MMA/UFC and Boxing PODs

Hrvatskiwi

Hrvatskiwi

Hey everyone,
was wondering if any combat sports enthusiasts here having interesting ideas for PODs that could be explored around the sports.
e.g "what if Muhammad Ali lost the Rumble in the Jungle?"
"what if Conor McGregor knocked out Khabib Nurmagomedov?"
"what if John McCain succeeded in getting MMA federally banned?" etc etc.
 

carlosperezesp

I was thinking of doing one about Ali in which he's never stripped of his title in 1967. So he's not suspended for 3 years. Would he be undefeated? Would he had retired earlier?
 
Hrvatskiwi

Hrvatskiwi

carlosperezesp said:
I was thinking of doing one about Ali in which he's never stripped of his title in 1967. So he's not suspended for 3 years. Would he be undefeated? Would he had retired earlier?
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Ooh I think that would make a great TLIAW! Would be really interesting to see how the Heavyweight division plays out. You don't get the WBA tournament to sort the HW division out in Ali's absence. I wonder if the Quarry-Ellis winner (IOTL Ellis) fights Ali or if Frazier still gets the opportunity first after KOing Buster Mathis? I tend to think it would be Ellis, then Frazier still KOs Quarry and gets the title shot. Ali might even fight Dave Zyglewicz, though it would probably be a tune-up fight given that Zyglewicz's 28-1 record was VERY padded (hence why some commentators referred to him as the "mail-order heavyweight"). Whether Ali will look better or worse who knows? I haven't dug deep enough into Frazier's pre-championship record to have any confidence whether or not he would be worse against Ali if they fought in 1969 or '70 instead of '71? Maybe Ali fights Chuvalo earlier and people think see him as an underdog because he's unable to KO Chuvalo (who was incredibly durable, but the wider public probably wouldn't realise that).

How would you have Ali avoid getting stripped for draft dodging? Seemed like the powers that be would jump at any chance to bring down Ali at that time.
 

carlosperezesp

Hrvatskiwi said:
Ooh I think that would make a great TLIAW! Would be really interesting to see how the Heavyweight division plays out. You don't get the WBA tournament to sort the HW division out in Ali's absence. I wonder if the Quarry-Ellis winner (IOTL Ellis) fights Ali or if Frazier still gets the opportunity first after KOing Buster Mathis? I tend to think it would be Ellis, then Frazier still KOs Quarry and gets the title shot. Ali might even fight Dave Zyglewicz, though it would probably be a tune-up fight given that Zyglewicz's 28-1 record was VERY padded (hence why some commentators referred to him as the "mail-order heavyweight"). Whether Ali will look better or worse who knows? I haven't dug deep enough into Frazier's pre-championship record to have any confidence whether or not he would be worse against Ali if they fought in 1969 or '70 instead of '71? Maybe Ali fights Chuvalo earlier and people think see him as an underdog because he's unable to KO Chuvalo (who was incredibly durable, but the wider public probably wouldn't realise that).

How would you have Ali avoid getting stripped for draft dodging? Seemed like the powers that be would jump at any chance to bring down Ali at that time.
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Ellis, then Frazier seems very plausible to me.

But avoid getting stripped of the title it's the hard part. He needs to avoid conviction, then it's just a matter of the sporting world not interfering with politics. I mean, in my mind, it's still crazy how a sporting organization can take your title back because of political or legal stuff. If he's guilty of draft evasion, so be it, but he didn't lose the title in the ring and he didn't retire. But I need more research to see where to place the butterflies.

Heck, maybe no Vietnam war whatsoever...
 
Hrvatskiwi

Hrvatskiwi

carlosperezesp said:
But avoid getting stripped of the title it's the hard part. He needs to avoid conviction, then it's just a matter of the sporting world not interfering with politics. I mean, in my mind, it's still crazy how a sporting organization can take your title back because of political or legal stuff. If he's guilty of draft evasion, so be it, but he didn't lose the title in the ring and he didn't retire. But I need more research to see where to place the butterflies.
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Honestly, butterflying away the Vietnam War is probably easier than having Ali not be stripped for draft dodging. I think in that scenario Ali would still be very famous, but perhaps he wouldn't quite transcend the sport like he did IOTL.
I agree with you about stripping of the title being ridiculous but combat sports has always been deeply intertwined with politics (largely due to the ease of making great fighters a living metaphor). The Frazier-Ali rivalry makes that really apparent, and there are plenty of other examples like Joe Louis and Max Schmeling, or more recently the MAGA wave of UFC fighters.
 

carlosperezesp

Hrvatskiwi said:
Honestly, butterflying away the Vietnam War is probably easier than having Ali not be stripped for draft dodging. I think in that scenario Ali would still be very famous, but perhaps he wouldn't quite transcend the sport like he did IOTL.
I agree with you about stripping of the title being ridiculous but combat sports has always been deeply intertwined with politics (largely due to the ease of making great fighters a living metaphor). The Frazier-Ali rivalry makes that really apparent, and there are plenty of other examples like Joe Louis and Max Schmeling, or more recently the MAGA wave of UFC fighters.
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Hmmmm... This is how I see it:
  • Without Vietnam, he's still implicated in social rights. Therefore, there is some hate towards him, but still smaller than that IOTL.
  • He manages to compete from 1967-70. He looked invincible before that, so I imagine that if he kept winning he would've gained more popularity (unless he fights easy fighters, of course. Louis faced similar doubts at a certain point. If Ali's opponents don't look menacing enough, he won't be respected that much).
I need to investigate a bit more. Maybe no Vietnam is the way to go.

On a side note, another great scenario is Tyson not throwing away his career. Maybe D'Amato and Jacobs live longer to keep him away from Don King. The POD that I would love to see is a stable Tyson facing Holyfield before Buster Douglas.
 
Hrvatskiwi

Hrvatskiwi

PickledFish said:
What if Fedor went straight to the UFC after PRIDE collapsed?
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Ooooh, interesting one... At the time that Fedor historically had a fight with Matt Lindland at 'BoDogFIGHT' (jeezus, some of these early 2000s MMA company names...), Randy Couture had just pulled a huge upset by taking the UFC Heavyweight championship from Tim Sylvia in dominant fashion, becoming the oldest champion in UFC history at 43.
If Fedor goes over to the UFC, its hard to see him not getting put immediately in a title fight. The other possibility is doing a Cro Cop rematch in the UFC, with the winner getting a title shot, which would butterfly away Gonzaga . Given that this was around the point where Cro Cop was declining (I still can't stand watching that Gonzaga head-kick KO loss), Fedor would probably dominantly win that match. Either way, whether immediately or whether we still get Couture vs Gonzaga as IOTL, I think Fedor annihilates Couture. Couture is older, slower, smaller, less powerful, and with arguably less experience against top-level heavyweights.

Assuming Brock Lesnar is still given a title shot, I would favour Fedor to beat Lesnar, although he's enormous and therefore has a chance to get a good shot off and KO Fedor. What I think is more likely is Fedor weaving under a Brock hook, stunning him with a casting punch over the outside angle, Brock shooting, getting reversed by a judo throw by Fedor, and getting TKO'd on the ground. Fedor becomes a huge star in the US, but the UFC overall probably suffers financially (compared to OTL) by not having Brock as Heavyweight champ. MMA may be seen with a bit more respect though for not having a professional wrestler as UFC HW champ.

I guess then Fedor fights Nogueira for a fourth time, beats him then fights Mir and Carwin. They're both interesting fights that could go either way (especially Carwin with that enormous power), but I think Fedor's great top-control grappling and ground-and-pound gets him the win. Where things get really dicey is when we get to JDS and Cain. JDS probably has the best chance of nuking Fedor with an uppercut (like he did to Werdum in his UFC debut), but stylistically Fedor is a tough fight for him. Cain is the one where we'll probably see a real war. Cain had great cardio and good fundamentals, but doesn't have the power and short-burst speed of Fedor. Should be an absolute classic. By this time Fedor is coming into the fight with four title defences, setting the standard before the heavyweight title defence record is even set OTL (Stipe Miocic, 3).
How do you think Cain vs Fedor goes? How do you think Fedor would match up with other heavyweights like Overeem and Miocic (especially given that age will start being a massive factor)?
 

PickledFish

Hrvatskiwi said:
Ooooh, interesting one... At the time that Fedor historically had a fight with Matt Lindland at 'BoDogFIGHT' (jeezus, some of these early 2000s MMA company names...), Randy Couture had just pulled a huge upset by taking the UFC Heavyweight championship from Tim Sylvia in dominant fashion, becoming the oldest champion in UFC history at 43.
If Fedor goes over to the UFC, its hard to see him not getting put immediately in a title fight. The other possibility is doing a Cro Cop rematch in the UFC, with the winner getting a title shot, which would butterfly away Gonzaga . Given that this was around the point where Cro Cop was declining (I still can't stand watching that Gonzaga head-kick KO loss), Fedor would probably dominantly win that match. Either way, whether immediately or whether we still get Couture vs Gonzaga as IOTL, I think Fedor annihilates Couture. Couture is older, slower, smaller, less powerful, and with arguably less experience against top-level heavyweights.

Assuming Brock Lesnar is still given a title shot, I would favour Fedor to beat Lesnar, although he's enormous and therefore has a chance to get a good shot off and KO Fedor. What I think is more likely is Fedor weaving under a Brock hook, stunning him with a casting punch over the outside angle, Brock shooting, getting reversed by a judo throw by Fedor, and getting TKO'd on the ground. Fedor becomes a huge star in the US, but the UFC overall probably suffers financially (compared to OTL) by not having Brock as Heavyweight champ. MMA may be seen with a bit more respect though for not having a professional wrestler as UFC HW champ.

I guess then Fedor fights Nogueira for a fourth time, beats him then fights Mir and Carwin. They're both interesting fights that could go either way (especially Carwin with that enormous power), but I think Fedor's great top-control grappling and ground-and-pound gets him the win. Where things get really dicey is when we get to JDS and Cain. JDS probably has the best chance of nuking Fedor with an uppercut (like he did to Werdum in his UFC debut), but stylistically Fedor is a tough fight for him. Cain is the one where we'll probably see a real war. Cain had great cardio and good fundamentals, but doesn't have the power and short-burst speed of Fedor. Should be an absolute classic. By this time Fedor is coming into the fight with four title defences, setting the standard before the heavyweight title defence record is even set OTL (Stipe Miocic, 3).
How do you think Cain vs Fedor goes? How do you think Fedor would match up with other heavyweights like Overeem and Miocic (especially given that age will start being a massive factor)?
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I think Fedor would've lost to Cain. He was declining as Cain was coming up - compare their respective performances against Bigfoot.
 
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