Mayflower lands in New York Harbor

[VT45]

So when the Mayflower set off for the New World, they had their sights set on the northernmost part of what was Virginia at the time, specifically the mouth of the Hudson River. But because of storms blowing them off course, they landed first at Provincetown and then Plymouth in Massachusetts.

But what would've happened had they landed in New York Harbor like they had originally planned to do, and set up their settlement of New Plymouth in Lower Manhattan?

 

[Umbric Man]

Honestly, I suspect it'd be vaguely but definitely similar to OTL's history:

1) Dutch New Netherlands didn't last THAT long in the grand scheme of things. It started in 1624 and was captured in 1664, and was always very underpopulated. Even its biggest boost came only shortly before the capture, to say nothing it had a large chunk of Yankees living in it already. It was noticeable to New England, yes - but could never threaten it at all, the way it absorbed New Sweden.

2) Plymouth Colony itself was already a sect of Puritans who were a bit separate from mainstream Puritans in belief, but they, like the Dutch, were on the more trader-commercial side (they founded Cushnoc, Maine as a fur-trading settlement and scouted Connecticut for the same purpose), and vaguely more tolerant. This harbor is everything they'd want in a traders' dream. *New Plymouth City like NYC will be a commercialized city from the get-go, attracting all sorts of people the way New Amsterdam did. Still definitely English/Yankee, but genuinely more cosmopolitan and financial than New England proper, even OTL Plymouth Colony (who had many non-Separatists in their midst for settling purposes compared to the Puritans Proper being almost ENTIRELY Puritan).

3) OTL Plymouth Colony was already erring to religious tolerance and even freedom, and barely DIDN'T pass religious freedom locally around the early 1640s. I can see *New Plymouth Colony/City passing it with how much more people it would have by default, as well as the more varied populace supporting it.

4) The Province of New York in our world was already lagging behind New England even with its favorable harbor and financial prospects, I can't see why NPC would be different, especially considering Plymouth Colony in OTL already lagged behind Massachusetts and Connecticut population-wise.

5) New Plymouth probably claims New Netherlands' OTL claimed border of the Delaware River, which was partly why it conquered New Sweden. Sweden ignored the Dutch claims, here the powerful and local expanded New Englander presence (via NPC and their direct connection to the other New Englanders) will force them to ignore the area. So OTL PA/DE/NJ are probably officially part of New Plymouth Colony/City, but completely unsettled - then in the royal takeover of New England charter-wise in the 1660s gets split off and given to William Penn and the New Jersey proprietors ANYWAY.

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Essentially? It's an English-founded-and-controlled New Netherland to me. Differences in the details, yes - New Plymouth will definitively be considered New England alongside OTL New England Proper. It'll be a bit chunk less ethnic than New Netherland. The English won't have to send a fleet in 1664. The Plymouth Colony legend will be even stronger in TTL since New Plymouth will still exist. It's fun to imagine the northern USA will have its "first settlement" also be the absolute biggest the way such things happen in a Civilization-style strategy game.

But the Plymouth colonists were probably the most ambitiously commercial of the Puritans, just the way the Dutch colonists were commercial; and they had trouble raising population and attracting immigration just the way the Dutch colonists compared to the Puritans Proper that founded all the Yankee colonies from Boston; and they were quite tolerant compared to Puritans Proper, which may allow small amounts of non-Puritan immigrants to settle there and give a more cosmopolitan feel to the colony versus Massachusetts or Connecticut (and like Rhode Island, by contrast). It'll be given a royal charter in the Restoration since it's too big to ignore compared to reality, and that'll take away its non-*New York land since it has Long Island+the Hudson Valley already. In a lot of ways it's just to me New Netherlands, just under English control from the get-go and a bit less ethnic and tolerant at first, and gradually taking up more and more of OTL New York's character due to its wonderful geography and Plymouth Colonists' ambitions actually being fulfillable and their own initial tolerance gradually expanding.

 

[DominusNovus]

I think it would be safe to say that the alt-Plymouth colony would not be subsumed by any of its neighbors, unlike its historical counterpart.

There are few better natural locations for a city in the entire world than Manhattan. The historical Plymouth is a decent enough location, but New York is a whole other league.

It would be interesting to see the cultural developments. I could see this alt-Plymouth exerting more influence over the surrounding small colonies, alt-New Jersey and alt-New Haven. Perhaps, with an earlier firm English settlement, and a more stable population growth, alt-Plymouth might extend to the Connecticut river up to, say, modern Holyoke, MA. The local geography in that part of the river makes a convenient beaking point.

 

[Unknown]

So the history of the colonies will be somewhat similar to OTL?

 

[VT45]

I think you're mostly right, but one thing makes me wonder. IIRC, Manhattan was technically within Virginia's claim of territory. And while Jamestown was still hundreds of miles away, legally speaking they'd technically be part of the same colony. So there's no need to draft the Mayflower Compact or petition the king for a colonial charter. What repercussions would these facts have on the development of New Plymouth?

 

[Donald Reaver]

Does that butterfly Thanksgiving as a U.S. holiday?

 

[VT45]

Well the fact that Squanto would be hundreds of miles away would definitely mean the first winter probably goes much worse for the Pilgrims. I don't know how the Lenape would respond to this. Anyone here know anything about early relations between Europeans and the Lenape?

 

[Umbric Man]

I think you're mostly right, but one thing makes me wonder. IIRC, Manhattan was technically within Virginia's claim of territory. And while Jamestown was still hundreds of miles away, legally speaking they'd technically be part of the same colony. So there's no need to draft the Mayflower Compact or petition the king for a colonial charter. What repercussions would these facts have on the development of New Plymouth?

With the exception of Massachusetts, the New England colonies were such legal messes till the Restoration (and a bit later with New Hampshire) that I'm frankly not worried about New Plymouth's legal situation vis-a-vis Virginia proper. It's not only far too inefficient for Jamestown to claim control over New Plymouth, the settlers were of a different group versus the specific settlers the Virginia Company were bringing to Virginia Proper. Hell, Plymouth Colony in OTL kept chugging along with barely a patent (they were at least settled under the Plymouth Company's legal aegis and fulfilled its conditions for gaining de-jure recognition in its eyes, which was their main claim to legality) even when royal officials up to the 1680s offered a full-fledged royal charter to Plymouth it dumbly turned down because it didn't want to give an inch of concession!

I fully expect de-facto recognition between the English colonists of New Plymouth as a separate colony, the way the New England colonies that got along with each other recognized one other de-jure no matter their actual legal status (New Haven was a complete and utter joke compared to the non-Massachusetts colonies, not even having the Plymouth Company patent Plymouth had, or Connecticut's claim of Saybrook's patent, or Rhode Island's Parliamentarian patent, yet was happily included in the New England Confederation till Connecticut seized the chance to swallow it up since it was on nominal Saybrook land). Maybe throw in a Parliamentarian patent the way Rhode Island got one in OTL as a tide-over due to NP's TTL importance until the post-Restoration sees it gaining a full royal charter of some form. If not in the immediate 1660s Restoration times alongside Connecticut and Rhode Island, then in the 1690s alongside Massachusetts in finally being forced to submit to proper royal control.

Well the fact that Squanto would be hundreds of miles away would definitely mean the first winter probably goes much worse for the Pilgrims. I don't know how the Lenape would respond to this. Anyone here know anything about early relations between Europeans and the Lenape?

No way to tell, but this isn't the region of Powhatan's Confederacy and all the distrustful imperialism therein. I suspect not full-fledged generosity as Squanto showed, but a cross of trade and pity by the locals to help tide over the New Plymothians, since the selling of Manhattan Island went peacefully enough and New Amsterdam never suffered that hard even in the early days. Maybe more ample fishing and ability to reach to Jamestown or even England for supplies that much sooner compared to New England proper. Possibly rougher than OTL but low-key enough to not wipe the colony out if it is.

 

[Umbric Man]

Final pointless, maybe fun side note: I have no doubt in this world New Plymouth will never, EVER drop the "New" from the name, because compared to OTL Plymouth, MA it's gonna become THE American city and thus need to be differentiated from English Plymouth, which was an important city even to the modern age and was even moreso back in the Age of Sail/Discovery/Colonialism. York/New York is an absolutely sensible parallel (even if that was technically named for the Duke, not the city).

Meanwhile, TTL Plymouth, MA can actually keep the very same name because 1) the site was named (New) Plymouth by John Smith in his map of New England created pre-POD, 2) it'll be a minor town like in OTL and so doesn't need to be differentiated compared to TTL's New Plymouth City and Colony and will drop any "New" like in reality, and 3) New England has many of the same town names spread across its states, and as point two established it's technically a different toponym from NEW Plymouth.

 

[VT45]

I'm liking this idea. Maybe I'll write something up for it. Turn it into a proper TL.

 

[DominusNovus]

Final pointless, maybe fun side note: I have no doubt in this world New Plymouth will never, EVER drop the "New" from the name, because compared to OTL Plymouth, MA it's gonna become THE American city and thus need to be differentiated from English Plymouth, which was an important city even to the modern age and was even moreso back in the Age of Sail/Discovery/Colonialism. York/New York is an absolutely sensible parallel (even if that was technically named for the Duke, not the city).

Meanwhile, TTL Plymouth, MA can actually keep the very same name because 1) the site was named (New) Plymouth by John Smith in his map of New England created pre-POD, 2) it'll be a minor town like in OTL and so doesn't need to be differentiated compared to TTL's New Plymouth City and Colony and will drop any "New" like in reality, and 3) New England has many of the same town names spread across its states, and as point two established it's technically a different toponym from NEW Plymouth.

I disagree regarding the name. Just look at the names of every single city in Massachusetts that are named for English cities. None have 'new' in their names, except those which share a name with another Massachusetts city (Bedford/New Bedford, Salem/New Salem, etc).

 

[VT45]

But then you look at cities that are both major cities in New England and the UK, and they keep the "new," such as New London.

 

[Umbric Man]

I disagree regarding the name. Just look at the names of every single city in Massachusetts that are named for English cities. None have 'new' in their names, except those which share a name with another Massachusetts city (Bedford/New Bedford, Salem/New Salem, etc).

Oh, I didn't know that, good to know.

I meant why you could still have a New Plymouth City and Colony (TTL's New York) and a separate Plymouth, MA in Massachusetts in the same world (even if it means that the people who found TTL's Plymouth, MA will make it far different in character to the OTL Plymouth, MA and TTL New Plymouth/New York founded by the Pilgrims). There's New Plymouth City, NP (AKA TTL's *New York) and the no-adjective Plymouth, MA on the same map, so to speak. Hopefully this makes sense...

 

[VT45]

So what happens when the Dutch show up in 1624?

 

[DominusNovus]

So what happens when the Dutch show up in 1624?

I'm pretty sure the Pilgrims had already had an agreement with the Dutch that they could settle there, so they'd probably go somewhere else.

 

[Umbric Man]

I'm pretty sure the Pilgrims had already had an agreement with the Dutch that they could settle there, so they'd probably go somewhere else.

Already settled and Dutch fell back from Connecticut in OTL with slight pressure. They won't argue.

I always had a fondness that the would-be people and energy put into New Netherlands would be put into Dutch Brazil, and the combo of extra people that would have been New Netherlanders and competent hardasses like Stuveysant allow New Holland to have a real chance to survive.

 

[Unknown]

I'd like to see a TL with this premise someday...

 

[Umbric Man]

Me too, but I always felt New Plymouth would be so surprisingly parallel to OTL New York that American history would play quite similar to reality, just with *New York clearly a part of TTL's New England and a bit more Anglo-American than reality. Granted, I tend to be conservative on butterflies when possible, but it struck me how... similar the Pilgrims and New Netherlands were in both character and the history of their colonies: ambitious, commercial, semi-tolerant for the age, yet underpopulated and absorbed by haughty and far more successful Puritans (granted the Pilgrims were only slightly different Puritans, so they took that far, far better than the Dutch did).

The real kicker for me would be the world butterflies, like a chance for a surviving New Holland as said above and an earlier Covenant Chain between New Plymouth and Iroquoia, which may tilt things for England in King William and Queen Anne's Wars in their initial attempts to capture Canada.

Maybe the initial generosity in governmental terms shown to OTL New Netherlands is instead given to captured Acadia/Nova Scotia since IT will be England's first actual colonial conquest in this world, which gets peacefully assimilated a la OTL New Netherlands - as the non-Yankee English settlers of OTL New York don't bother going to already-settled-and-Puritan New Plymouth, but instead take up and Anglify the great trading spot of Nova Scotia and we see the Acadians as a surviving little quirk in English colonial history parallel to the Hudson Valley Dutch (people and language).

 

[Just a Rube]

It's worth noting that the pre-colonial political situation of the natives was completely different in the New York area as opposed to the Massachusetts Bay area.

Massachusetts Bay was dominated by a handful of large confederacies with nominal leaders and tribute systems (groups like the Narragansett and Pequot with nominal control over villages covering a wide area) vs. New York, which was a bunch of independent villages with no overall king to negotiate with. This both made trade much more difficult for the New Netherlands (as the English could make a deal with e.g. the ruler of the Pequot and have reasonable confidence that it would hold, not to mention the linguistic advantages) and had military implications as well. Compare the roughly contemporary Pequot War (where the English colonists allied with the Narragansett and Mohegan against the Pequot, and after a few big victories and the Mystic Massacre were able to destroy the Pequot as a force and establish unquestioned dominance over the area) and the far less successful Keift's War (where the Dutch found themselves fighting against a disparate coalition of small tribes, which meant that the Dutch had difficulty both in negotiations, as there weren't individual paramount chiefs to either make peace with or ally, and there wasn't really a single heart of the coalition to destroy in the way that the Mystic Massacre essentially discredited the Pequots, resulting in a lot of dead Dutch and natives and little in the way of lasting gains).

 

[VT45]

The idea of an Iroquois alliance sounds intriguing. I like that idea. And if we keep the Puritan settlements in New England in roughly the same spots, New England might be able to subjugate the independent chiefs of New York and maintain a strong trading relationship with their stronger native allies. That is, until they decide it's time to introduce them to Jesus and decide to try and assimilate them.