. By saying 'y' sound, I mean the same sound as German "ja."