Cook
Banned
I was tempted to do that one, but thought it'd be too cryptic.
'Don't you come into my Q store with your webbing on - I don't want you nicking anything!'
May 1982 Could Argentina have won the Falklands War?
- Thread starter UrbanRedneck
- Start date
'Don't you come into my Q store with your webbing on - I don't want you nicking anything!'
Been busy at work, but I'm back in an attempt the debunk the Falklands/Malvinas War myths that have grown largely unchecked in the Montoneros controlled leftist press in Argentina that gives all the attention to people like Ernesto Alonso, Edgardo Esteban, etcetera (considered deserters by their former platoon commanders) and that have surfaced again and again in the English speaking world on the 30th Anniversary of the Falklands/Malvinas War, despite the fine work recently of television host show personality Alejandro Fantino when he interviewed on 30th May 2012 former war correspondent Nicolás Kasanzew (he covered the war for Argentina's 60 MINUTES) and a number of decorated heroes like Augsto E. La Madrid (his platoon carried out a daring counterattack on Mt. Tumbledown; so much for the claim that only 1 Argentinian counterattack was carried out in the war and that this only took place at the end of the Battle of Wireless Ridge!) and Jorge Poltronieri in his Animales Sueltos late tv night show.
MYTH NO. 1
"Probably the first time these guys were actually treated as human beings (and got a hot meal) is when they were in the British POW cages!"
Wrong!, journalist Sophie Arie in article published on 30 May 2002 in the New Scostmans newspaper revealed that the 7th Regiment had it pretty easy to begin with:
"At first, the regiment passed the time shooting at sheep and roasting them on an old bed frame they had found nearby. Gradually food ran out and sleeping bags became permanently sodden. Hunger gnawed at their shrinking stomachs, fed only by watery soup and stewed Argentine mate, a bitter herbal tea." http://www.scotsman.com/news/you-ne...ts-people-who-were-as-good-as-family-1-501332
MYTH NO. 2
"I believe that at least some of the executions were for stealing food from Argentine army stores. How mad is that?"
Please provide the names of the executed rather than perpetuate a myth of the war. There were no executions of Argentinian consripts. There were two unfortunate incidents in which jumpy sentries shot dead two of their own men in the dark. Lt-Col. Italo Piaggi admits in his memoirs (Ganso Verde, p. 37) that on the night of 27 1982 at around 11.30 PM, Corporal Hector Golobardas of the 12th Regiment's B Company shot dead Private Vicente Perez by mistake and wounded Sargeant Francisco Bazan while investigating reports of a landing. In the recent years the left-wing CECIM veterans group has repeated made the false claim that Marine conscript Rito Portillo was killed by his "officer", when in fact Portillo had been accidentaly shot by a marine corporal on sentry duty in the immediate aftermath of a bombing carried out by a Vulcan bomber (night of 4-5 June). The doctor that operated on Portillo in a desperate attempt to save his life, Andino Luis Francisco Quinci in the book Malvinas: Contrahistoria (pp. 152-153) recalls Portillo being in a great deal of pain but never crying or acting desperately and that both talked quite a bit and never did the conscript make the claim he had been shot deliberately. Portillo from the Marine anti-aircraft detachment defending Stanley airbase had been returning from attending a Nature's call when he was accidentally shot.
MYTH NO. 3
"Unfortunately the Argentine leadership was unable to tell the British how many POWs to expect, let alone provide for their own men."
The claim the conscripts were left to starve is wrong. Private Dacio Agretti of the 4th Regiment who manned a 105mm anti-tank gun on Two Sisters Mountain, recalled that initially they had hot food but in the end had to survive on their ratpacks:
"There we had hot food, built excellent positions and were quite ready for when the British attacked. Then around the 27th May we were suddenly told that we were to abandon Wall Mountain and that we would have to defend Dos Hermanos instead. Nobody explained why, we were just ordered to move. Some walked to the mountain and some of us were taken by truck. It was a crazy decision because we never really had time to build good positions on Dos Hermanos, also we did not have a Field Kitchen so we never had any hot food anymore. We had to eat from our ration packs and it was terrible having no hot food day after day." http://en.mercopress.com/2007/06/12/argentine-conscripts-re-live-falklands-nightmare
Marine Nick Taylor of 45 Commando has this to say about the Argentinian ratpacks:
‘We all recognised that and we were grateful to have avoided more bloodshed. But we were equally grateful for what they left behind. We only had the uniforms we stood up in and the equipment we could carry; no extra clothing or food. We were out of everything. We had to take boots and other items from their dead. We also took their ammo, weapons, rations – it was corned beef – and whisky and orange powder. We mixed it with water out of bomb craters and it was lovely. We found blankets and woolly hats.’ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cked-Argentine-soldier-pictures.html#comments
So much for the claim that the Argentinian conscripts were ill-fed and abandoned by their officers. It is clear from the above evidence that the conscripts of the 4th Regiment that defended Mt. Harriet and Two Sisters initally had hot food and good shelters and in the last week-and-a-half of the fighting survived on good quality ratpacks that included whisky.
MYTH NO. 4
"On the other hand their actions pale into insignificance against the vile crimes of the likes of Astiz and the scum at ESMA"
Argentina experienced a 'Dirty War' where the Argentinian Armed Forces defeated the Montoneros and People's Revolutionary Army in their attempt to establish a Communist dictatorship. The majority of the 13,000 disappeared (not 30,000) where in fact Montoneros and ERP Communist terrorists and their underground supporters.
MYTH NO. 1
"Probably the first time these guys were actually treated as human beings (and got a hot meal) is when they were in the British POW cages!"
Wrong!, journalist Sophie Arie in article published on 30 May 2002 in the New Scostmans newspaper revealed that the 7th Regiment had it pretty easy to begin with:
"At first, the regiment passed the time shooting at sheep and roasting them on an old bed frame they had found nearby. Gradually food ran out and sleeping bags became permanently sodden. Hunger gnawed at their shrinking stomachs, fed only by watery soup and stewed Argentine mate, a bitter herbal tea." http://www.scotsman.com/news/you-ne...ts-people-who-were-as-good-as-family-1-501332
MYTH NO. 2
"I believe that at least some of the executions were for stealing food from Argentine army stores. How mad is that?"
Please provide the names of the executed rather than perpetuate a myth of the war. There were no executions of Argentinian consripts. There were two unfortunate incidents in which jumpy sentries shot dead two of their own men in the dark. Lt-Col. Italo Piaggi admits in his memoirs (Ganso Verde, p. 37) that on the night of 27 1982 at around 11.30 PM, Corporal Hector Golobardas of the 12th Regiment's B Company shot dead Private Vicente Perez by mistake and wounded Sargeant Francisco Bazan while investigating reports of a landing. In the recent years the left-wing CECIM veterans group has repeated made the false claim that Marine conscript Rito Portillo was killed by his "officer", when in fact Portillo had been accidentaly shot by a marine corporal on sentry duty in the immediate aftermath of a bombing carried out by a Vulcan bomber (night of 4-5 June). The doctor that operated on Portillo in a desperate attempt to save his life, Andino Luis Francisco Quinci in the book Malvinas: Contrahistoria (pp. 152-153) recalls Portillo being in a great deal of pain but never crying or acting desperately and that both talked quite a bit and never did the conscript make the claim he had been shot deliberately. Portillo from the Marine anti-aircraft detachment defending Stanley airbase had been returning from attending a Nature's call when he was accidentally shot.
MYTH NO. 3
"Unfortunately the Argentine leadership was unable to tell the British how many POWs to expect, let alone provide for their own men."
The claim the conscripts were left to starve is wrong. Private Dacio Agretti of the 4th Regiment who manned a 105mm anti-tank gun on Two Sisters Mountain, recalled that initially they had hot food but in the end had to survive on their ratpacks:
"There we had hot food, built excellent positions and were quite ready for when the British attacked. Then around the 27th May we were suddenly told that we were to abandon Wall Mountain and that we would have to defend Dos Hermanos instead. Nobody explained why, we were just ordered to move. Some walked to the mountain and some of us were taken by truck. It was a crazy decision because we never really had time to build good positions on Dos Hermanos, also we did not have a Field Kitchen so we never had any hot food anymore. We had to eat from our ration packs and it was terrible having no hot food day after day." http://en.mercopress.com/2007/06/12/argentine-conscripts-re-live-falklands-nightmare
Marine Nick Taylor of 45 Commando has this to say about the Argentinian ratpacks:
‘We all recognised that and we were grateful to have avoided more bloodshed. But we were equally grateful for what they left behind. We only had the uniforms we stood up in and the equipment we could carry; no extra clothing or food. We were out of everything. We had to take boots and other items from their dead. We also took their ammo, weapons, rations – it was corned beef – and whisky and orange powder. We mixed it with water out of bomb craters and it was lovely. We found blankets and woolly hats.’ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cked-Argentine-soldier-pictures.html#comments
So much for the claim that the Argentinian conscripts were ill-fed and abandoned by their officers. It is clear from the above evidence that the conscripts of the 4th Regiment that defended Mt. Harriet and Two Sisters initally had hot food and good shelters and in the last week-and-a-half of the fighting survived on good quality ratpacks that included whisky.
MYTH NO. 4
"On the other hand their actions pale into insignificance against the vile crimes of the likes of Astiz and the scum at ESMA"
Argentina experienced a 'Dirty War' where the Argentinian Armed Forces defeated the Montoneros and People's Revolutionary Army in their attempt to establish a Communist dictatorship. The majority of the 13,000 disappeared (not 30,000) where in fact Montoneros and ERP Communist terrorists and their underground supporters.
No one lambastes them because there were no NZ conscripts in Vietnam. All professional volunteers
US and AUS sent Conscripts, NZ didn't
SamuelEmmerson2012, could you comment on the role of Col. Seineldin in the Falklands/Malvinas conflict? I've heard conflicting stories. One is that he was a conscientious officer who bothered to give the conscripts some training. I've also heard negative things. I ask this because he's someone who might have played a role in an alternative outcome.
Oh man...
Montoneros never controlled any major news outlet, much less after 1982. Please note conspiracy theories are frowned upon this site. And, just to avoid a series of 'yes', 'no', 'yes', 'no' posts, please provide information on news outlets owned by Montoneros after 1982 if you wish to continue arguing that
Seineldin commanded the Army commandos. He had no conscripts under his command except, IIRC, a few conscripts manning manpads.
Yes the Montoneros survived to fight another day
Fernando Vaca Narvaja, one of the founding members of the Montoneros extremists that precipitated the "Dirty War" is now Minister of Public Works and Services. http://www.perfil.com/contenidos/2012/09/29/noticia_0013.html Also Horacio Verbitsky is a leading journalist for the Argentine newspaper Pagina 12 and was an armed combatant of the Montoneros thugs during the 1970s. http://www.perfil.com/contenidos/2007/11/04/noticia_0023.html This major newspaper frequently paints the Montoneros and ERP so-call "militants" (watered down description of terrorist) as "freedom fighters" and refers to any man in uniform that combated the Marxist terrorists of that period (including the junior officers!) as "oppressors". I can go on and on, but my main focus is on the events surrounding the Falklands/Malvinas War and not the "Dirty War".
Fernando Vaca Narvaja, one of the founding members of the Montoneros extremists that precipitated the "Dirty War" is now Minister of Public Works and Services. http://www.perfil.com/contenidos/2012/09/29/noticia_0013.html Also Horacio Verbitsky is a leading journalist for the Argentine newspaper Pagina 12 and was an armed combatant of the Montoneros thugs during the 1970s. http://www.perfil.com/contenidos/2007/11/04/noticia_0023.html This major newspaper frequently paints the Montoneros and ERP so-call "militants" (watered down description of terrorist) as "freedom fighters" and refers to any man in uniform that combated the Marxist terrorists of that period (including the junior officers!) as "oppressors". I can go on and on, but my main focus is on the events surrounding the Falklands/Malvinas War and not the "Dirty War".
Further proof the Montoneros are in power, according to THE ECONOMIST
"The Supreme Court ruled last year that a crime against humanity, which is not subject to a statute of limitations and can never be pardoned, must be committed by a government agent. Since the Montoneros did not form part of the state apparatus, the bombings and assassinations they committed are not considered crimes against humanity, and the statute of limitations on those offences has long expired. Though the Supreme Court's members are considered to be independent, a majority of them were named by Mr Kirchner, and some of his advisers have links to ex-Montoneros—notably Nilda Garré, the defence minister, whose ex-husband's brother reportedly set up the movement." http://www.economist.com/node/7912930 And yes the bulk of the 25th Regiment was made up 18-year-old conscripts with only 2 or 3 months military service but they had been put through a tough but shortened version of the Argentinian Army Commando course by the "disciples" of Seineldin in the form of commando-trained NCOs and officers who had volunteered to join him in the remote Chubut Province province barracks of Sarmiento. http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/David/Goosegreen.htm The weaker conscripts had been weeded out early and even US historian Hugh Bicheno admits these conscripts would have been up to the task of advancing on foot to attack the British at San Carlos.
"The Supreme Court ruled last year that a crime against humanity, which is not subject to a statute of limitations and can never be pardoned, must be committed by a government agent. Since the Montoneros did not form part of the state apparatus, the bombings and assassinations they committed are not considered crimes against humanity, and the statute of limitations on those offences has long expired. Though the Supreme Court's members are considered to be independent, a majority of them were named by Mr Kirchner, and some of his advisers have links to ex-Montoneros—notably Nilda Garré, the defence minister, whose ex-husband's brother reportedly set up the movement." http://www.economist.com/node/7912930 And yes the bulk of the 25th Regiment was made up 18-year-old conscripts with only 2 or 3 months military service but they had been put through a tough but shortened version of the Argentinian Army Commando course by the "disciples" of Seineldin in the form of commando-trained NCOs and officers who had volunteered to join him in the remote Chubut Province province barracks of Sarmiento. http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/David/Goosegreen.htm The weaker conscripts had been weeded out early and even US historian Hugh Bicheno admits these conscripts would have been up to the task of advancing on foot to attack the British at San Carlos.
Quite indeed. The war happened 30 years ago. At that time, all TV stations were state owned and the printed press followed instructions given by the dictatorship (with it being a dictatorship and all that). When Alfonsin became president in late 1983, the control on printed press was visibly relaxed, yet TV stations remained in State control.
In other words, it wasn't Montoneros who 'told' the war after it was over, but, mostly, the governments.
Okay one simple question: explain why it was right to murder Dagmar Hagelin without using "you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs"
Swedish radio airs documenturys and they had one about the Falklands War(and yes, they did one on Dagmar Hagelin also with the regard to the poster above me) and the Brittish General in charge actually said that if the war had gone on for a few more days the UK troops would suffer more than Argentininan troops because of lack of supplies. So this was a victory by the skin of the teeth
Samuelemerson
While you are at it exlpaining the rightness of Hagelin's murder provide me with a reasonable explanation for the murder of Alice Domon and Leonie Duquet.
While you are at it exlpaining the rightness of Hagelin's murder provide me with a reasonable explanation for the murder of Alice Domon and Leonie Duquet.
I stand corrected to a fashion. While an effort was made to prevent an invasion of the Falklands, and it is possible that they might have fought for the islands, the example of Southern Thule, (1977), didn't do any thing to discourage the Argentines either.
That said, in strong mitigation in favour of not fighting over the islands, the population of Southern Thule prior to the Argentines turning up seems to be around zero...
Oddly enough, thousands of British troops neither instantly teleported home, nor began to starve 2 days after the ceasefire.
While undoubtedly low on military supplies, things were perhaps not quite so desperate?
The murders of Dagmar Hagelin, Alice Domon and Leonie Duquet were terrible.
Terrible things happen in war and Argentina did experience a civil war despite what apologists of the Montoneros and ERP say nowadays, just look at the cold blooded killings of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan by US, British and Australian troops and you will understand how terrible war can be. Justice to all, not just the Communist terrorists! I also feel very sad for the cold blooded murder of that Chrysler executive, 35-year-old Jorge Ricardo Kenny in front of his family by part of the Montoneros and the killing of 115 Argentinians in Argentina, when Montoneros bombed the Israeli Embassy in 1992 and the AMIA Jewish Community Centre in 1994. These murderers are still running free thanks to the current Kirchner government that refuses to prosecute and jail the Communist terrorists that started the "Dirty War" but instead picks and jails junior officers of the military that saved the country from destruction.
Terrible things happen in war and Argentina did experience a civil war despite what apologists of the Montoneros and ERP say nowadays, just look at the cold blooded killings of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan by US, British and Australian troops and you will understand how terrible war can be. Justice to all, not just the Communist terrorists! I also feel very sad for the cold blooded murder of that Chrysler executive, 35-year-old Jorge Ricardo Kenny in front of his family by part of the Montoneros and the killing of 115 Argentinians in Argentina, when Montoneros bombed the Israeli Embassy in 1992 and the AMIA Jewish Community Centre in 1994. These murderers are still running free thanks to the current Kirchner government that refuses to prosecute and jail the Communist terrorists that started the "Dirty War" but instead picks and jails junior officers of the military that saved the country from destruction.
IMO this was one of the things that really decided the war in Britain's favour.