Medieval European caste system based on curse of ham

would commercial and industrial revolutions still happen ?

  • yes

    Votes: 7 31.8%
  • no

    Votes: 10 45.5%
  • commercial but not industrial

    Votes: 5 22.7%

  • Total voters
    22

octoberman

Banned
what if a caste system was established in Medieval Europe based on serfs inheriting the curse of ham ?

In Medieval Europe, the curse of Ham also became used as a justification for serfdom. Honorius Augustodunensis (c. 1100) was the first recorded to propose a caste system associating Ham with serfdom, writing that serfs were descended from Ham, nobles from Japheth, and free men from Shem.

what if became a doctrine of catholic and orthodox churches and used to establish a caste system like Rigvedic Purusha Sukta (RV 10.90.11–12), which has the Brahman(priests), Kshatriya(warriors), Vaishya(businessmen) and Shudra(laborers) forming the mouth, arms, thighs and feet at the sacrifice of the primordial Purusha, respectively was used in india ?

how would this effect the social and economic development of Europe?
 
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what if a caste system was established in Medieval Europe based on serfs inheriting the curse of ham ?

In Medieval Europe, the curse of Ham also became used as a justification for serfdom. Honorius Augustodunensis (c. 1100) was the first recorded to propose a caste system associating Ham with serfdom, writing that serfs were descended from Ham, nobles from Japheth, and free men from Shem.
It would have interesting effects on attitudes to Jews (Shemites)
 
TBH I'm not sure you'd need to have a Curse of Ham-based theory to justify it (and I'm not sure such a theory would gain widespread acceptance anyway) -- simply having a surviving (and more rigid) system of serfdom would be enough, surely?
 

octoberman

Banned
TBH I'm not sure you'd need to have a Curse of Ham-based theory to justify it (and I'm not sure such a theory would gain widespread acceptance anyway) -- simply having a surviving (and more rigid) system of serfdom would be enough, surely?
but it won't be caste because serf families weren't irredeemable forever unlike Shudra
 

prani

Banned
Rigvedic Purusha Sukta (RV 10.90.11–12), which has the Brahman(priests), Kshatriya(warriors), Vaishya(businessmen) and Shudra(laborers) forming the mouth, arms, thighs and feet at the sacrifice of the primordial Purusha, respectively was used in india ?
Ok? But that verse never said one is superior over the other or one was more important than the other, it just said all sections of society are equally important.
What formed the basis of Hindu caste system wasn't that verse, it was the theory of karma and birth and rebirth, you'll never find any Dharma Shastra or Sutra or mimansa or abhyasa, quoting that verse, they all say it's because of the karma of individuals past life that determines once jati and Varna in present life.
but it won't be caste because serf families weren't irredeemable forever unlike Shudra
Shudra as individual would never have the chance of rising through the ranks, but his clan and his tribe/jati often did by getting some sort of upper caste patron eg: by getting recognised as a Brahmin or kshatriya by a safe or people simply recognising them as a particular caste and not as shudra. And that's normal because south Asia just like every other place barring Europe, clans were the basis of social organisation and not family.

You had the Marathas who were a bunch of farmers and shudra by caste becoming kshatriya, so did the rajputs they began as a admixture of outcasts and farmers who rose through the ranks to become kshatriya, most of the Brahmins of magadha desh began shudra who became Brahmins during the reign of Delhi sultanate these were the prominent examples.

As for the idea of op, it's difficult to implement a caste system in Christian Europe because the catholic Church successfully destroyed the clan system and made individual families as basis of social organisation, which makes it that much more difficult to maintain the caste order and eventually would dissolve into class.
 

octoberman

Banned
Ok? But that verse never said one is superior over the other or one was more important than the other, it just said all sections of society are equally important.
it does in the version in yajurveda vii. 1. 1. From his feet he meted out the Ekavinça Stoma. After it the Anustubh metre [5] was created, the Vairaja Saman, of men the Çudra, of cattle the horse. Therefore the two, the horse and the Çudra, are dependent on others. Therefore the Çudra is not fit for the sacrifice, for he was not created after any gods. Therefore they depend on their feet, for they were created from the feet.
Shudra as individual would never have the chance of rising through the ranks, but his clan and his tribe/jati often did by getting some sort of upper caste patron eg: by getting recognised as a Brahmin or kshatriya by a safe or people simply recognising them as a particular caste and not as shudra. And that's normal because south Asia just like every other place barring Europe, clans were the basis of social organisation and not family.
they don't transition from sudhra they faked the geneology
You had the Marathas who were a bunch of farmers and shudra by caste becoming kshatriya,
which was rejected by Brahmin who refused to crown maratha kings
As for the idea of op, it's difficult to implement a caste system in Christian Europe because the catholic Church successfully destroyed the clan system and made individual families as basis of social organisation, which makes it that much more difficult to maintain the caste order and eventually would dissolve into class.
what can be done to change the attitude of the church ?
 

prani

Banned
they don't transition from sudhra they faked the geneology
'And that's unique to South Asia's Caste system?
Anyway like it brings back to my point that caste system is thing that's unique to India, the 5 ranks stayed the same but the Jati ( communities, tribes, clans what have you not) made up those ranks, kept moving up and down depending upon what they did, so a Jati moved through a rank, so the Brahmin or the kshatriya would not have any meaning without the Jatis that constituted those ranks, so a "Shudra" cannot move up the rank because a Shudra is not a Jati, a Maratha is a Jati and they moved up to become Kshatriya, a Shudra is a Rank.

And these Jatis are basically extended clans system, you kept track of membership through kinship and marriage. In Christian Europe with Tribal Kinship being broken by the Catholic Church by banning even extended cousin marriages, how would people keep track as to the caste of a particular man or a woman, as soon as you break a tribal kinship, family becomes the basis of societal organization and it would require a complex bureaucracy to keep track as to who is who, or may be a rudimentary system like tattooing a man or a woman to indicate his or her caste in the society? that too requires a level of bureaucracy that was absent in Europe at the time, so the entire things becomes a complicated mess in the absence of clan system because at the end of the day caste had a socio economic function too and not just a religious function. It was the basis of division of labour and distribution of production and management of the economy that evolved organically probably from the days of Indus Valley civilization since we find the residence in cities of those civilization organized around occupation, which is why you can't compare the caste system to that of European feudalism. They are different, in their origin and evolution and purpose and the supposed similarities are often used by Marxists to their political ends, and they often ignored the important difference between the two
In feudalism, you as an individual can rise in rank, you can become a Knight or you can become a monk in the church, and your social standing improves, but the members of your community certainly will not improve their rank and they in all probability will remain there.
However in a caste system you as an individual cannot improve your rank in the social standing but your community over few years can improve themselves, and this happened even during the 20the century, where tribes in Himachal got the rank of Kshatriyas by their participation in the British Indian Army and by sanskritizing themselves, so you moved up the social ladder with you community.

which was rejected by Brahmin who refused to crown maratha kings
You mean Shivaji, I mean they crowned his descendants as Chhatrapati's. Besides didn't Gaga Bhatt preside over Shivaji's ceremony ceremony while other's refused. So he did find a Patron and by coronating Shivaji other Marathas became Kshatriyas, yes you did have people ( I think Chitpavan Brahmins ?) who refused to recognize it but their refusal does mean that some Brahmins did recognize the Marathas as Kshatriya, remember Brahmins were never a united faction in politics.

As for reasons why it was refused it's not just the caste, there was theological reasons other than the caste and there were pollical reasons too.

what can be done to change the attitude of the church ?
I'm not an expert on Catholic Theology, all I am saying is for a Caste system you need tribes and clans and in the absence of the two you'll just end up with a rigid class system
 
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octoberman

Banned
You mean Shivaji, I mean they crowned his descendants as Chhatrapati's. Besides didn't Gaga Bhatt preside over Shivaji's ceremony ceremony while other's refused. So he did find a Patron and by coronating Shivaji other Marathas became Kshatriyas, yes you did have people ( I think Chitpavan Brahmins ?) who refused to recognize it but their refusal does mean that some Brahmins did recognize the Marathas as Kshatriya, remember Brahmins were never a united faction in politics.
i actually meant Shahu II who was refused coronation by brahmins and he responded by abolishing caste discrimination breaking the wheel
 

prani

Banned
i actually meant Shahu II who was refused coronation by brahmins and he responded by abolishing caste discrimination breaking the wheel
Yeah .......but i have also read that it was in retaliation by Brahmins for the desecration of shardha Math in sringeri, they killed Brahmins and looted the temple, ironically they were lead by Brahmins themselves, just proves my point, Indian history ain't black and white.
Anyway we are getting off topic
 

octoberman

Banned
Yeah .......but i have also read that it was in retaliation by Brahmins for the desecration of shardha Math in sringeri, they killed Brahmins and looted the temple, ironically they were lead by Brahmins themselves, just proves my point, Indian history ain't black and white.
Anyway we are getting off topic
but the event i describe happened in 1894 in the british era
 
Medieval Europe already had a cast system though? India is not unique in this. Most Indo-European cultures had one of those. We see similar structures in the Roman Empire, Germanic peoples, the Celts and the Iranians. The word "cast-system" is loaded with orientalizing nonsense made up by the 19th century English people to distinguish their own social inequalities from those present in India.
 

octoberman

Banned
Medieval Europe already had a cast system though? India is not unique in this. Most Indo-European cultures had one of those. We see similar structures in the Roman Empire, Germanic peoples, the Celts and the Iranians. The word "cast-system" is loaded with orientalizing nonsense made up by the 19th century English people to distinguish their own social inequalities from those present in India.
i haven't read a more wrong statement .Medieval Europe has a class system not caste
 
You only really get genetic caste systems if you have a *hard* barrier against intermarriage. It is not possible at all without people becoming the totally disenfranchised class outside society.

If you have something more like:

"Well, this serf can marry a peasant, who can marry a gentry, who can marry a noble, who can marry a king",

then you pretty much have genetic mobility possible with 5 generations from peasant-to-king. Although this may be rare, you consider the sheer number of peasants relative to kings and it becomes statistically quite likely for a king to have a peasant ancestor within at least 500 years (15 generations). Particularly if you go, about illegitimacy with a lower class person, "And the king's bastard can be a noble, and the noble's bastard can be gentry", etc. (Like Billy the Bastard, son of a Normandy tanner's daughter).

In Medieval Europe's system (and Europe as far back as we have dna), this sort of mobility probably existed. (Barring some weird cousin-marriage inbred dynasties that we commonly more exception than rule). The distinctive thing about the Hindu system is that the "serf" jati can't marry the "peasant" jati (to the extent these classes are analogous), etc. Or at least not at rates higher than something like 1/1000 or something super-low, while intermarriage between classes is probably 1/20 to 1/10 in something in Europe.
 

prani

Banned
but the event i describe happened in 1894 in the british era
You gotta specify man, there are three shahus lol, i go by the chatrapati, anyway my stand is correct, probably by the late 19th century Brahmins thought they were not kshatriya for some reason. I'll read up on that because my specialization is bronze age and iron age India, modern Indian history is something i avoid like the plague given how controversial it is, anyway let's continue this on chat modern history is irrelevant here
 
class and caste are a world away from each other
Exactly.
Caste is a form of social stratification characterised by endogamy, hereditary transmission of a style of life which often includes an occupation, ritual status in a hierarchy, and customary social interaction and exclusion based on cultural notions of purity and pollution - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste, acc. 13:08, central european time, 8. Oct. 2022
This fits the medieval european hierarchy pretty well. You inherit your cast from your parents and marry within tthat same group. Your estate determines what kind of job you can get, what your position in the hierarchy is relative to everyone else and how you are supposed to talk with whom. Serfs marry serfs, freemen marry freemen and nobles marry nobles. And fraternising with people outside of your estate was considered vulgar.
 
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