Umm, Sorry lack of Knowledge can make an total judgement.. but still Juarez and his ego is a problem(that was one in OTL), but think can work.
In general will be interesting how all will change
Maximiliano y Juarez
- Thread starter The Admiral Hook
- Start date
Umm, Sorry lack of Knowledge can make an total judgement.. but still Juarez and his ego is a problem(that was one in OTL), but think can work.
In general will be interesting how all will change
Actually Max had a lot of independence from France, more-so than Napoleon 3 could have ever predicted (or wanted). He would have had more-so after his throne was secure and of course full independence following Napoleon's exile. From day 1 Max was transitioning from French support to Austrian.
And just because you hate the Spanish and the Hapsburgs doesn't mean we can't write a little alternate history, right? Don't worry, the Hapsburg's will still get theirs...
Maximillian could never equal President Benito Juarez.
President Benito Juarez once answered a letter sent by Maximillian.
He told Maximillian that because of his principales and that because he had sworn to uphold the integrity of Mexico, its sovereignty and independence, that he had to work with much activity, multiply his efforts, to finally carryout the sacred trust that the nation, exercising its faculties of sovereignty, had confided on him.
It is a miracle his government survived. He was once forced to flee to Panama then from there to Cuba and on to New Orleans where he was well received. But when he went back to Mexico, Veracruz, he never went back outside Mexico. Twice he was advised to cross into the US since the French troops were behind him but he said he would not leave. Story goes that while in present day Juarez City, then called Paso del Norte, he pointed to some Sierra in the distance and asked if that still was free Mexican territory. His military leaders said yes but that there was nothing there. That did not stop him from setting up his government there.
His political skills and public skills out did Maximillian.
French never totally controlled Chihuahua State where Juarez City is located even thought they did control for a short while Juarez City which went by the name of Paso del Norte. French also managed to take Chihuahua City twice after fierce fighting but always pulled out after a while. Someone once commented that he who controls Chihuahua State controls Mexico.
The letter http://www.lospobresdelatierra.org/textos/juarezcartamaximiliano.html
School kids sing about Juarez
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bT2aM5yLHY&feature=related
Found a map of French intervention in 1862
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/atlas_mexico/french_intervention_1862.jpg
President Benito Juarez once answered a letter sent by Maximillian.
He told Maximillian that because of his principales and that because he had sworn to uphold the integrity of Mexico, its sovereignty and independence, that he had to work with much activity, multiply his efforts, to finally carryout the sacred trust that the nation, exercising its faculties of sovereignty, had confided on him.
It is a miracle his government survived. He was once forced to flee to Panama then from there to Cuba and on to New Orleans where he was well received. But when he went back to Mexico, Veracruz, he never went back outside Mexico. Twice he was advised to cross into the US since the French troops were behind him but he said he would not leave. Story goes that while in present day Juarez City, then called Paso del Norte, he pointed to some Sierra in the distance and asked if that still was free Mexican territory. His military leaders said yes but that there was nothing there. That did not stop him from setting up his government there.
His political skills and public skills out did Maximillian.
French never totally controlled Chihuahua State where Juarez City is located even thought they did control for a short while Juarez City which went by the name of Paso del Norte. French also managed to take Chihuahua City twice after fierce fighting but always pulled out after a while. Someone once commented that he who controls Chihuahua State controls Mexico.
The letter http://www.lospobresdelatierra.org/textos/juarezcartamaximiliano.html
School kids sing about Juarez
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bT2aM5yLHY&feature=related
Found a map of French intervention in 1862
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/atlas_mexico/french_intervention_1862.jpg
I'm not sure how well received Juarez was in New Orleans... he worked in a cigar factory.
So, wait. Are you saying it is impossible to reconcile Juarez to Maximilian even given our PODs or are you suggesting it's going to be even harder than we had thought?
We all already know that both Juarez and Maximilian were wonderful leaders and incredibly strong personalities. We're just trying to unite them feasibly.
Thank you so much for the letter and the info! This is all going to be a big help.
Yes, Juarez would never join Maximillian. You would have to eliminate him. Afterall, even Juarez said that Maximillian government was full of the people he considered were traitors. In the end it seems Maximillian was the one doomed. He knew nothing about how treacherous Mexican politics can be. He was stuck with those traitors who only cared to maintain there power and wealth. Sometimes I think they wanted him to be sort of a puppet. A puppet which they could control. At first they had trouble controlling him but they did manage to get him to do much of what they wanted.
Edit - Has for Juarez in New Orleans they say while traveling there he was cheered at foreign ports. And that in New Orleans the newspapers were constantly after him.
Edit - Has for Juarez in New Orleans they say while traveling there he was cheered at foreign ports. And that in New Orleans the newspapers were constantly after him.
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Can anyone find any evidence to the contrary? Metro brings up good points here but I cannot think of a single other potential leader to replace Juarez but serve as his analog while still accepting the Hapsburgs.
Perhaps Diaz? Any feedback is appreciated.
Thank you, Metro.
Perhaps Diaz? Any feedback is appreciated.
Thank you, Metro.
The Space Viking
Banned
I just read that Diaz ended up being anther dictator, so he might be a poor choice. There are two other generals that served under Juarez http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacio_Zaragoza and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariano_Escobedo.
Maybe Zaragoza as the commander-in-chief of the army of the Mexican empire and Escobedo as PM/Preisdent?
Taking those two away from Juarez would seriously destroy his support and make it easier to crush his rebellion.
Zargoza was too dedicated to the cause but I'm not sure about Escobedo. Diaz was a dictator because he had to have absolute power to organize the corrupt fledgling government but became power hungry and arrogant once it was organized. With the stability of Maximilian's new pro-Mexican government, Diaz may have become a very good (if a little greedy) first president.
The Space Viking
Banned
Any attempt to undermine Juarez should be taken if he is adamant in standing against Max, in the form of bringing Escobedo over to the Imperial camp might even the odds or even tip the scales in his favor if Diaz comes over as well.
I now see that Diaz, albeit ruling with an iron fist, brought much needed industrialization to Mexico, so under Max he might be a good PM/President like you said.
I couldn't agree with you more but I am still having trouble deciding on an acceptable POD for these events. I am actually BEGGING for input here.
It has been decided that Diaz becomes pro-Empire but how? Bribery? Propaganda? An earlier POD?
And how early do we eliminate and politically vilify Juarez?
And yes, Diaz will serve as acting Prime Minister under the Hapsburgs. Earlier and more successful industrialization to ensue.
Talk to me! Also, is anyone well educated on this period in history to the extent that I can PM you updates for proofreading before posting? This will help keep the trolls under their bridges.
The Space Viking
Banned
I wish I knew more about this area in time, but I don't. I'll try my best.
Some suggestions:
Some suggestions:
- Maybe Diaz is captured at the Battle of Oaxaca, and is "persuaded" to flip.
- No Black Decree (I don't know if it would be enough alone, would be better suited as a side effect of the PoD/Butterflies)
- The European Support fares better, like French landings and Belgian volunteers
- Or somehow cut off US funding to Juarez. I don't know how that would work, but I'm thinking an early Lincoln assassination might lead to some pretty interesting butterflies
America was hell bent on keeping the French out so the POD would have to be earlier to exclude American support of the Mexicans OR adding America's support to the French (even less likely).
Maybe an earlier American Civil war, with a POD perhaps of Fremont winning in 1856. The ACW begins a bit earlier and is slightly bloodier.
French interest in the Confederacy is decreased when Fremont politically reaches out to Europe and is subsequently assassinated. His successor's monetarily drained administration, while still victorious in defeating the south, is in no way prepared to assist Juarez, who is killed.
Max has therefore successfully converted Diaz and the two visit the U.S. on a very pro-American platform.
OR...
A Trent Affair-esque situation in which the victimized party is French rather than English, and the belligerent is the Confederacy rather than the Union.
Enraged Napoleon assists the Union in quelling its rebellion, and the U.S. in turn assists French Intervention.
These seem a little far out to me though... There is no way to make this tidy is there?
Unless we simply kill Juarez and convert Diaz early on... It seems unoriginal but it does work.
Maybe an earlier American Civil war, with a POD perhaps of Fremont winning in 1856. The ACW begins a bit earlier and is slightly bloodier.
French interest in the Confederacy is decreased when Fremont politically reaches out to Europe and is subsequently assassinated. His successor's monetarily drained administration, while still victorious in defeating the south, is in no way prepared to assist Juarez, who is killed.
Max has therefore successfully converted Diaz and the two visit the U.S. on a very pro-American platform.
OR...
A Trent Affair-esque situation in which the victimized party is French rather than English, and the belligerent is the Confederacy rather than the Union.
Enraged Napoleon assists the Union in quelling its rebellion, and the U.S. in turn assists French Intervention.
These seem a little far out to me though... There is no way to make this tidy is there?
Unless we simply kill Juarez and convert Diaz early on... It seems unoriginal but it does work.
The Space Viking
Banned
I definitely don't see the French and Americans working together. The ACW is however an important event happening just across the border.
I do see a bloodier Civil War with a severely weakened Union in the aftermath (regardless if the south wins or not) helping Max's case as no support for Juarez. So going with Fremont winning the election might be your best bet for a PoD.
ASB: Max allies the CSA (Austria and France recognize its independence) and they crush the Union, Mexico gets California back
I do see a bloodier Civil War with a severely weakened Union in the aftermath (regardless if the south wins or not) helping Max's case as no support for Juarez. So going with Fremont winning the election might be your best bet for a PoD.
ASB: Max allies the CSA (Austria and France recognize its independence) and they crush the Union, Mexico gets California back
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I definitely don't see the French and Americans working together. The ACW is however an important event happening just across the border.
I do see a bloodier Civil War with a severely weakened Union in the aftermath (regardless if the south wins or not) helping Max's case as no support for Juarez. So going with Fremont winning the election might be your best bet for a PoD.
ASB: Max allies the CSA (Austria and France recognize its independence) and they crush the Union, Mexico gets California back
The last suggestion is ASB... but... it's... so... AWESOME.
I think I'm just going to kill Juarez off and butterfly some pro Hapsburg sentiment due to propaganda. Sound good?
Alright, I have got a pretty good idea of how this is going to go down now... I am ready for a first post. I will link to it here when it has begun and we can continue to use this thread as a discussion forum for upcoming events.
This is my first TL so everyone be gentle and give me as much help as possible while I attempt to make this one engaging as well as well researched (and if I'm lucky, more than a little bit surprising).
Emperor Maximilian I of Mexiko, coming soon...
EDIT: Expect a surprise POD!
This is my first TL so everyone be gentle and give me as much help as possible while I attempt to make this one engaging as well as well researched (and if I'm lucky, more than a little bit surprising).
Emperor Maximilian I of Mexiko, coming soon...
EDIT: Expect a surprise POD!
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The Space Viking
Banned
You should totally do it anyways
Looks like you've got what you need to start, I can't wait for the TL to start.
You should totally do it anyways
Looks like you've got what you need to start, I can't wait for the TL to start.
The Confederacy will remain significant. I won't give too much away but I can give you two words... alternate confederados.
And thanks a lot, I'm excited about beginning my first TL proper and I'm very appreciative of your help and support.