The world would be a substantially better place
Europe would be an Andorran colony
"Minor Alternate History" PODs
- Thread starter oshron
- Start date
As it is it fell on the feast of Saint Steven, but alas not enough people celebrate the Second Day of Christmas for that to have the desired effect.
Here's what I was looking for. I did this some time ago. This seems like a reasonable thing to put in this thread.\
Moonlight on the Wabash – and the Maumee
What Really Happened:
The original capital of the state of Indiana was at Corydon, a few miles north of the Ohio River in about the center of the southern border. The state legislature, desirous of having a centrally located capital, chose a likely-looking spot in the center of the state from a map, gave it the name Indianapolis, and proceeded to found a new city and move the government there in 1824 (?).Point of Departure:
The state congress is better apprised of conditions at the proposed site – swamps, the White River is not navigable at that point - and decides it’s not worth the bother to move. They retain the capital at Corydon, promise to themselves to establish a couple of administrative centers in the northern part of the state, and leave the center of the state for farm towns. Note that there is still plenty of land development and city building in central Indiana; however, there is no dominant metro area which by the 21st century has grown to a million or so people.Possible impacts:
- State of Indiana more sympathetic toward Kentucky, rest of South
- More of a Copperhead faction in Indiana:
- Many still support the Underground Railroad
- Still remains in the Union
- Slight changes to American Civil War
- Fewer Indiana troops for ACW – lower population, keep a garrison at Corydon
- Grant loses at Shiloh (for want of a few more regiments); Sherman becomes dominant western general (assume Grant and Sherman both survive and are interchangeable with respect to their conduct of the western campaigns)
- Morgan’s Raid bypasses Corydon (too heavily defended) and otherwise plays out in Ohio as in OTL; they pick up about a company’s worth of Indiana volunteers who are fed up with the union
- Post-war:
- Indiana remains a bit of a backwater; farms prosper statewide, and factories flourish in the northern part of the state, but there is no sense of cohesion statewide.
- Even more of a KKK in Indiana:
- Southern Indiana acquires a particularly bad reputation for racial hatred during the post-war era and up to about 1920. It is common knowledge that the Klan controls the state government in Corydon.
- The Indiana House of Representatives (as in OTL!!) passes a bill in 1897 setting the value of pi (the ratio between the circumference and diameter of a circle) at 3.2 for ease of teaching in the schools; the state Senate kills the bill in committee but the reputation of the state government as a backwards group persists
- Benjamin Harrison never elected President
- Northern Indiana becomes more industrialized and more moderate; as the population center of the state moves north the bitter southern part of the state is marginalized
- Fort Wayne, in the northeastern part of the state, becomes a major manufacturing center and the state’s largest city; its relationship to Corydon parallels that between Chicago and Springfield in Illinois or between Las Vegas and Carson City, Nevada.
- Popular Culture (this is for fun – no fair invoking rules about the effects of the POD on future individuals!):
- Deliverance is set along the White River (but filmed elsewhere as there are no rapids worth mentioning – that’s Hollywood for you)
- Part of the automobile industry bypasses the state; The Akron 500 is the “Greatest Spectacle in Racing”
- The Oscar-nominated film Hilltoppers, featuring Gene Hackman as a small-town high school basketball coach leading his team to the state championship, is set in western Kentucky
- Southern-Indiana born Larry Bird becomes a legendary player, then coach, then general manger for the NBA (crossover from the ABA) Kentucky Colonels; he (still) does a particularly bad Ford truck commercial shortly after signing on as a player in 1979
- Fort Wayne becomes a larger manufacturing hub than it is in OTL; it retains the Pistons NBA franchise, which wins the 2004 championship
- Modern Era:
- A number of Amish communities are founded in southern Indiana
- Corydon is the smallest state capitol in the nation
- Gary, Indiana retains enough of a steel industry to revitalize and become a small-scale Pittsburgh
"What if the Japanese capital ships sunk at Kure in July 1945 weren't damaged or survived their damage?"
A minor pod since those ships didn't consist of the superior Akagi, Shinano, Shokaku and Kaga-class carriers or the superior Yamato-class battleships. However, assuming the Japanese surrender still proceeded as in reality, those inferior ships might be used on repatriation duty followed by scrapping or scuttling without salvage. Perhaps the more powerful capital vessels might be sent to Operation Crossroads and the less powerful light aircraft carriers, escort aircraft carriers, cruisers and destroyers (if seaworthy enough to do repatriation duties) would do repatriation duties before being scrapped.
A minor pod since those ships didn't consist of the superior Akagi, Shinano, Shokaku and Kaga-class carriers or the superior Yamato-class battleships. However, assuming the Japanese surrender still proceeded as in reality, those inferior ships might be used on repatriation duty followed by scrapping or scuttling without salvage. Perhaps the more powerful capital vessels might be sent to Operation Crossroads and the less powerful light aircraft carriers, escort aircraft carriers, cruisers and destroyers (if seaworthy enough to do repatriation duties) would do repatriation duties before being scrapped.
The Republican Party was not founded as "conservative": it advocated a radical social measure (restriction or abolition of slavery) and "progressive" (i.e. modernizing, forward-looking) measures such as Homestead, internal improvements, and a protective tariff. In the early 1900s, the Progressive movement was a Republican faction.
They're both from Massachusetts.
Germany was never called Prussia. Even during 1870-1918, the Kingdom of Prussia was considered a component of the German Empire, like Bavaria and Saxony. However... Perhaps the unification goes differently and the new state is called Prussia (possibly due to Austrian resistance to Prussia "usurping" the title of "Germany").
For the Prussian which faction the Linguists the social scientists or the mathematicians is more important to its reputation as a college town. So what if Gauss went to Jena or Heidelburg or Berlin instead of Gottingen? or Conversely Schleicher Humboldt the Grimms and Bopp are at a different university?
Do the linguists or the mathematicians drive Gottingen's development?
"What if Dedeagach was ceded to Greece during and after the Second Balkan War with a pod after its capture by Greece during that war?"
Then, the Greeks would have a border with the Ottoman Empire when WW1 started and could focus their attention on the Ottomans without territorial claims and violation of sovereignty against Bulgaria.
It would help if Greece made sure that the land connection between Salonika and Dedeagach was continuous to eliminate territorial claims and violation of sovereignty against Bulgaria and to allow Greek troops to be transported by land to Dedeagach and the Ottoman Empire without having to be shipped to avoid ship tonnage wastage and Bulgarian Aegean naval and soldier threats.
It also means that Dedeagach won't be bombed by Entente warships including the Askold.
Otherwise, it would be a minor pod that won't affect the outcome of the World Wars nor Dedeagach's history beyond 6 more years of Greek instead of Bulgarian rule, population and culture from 1913-1919. That is assuming minimal to no butterflies and no Bulgarian reconquest of Dedeagach at that time. Considering how Bulgaria received and lost Dedeagach in WW2 without using its military to receive Dedeagach nor retake Dedeagach, Bulgaria would likely receive and lose Dedeagach in WW2 both in otl and in this scenario with German and Italian aid for Bulgaria's receiving and loss of Dedeagach via a German, Italian and Bulgarian invasion of Greece in WW2.
Otherwise, this is a minor ah pod due to overall minimal butterflies.
Then, the Greeks would have a border with the Ottoman Empire when WW1 started and could focus their attention on the Ottomans without territorial claims and violation of sovereignty against Bulgaria.
It would help if Greece made sure that the land connection between Salonika and Dedeagach was continuous to eliminate territorial claims and violation of sovereignty against Bulgaria and to allow Greek troops to be transported by land to Dedeagach and the Ottoman Empire without having to be shipped to avoid ship tonnage wastage and Bulgarian Aegean naval and soldier threats.
It also means that Dedeagach won't be bombed by Entente warships including the Askold.
Otherwise, it would be a minor pod that won't affect the outcome of the World Wars nor Dedeagach's history beyond 6 more years of Greek instead of Bulgarian rule, population and culture from 1913-1919. That is assuming minimal to no butterflies and no Bulgarian reconquest of Dedeagach at that time. Considering how Bulgaria received and lost Dedeagach in WW2 without using its military to receive Dedeagach nor retake Dedeagach, Bulgaria would likely receive and lose Dedeagach in WW2 both in otl and in this scenario with German and Italian aid for Bulgaria's receiving and loss of Dedeagach via a German, Italian and Bulgarian invasion of Greece in WW2.
Otherwise, this is a minor ah pod due to overall minimal butterflies.
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during the 30YW, from 1613 to 1635, on the Italian front, numerous clashes were held to decree the dynastic fate of states such as Savoy and Monferrato, in particular Spain had floated since 1628 the idea of dividing the duchy of Monferrato with the his pro-Habsburg candidate at the Savoy court ( Tommaso Francesco ), how the medium-long term would have changed, with the Habsburgs coming into possession of a further surplus of capital ( both economic and manpower, given that the Monferrato army of era was made up of around 15 thousand soldiers ) and their ability to influence the region would be increased, compared to Otl ?
"What if destroyer Wakatsuki was sunk in June 1944 instead of November 1944 (either because USS Harder or USS Albacore hit the destroyer instead of missing it when attacking Wakatsuki and Taiho with missed torpedoes against them respectively)?"
Then, after the first torpedo strike on Taiho, USS Albacore does not need to avoid depth charges from Wakatsuki and can sink the Taiho, but faster and with its proven sight of Taiho's sinking than otl. Taiho also goes down and capsizes faster and with more deaths than otl. Otherwise, this is a minor ah pod due to overall minimal butterflies.
Then, after the first torpedo strike on Taiho, USS Albacore does not need to avoid depth charges from Wakatsuki and can sink the Taiho, but faster and with its proven sight of Taiho's sinking than otl. Taiho also goes down and capsizes faster and with more deaths than otl. Otherwise, this is a minor ah pod due to overall minimal butterflies.
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Something that might interest @kinnikuniverse, as the board's resident sports connoisseur: before the Italian association football championship was formally established, the country's gymnastics federation had been holding its own football tournament already; however, since the tournament was held under rules that were slightly different from those of the Football Association, by an organization that was not Italy's football federation (simply because this tournament pre-dated it), this championship isn't considered official.
Another thing that set it apart from the "canon" Italian football championship, was its location, as it was originally held in, and mostly featured teams from, the Northeast, rather than the Northwest. So, what if its 1896 and 1897 editions, won by Udinese and Alessandria, had been held under Football Association rules, with the FIGC's predecessor being born in Treviso, where the first edition was held? While some teams were able to find success in both tournaments ( teams such as Milan, that won most of the FGNI tournaments, or Andrea Doria, one of Sampdoria's predecessors) other teams, such as Alessandria, Udinese and Venezia were much more successful in the unofficial one.
Not to mention how some teams that are now defunct were able to win at least one of the FGNI championships during their run; would have they survived, even as the 1898 edition might've seen Genoa and some of the other "canonical" teams compete? And would've this earlier expansion of Italian football away from what once was Piedmont-Sardinia meant an earlier expansion of the same south of the Po river, too?
Another thing that set it apart from the "canon" Italian football championship, was its location, as it was originally held in, and mostly featured teams from, the Northeast, rather than the Northwest. So, what if its 1896 and 1897 editions, won by Udinese and Alessandria, had been held under Football Association rules, with the FIGC's predecessor being born in Treviso, where the first edition was held? While some teams were able to find success in both tournaments ( teams such as Milan, that won most of the FGNI tournaments, or Andrea Doria, one of Sampdoria's predecessors) other teams, such as Alessandria, Udinese and Venezia were much more successful in the unofficial one.
Not to mention how some teams that are now defunct were able to win at least one of the FGNI championships during their run; would have they survived, even as the 1898 edition might've seen Genoa and some of the other "canonical" teams compete? And would've this earlier expansion of Italian football away from what once was Piedmont-Sardinia meant an earlier expansion of the same south of the Po river, too?
Planet of Hats
Donor
What if the current Prime Minister of Canada was named Garry Trudeau, and the cartoonist behind Doonesbury was named Justin Trudeau?
What if Ronald Reagan had a giant mustache?
What if the Toronto Maple Leafs were called the Toronto Maple Leaves?
What if Fidel Castro preferred an Astrakhan cap instead of a patrol cap?
What if Ronald Reagan had a giant mustache?
What if the Toronto Maple Leafs were called the Toronto Maple Leaves?
What if Fidel Castro preferred an Astrakhan cap instead of a patrol cap?
I dunno if it's minor, but WI the tian yuan method of medieval Chinese algebra remains in use? IOTL it was a product of the late Song Dynasty for solving polynomial equations and was most notably expounded on by Yuan era mathematicians like Zhu Shijie and Li Zhi (the latter of whom was a rare example of a pre-17th century Chinese scientist proposing a round earth).
But the method fell out of use under the Ming who were generally skeptical toward Yuan scholars and the books were mostly unknown in China before Korean and Japanese copies were imported centuries later. If the Ming took a less critical approach (as they certainly did toward some aspects of Yuan governance and institutions) or the history of China after 1360 had gone differently, just how would Chinese mathematics have evolved and what ramifications would that have?
But the method fell out of use under the Ming who were generally skeptical toward Yuan scholars and the books were mostly unknown in China before Korean and Japanese copies were imported centuries later. If the Ming took a less critical approach (as they certainly did toward some aspects of Yuan governance and institutions) or the history of China after 1360 had gone differently, just how would Chinese mathematics have evolved and what ramifications would that have?
-What if they didn't destroy the Delorimier stadium and expanded it to major league level? Would we have an MLB team in Downtown Montreal much sooner?
-what if Montreal didn't win the Olympics in 1976, but somewhere else instead (Toronto?)? What would the city of Montreal look like without the Olympic park? Would the Expos have moved away much earlier than IRL?
-what if Canada was never french? Would the Habs have stayed a good team without language politics? (I am French Canadian myself, i literally live right besides Montreal in Longueuil.)
-what if Montreal didn't win the Olympics in 1976, but somewhere else instead (Toronto?)? What would the city of Montreal look like without the Olympic park? Would the Expos have moved away much earlier than IRL?
-what if Canada was never french? Would the Habs have stayed a good team without language politics? (I am French Canadian myself, i literally live right besides Montreal in Longueuil.)
Among the less known fiefdoms of the Empire in Italy are the duchies of Massa, Sabbioneta, Bozzolo, the States of Pallavicino, Landi, the marquisate of Zibello and the small Po Valley principalities including Correggio, all of them from 1635 until the occupation Napoleonic era in one way or another they were actors in regional politics and bargaining pawns of the major local princes, what would happen if a good part of them fell into Habsburg hands
The bird and baby never opens. This is actually a major one for pop culture as it means no Narnia no Howl and no LOTR
Lord Byron is a better dad which is actually a major PoD that only appears minor when you forget his daughter was the first programmer ever.'Another deceptively minor looking PoD is no Villa Diodati Horror contest.
Lord Byron is a better dad which is actually a major PoD that only appears minor when you forget his daughter was the first programmer ever.'Another deceptively minor looking PoD is no Villa Diodati Horror contest.
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WHAT IF: Seydlitz sunk at Jutland
What if battlecruiser Seydlitz was sunk at Jutland? Pods are and can be 1. receiving extra shell hits or another torpedo for damage 2. Trying to keep up with Moltke and steam at 20t knots, maybe not even running aground just in time to save it. Maybe, not finishing repairs to the mine damage...
www.alternatehistory.com
Action of 5 November 1916 - Wikipedia
SMS Seydlitz - Wikipedia
"What if Seydlitz was torpedoed and sunk by HMS J1 instead of damage to the Kronprinz and Grosser Kurfurst?"
The effects will be the same as the thread linked above here, but Seydlitz's repairs for Jutland damage would be wasted in net effect. The Kronprinz and Grosser Kurfurst might avoid damage (torpedoing Seydlitz might mean HMS J1 would be in the wrong position and unable to torpedo Kronprinz and Grosser Kurfurst), but even if the latter consequence were the result of this pod, otl's non-fatal torpedo damage of Kronprinz and Grosser Kurfurst and this pod's torpedoing of Seydlitz could have been avoided simply with the Germans deciding not to send their dreadnoughts and battlecruisers to rescue U-30 and U-20 in the first place. Since Seydlitz's presence in the aforementioned action of 5 November 1916 with HMS J1 torpedoing Kronprinz and Grosser Kurfurst was disputed, Seydlitz can be substituted with Moltke as discussed here.
In addition, the first (and likely only) submarine sinking of a dreadnought or a battlecruiser in WW1 would encourage submarine torpedo attacks with the intent of sinking dreadnoughts and battlecruisers during WW1 and later in both hypotheticals, planning, training and action.
Otherwise, this is a minor ah pod due to overall minimal butterflies.
Jutland avoided
I have seen a lot of threads about differing outcomes to the battle of Jutland, and it seems to me that little overall difference occurs whether or not a few more dreadnoughts are lost on one side or the other. (For timelines within the bounds of accepted realism) A much more interesting...
www.alternatehistory.com
What if SMS Moltke was sunk by its torpedo hit in August 1915?"
The pod might butterfly Jutland (see the "Jutland Avoided" thread here in this post) or might result in Jutland proceeding as in otl, but possibly with the Seydlitz damaged even worse than otl (and likely sinking, see the first and highest hyperlink provided here in this post). The latter consequence would make this a minor ah pod due to overall minimal butterflies, the former consequence might make this pod too major to be minor due to the consequences' significance (see the "Jutland Avoided" thread here in this post).
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"What if Lutzow survived Jutland?"
In this case, the Lutzow might be repaired after severe damage and returned to service in 1917, after repairing its severe damage and the severe damage of other German battlecruisers at Jutland. In this case, the Lutzow's survival would add support to the German victory claims at Jutland, the survival of extra crew might have effects further down the line and the Lutzow would be scuttled at Scapa Flow in (June) 1919, assuming its survival and the subsequent lack of German battlecruiser and dreadnought losses wouldn't make the Germans confident enough to engage the Royal Navy's battleships gun-to-gun or even confident enough to avoid unrestricted submarine warfare and WW1 defeat despite no longer engaging the Royal Navy's battleships gun-to-gun.
"What if Von Der Tann, Moltke, Derfflinger or one of the German dreadnoughts was sunk at Jutland?"
Similar consequences to the link about Seydlitz's loss at Jutland, but otherwise, this is a minor ah pod due to overall minimal butterflies.
"What if HMS Invincible, HMS Queen Mary or HMS Indefatigable avoided exploding at Jutland?"
Likely the pod will be minor enough with minimal to 0 butterflies other than crew survival from the ships, the ships' future usage and preservation or disposal and the deflating of German victory at Jutland claims. If the HMS Invincible or the HMS Indefatigable avoided exploding, the exploding of the other battlecruiser and HMS Queen Mary would cause minimal butterflies by exposing weaknesses in all Royal Navy battlecruisers. However, if the Queen Mary avoided exploding, the butterflies, by allowing the Royal Navy to think only the battlecruisers with 6-inches of armour such as HMS Invincible and HMS Indefatigable would be vulnerable to magazine explosions, would allow the Royal Navy to armour HMS Hood with 9-inches of armour instead of 12-inches even if the remaining Admiral-class battlecruisers were cancelled incomplete.
"What if the British lost one more capital ship at Jutland compared to otl?"
en.wikipedia.org
It depends on the capital ship in question. A flagship would be more important in consequences due to its ability to command engagement at Jutland and later, otherwise, HMS Collingwood's loss would be important by eliminating King George VI with an earlier than otl death and losing one more 15 inch-gunned ship, due to the ship's WW2 and WW1 usage, newness as of Jutland and heavier armament, would have more important consequences compared to the minor ah pod and butterflies involving the extra capital ship loss being from the 13.5/ 14 inch- and smaller gunned non-flagship capital ships except for HMS Collingwood as mentioned.
All the consequences also require the side losing the extra capital ships compared to otl at Jutland not to take more or fewer alternate losses other than the single capital ship implied in this post's pods and the other side to not lose more or fewer ships than otl at Jutland for the pods and the pods' minor status with minimal to 0 ah butterflies from the pods to work.
In this case, the Lutzow might be repaired after severe damage and returned to service in 1917, after repairing its severe damage and the severe damage of other German battlecruisers at Jutland. In this case, the Lutzow's survival would add support to the German victory claims at Jutland, the survival of extra crew might have effects further down the line and the Lutzow would be scuttled at Scapa Flow in (June) 1919, assuming its survival and the subsequent lack of German battlecruiser and dreadnought losses wouldn't make the Germans confident enough to engage the Royal Navy's battleships gun-to-gun or even confident enough to avoid unrestricted submarine warfare and WW1 defeat despite no longer engaging the Royal Navy's battleships gun-to-gun.
"What if Von Der Tann, Moltke, Derfflinger or one of the German dreadnoughts was sunk at Jutland?"
WHAT IF: Seydlitz sunk at Jutland
What if battlecruiser Seydlitz was sunk at Jutland? Pods are and can be 1. receiving extra shell hits or another torpedo for damage 2. Trying to keep up with Moltke and steam at 20t knots, maybe not even running aground just in time to save it. Maybe, not finishing repairs to the mine damage...
www.alternatehistory.com
Similar consequences to the link about Seydlitz's loss at Jutland, but otherwise, this is a minor ah pod due to overall minimal butterflies.
"What if HMS Invincible, HMS Queen Mary or HMS Indefatigable avoided exploding at Jutland?"
Likely the pod will be minor enough with minimal to 0 butterflies other than crew survival from the ships, the ships' future usage and preservation or disposal and the deflating of German victory at Jutland claims. If the HMS Invincible or the HMS Indefatigable avoided exploding, the exploding of the other battlecruiser and HMS Queen Mary would cause minimal butterflies by exposing weaknesses in all Royal Navy battlecruisers. However, if the Queen Mary avoided exploding, the butterflies, by allowing the Royal Navy to think only the battlecruisers with 6-inches of armour such as HMS Invincible and HMS Indefatigable would be vulnerable to magazine explosions, would allow the Royal Navy to armour HMS Hood with 9-inches of armour instead of 12-inches even if the remaining Admiral-class battlecruisers were cancelled incomplete.
"What if the British lost one more capital ship at Jutland compared to otl?"
Royal Navy takes heavier losses at Jutland
The British suffered some near misses from torpedoes at Jutland that could have been quite painful. The POD is that Lady Luck is not so kind to the British and the near misses turn into hits. / List of near-misses for British at Jutland: / 1) Torpedo hit but did not explode on Revenge...
www.alternatehistory.com
HMS Collingwood (1908) - Wikipedia
It depends on the capital ship in question. A flagship would be more important in consequences due to its ability to command engagement at Jutland and later, otherwise, HMS Collingwood's loss would be important by eliminating King George VI with an earlier than otl death and losing one more 15 inch-gunned ship, due to the ship's WW2 and WW1 usage, newness as of Jutland and heavier armament, would have more important consequences compared to the minor ah pod and butterflies involving the extra capital ship loss being from the 13.5/ 14 inch- and smaller gunned non-flagship capital ships except for HMS Collingwood as mentioned.
All the consequences also require the side losing the extra capital ships compared to otl at Jutland not to take more or fewer alternate losses other than the single capital ship implied in this post's pods and the other side to not lose more or fewer ships than otl at Jutland for the pods and the pods' minor status with minimal to 0 ah butterflies from the pods to work.
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Spanish East Indies - Wikipedia
WI: British Keep Philippines in 1763
What if the British keep the Philippines, and do not trade them for Minorca at the Treaty of Paris? Or Britain is more successful in the Seven Years War against Spain and keeps both territories? What would be the effects on the American Revolution? Would the increased revenue from the new...
www.alternatehistory.com
"What happens to the Spanish East Indies if the Spanish lost Manila to the British permanently after the Seven Years War?"
The Spanish East Indies, through trade with Mexico, could still be administered by Mexico. However, after Mexico's independence, sometime in the 1830s, the Spanish would have to surrender the Spanish East Indies to the British with the British having Manila and the rest of the Philippines for administrative reasons. Overall effects are similar to the thread linked above (for the Philippines and the world other than the Spanish East Indies) and minimal butterflies (for the non-Filipino portions of the Spanish East Indies), for both the Philippines, the rest of the Spanish East Indies and the rest of the world.