Mary Tudor becomes queen in 1547 -- Who would she marry (with a twist)?

[yolly12345]

Just floating around an idea I randomly thought of for a possible TL (I’m not the best at creating but I just wanted to get some ideas down).

In this ATL, Henry VIII died on schedule, however, his son Edward VI died in late October/early November 1547–forever known to historians as the "Nine Months' King." Mary ascends the throne after some relatively minor hand-wrangling and immediately looks for a husband. However in this TL, Phillip of Spain is wed already; ITTL, Maria Manuela and Carlos died, leaving Phillip to marry much quicker in 1546/early 1547, to his cousin Maria, Duchess of Viseu.

In this case, who would Mary marry? Here she is 31, less hardened by stress, younger, and more fertile. For possible suitors, there are Edward Courtenay, Reginald Pole, Charles V, (and my personal favorite) Louis, the Duke of Beja. Are there any other suitors I'm missing? Also, what would happen to Elizabeth and the Seymours? Scotland? The English Reformation? The Acts of 1550 ITTL haven't happened yet so Mary should have an easier time returning England to the Catholic Church or at the very least High Church Anglicanism.

Does this make any sense or is this too ASB?

 

[Tudorfan]

Well, the reformation is dead in the water. Like dead dead.

As for the Seymours? Nothing - Jane was Catholic and brought Mary back into the fold; she'd probably be fond of them.

Scotland is going to be a mess regardless.

Until Mary has heirs, Elizabeth is her heiress and it was only under Edward's reign and with rebellions that turned Mary against Elizabeth, so as long as Mary has an easier time and there's no/less rebellions, Elizabeth will probably be safe.

 

[yolly12345]

Well, the reformation is dead in the water. Like dead dead.

As for the Seymours? Nothing - Jane was Catholic and brought Mary back into the fold; she'd probably be fond of them.

Scotland is going to be a mess regardless.

Until Mary has heirs, Elizabeth is her heiress and it was only under Edward's reign and with rebellions that turned Mary against Elizabeth, so as long as Mary has an easier time and there's no/less rebellions, Elizabeth will probably be safe.

True about reformation, Edward though was a reformer but I guess he would hide it. Who would Mary and Elizabeth marry?

 

[Tudorfan]

True about reformation, Edward though was a reformer but I guess he would hide it. Who would Mary and Elizabeth marry?

Mary? Whoever she wanted.
Elizabeth? Whoever Mary ordered. She could always give her to Dudley if she wants Elizabeth's position weakened - the daughter of the woman Mary sees as a whore married to the grandson of a traitor - poetic justice in her eyes, perhaps?

 

[DrakeRlugia]

Catherine of Aragon was certainly fond of Margaret Pole, so Reginald would be a good choice. Reginald and Mary was suggested by Eustace Chapuys in the 1530s, as well, as a way to unite their claims to the throne. While he was a cardinal, he wasn't technically a priest and wouldn't be ordained as one until 1556. This means that he'd be able to leave behind his clerical offices without too much trouble, especially if it's to marry the Catholic heiress of England: the Pope certainly can't object to that. It'd certainly be a more popular match amongst the English than a foreign one, and will add another drop of Yorkist blood into the Tudor dynasty. Mary's heirs will be just as English as Elizabeth herself would claim to be, which might go a long way in assisting with Mary's religious program.

Courtenay would also make a decent match, but given his attitude and ambitions, he would probably be a more dangerous consort.

As for Charles V... would probably have the same issues attached to the Spanish match of Philip and Mary. The Queen of England marrying the Holy Roman Emperor has a host of issues, and Charles V would be busy with his own foreign policy issues, primarily the grave religious unrest in Germany. It wouldn't give him much chance to come to England, which means less chance of conception and a possible heir. I suppose such a marriage might not be as feared as Charles V has a son and heir to inherit his dominions, and any children with Mary would be secondary, but I think any fears of getting roped into the emperor's continental affairs would be a grave concern.

Luis of Beja would be the (safer) foreign choice, but he has his own concerns: he had a mistress, Violante Gomes, who bore him a son, Antonio, the Prior of Crato. They were allegedly married in secret, but I'm not sure if this is actually true or just alleged. Even if they did marry, a secret marriage is easily dispensed with where dynastic issues are concerned.

One thing to bare in mind, that even if Mary is coming to throne several years earlier here, she's still suffered a lot of psychological stress. Even as early as 1531, it was documented that she suffered from depression, migraines, stomach pains, and gynaecological issues, namely irregular and very painful periods. While this wasn't understood in the sixteenth century, it could've been a gamut of issues, including fertility problems.

 

[HortenseMancini]

Also, what would happen to Elizabeth

mary may love her half sister but i think here elizabeth's hopes of getting a crown are pretty much dashed even if mary doesn't pop out a surviving kid

the Seymours?

return to being uppity courtiers

Scotland?

obviously the rough wooing won't continue here without edward around so mqos likely remains in scotland which is probably good in the long term

The English Reformation?

dead as a doornail

personally i think charles v may bite the bullet and marry mary himself here - philip is not even 19 and mary will need someone with experience in statecraft by her side. look to possibly see a match between elizabeth and a habsburg candidate as well. as far as kids mary has a decent chance of falling pregnant at least once - however chances are that also she will have at most one surviving child, maybe two.

 

[HortenseMancini]

Catherine of Aragon was certainly fond of Margaret Pole, so Reginald would be a good choice. Reginald and Mary was suggested by Eustace Chapuys in the 1530s, as well, as a way to unite their claims to the throne. While he was a cardinal, he wasn't technically a priest and wouldn't be ordained as one until 1556. This means that he'd be able to leave behind his clerical offices without too much trouble, especially if it's to marry the Catholic heiress of England: the Pope certainly can't object to that. It'd certainly be a more popular match amongst the English than a foreign one, and will add another drop of Yorkist blood into the Tudor dynasty. Mary's heirs will be just as English as Elizabeth herself would claim to be, which might go a long way in assisting with Mary's religious program.

Courtenay would also make a decent match, but given his attitude and ambitions, he would probably be a more dangerous consort.

As for Charles V... would probably have the same issues attached to the Spanish match of Philip and Mary. The Queen of England marrying the Holy Roman Emperor has a host of issues, and Charles V would be busy with his own foreign policy issues, primarily the grave religious unrest in Germany. It wouldn't give him much chance to come to England, which means less chance of conception and a possible heir. I suppose such a marriage might not be as feared as Charles V has a son and heir to inherit his dominions, and any children with Mary would be secondary, but I think any fears of getting roped into the emperor's continental affairs would be a grave concern.

Luis of Beja would be the (safer) foreign choice, but he has his own concerns: he had a mistress, Violante Gomes, who bore him a son, Antonio, the Prior of Crato. They were allegedly married in secret, but I'm not sure if this is actually true or just alleged. Even if they did marry, a secret marriage is easily dispensed with where dynastic issues are concerned.

Of these candidates i think charles v is the most likely but honestly i think it would be rough for england because mary is very much the type of woman to say 'how high' when charles says 'jump' even if it means screwing over england though i will also concede that it's a lot less scary for the english than mary/philip

 

[yolly12345]

Mary? Whoever she wanted.
Elizabeth? Whoever Mary ordered. She could always give her to Dudley if she wants Elizabeth's position weakened - the daughter of the woman Mary sees as a whore married to the grandson of a traitor - poetic justice in her eyes, perhaps?

I don’t think Mary would be that petty at this point, plus Elizabeth is heir until she has a child, so she would be a valuable bargaining chip for marriage.

 

[Kynan]

I definitely see Mary gunning for Charles V - whether he bites the bullet or not is anyone's guess. If not him, it'll be a cousin on that side. Luis makes sense as a backup, but Mary may just go local if she can't get the best foreign husband available. But I'm team Charles on this one.

As for Elizabeth...honestly I can see Mary initially holding her back - particularly if she isn't immediately blessed with a healthy child. If we assume it takes about a year for Mary and Charles to get to the alter with negotiations and everything else, and another 6-12 months for conception (considering her health and familial history), let's say Elizabeth is only seriously betrothed after this first child either dies young or is a stillbirth around 1549 or so, and Mary concieves again, with her 1st healthy child, born around 1550/1551. Who makes sense here for Elizabeth in the mess?

There's three qualities Mary is going to want:

1. Catholic.
2. Prestigious.
3. Not a threat.

With that in mind, I'd say Savoy makes the most obvious sense, as does Ferdinand of Austria. Mary could look local, but Elizabeth will be a lightning rod as a Protestant alternative (even if she's publicly Catholic) and Mary is nothing if not a family girl. Luis of Portugal also remains a potential contender, but likely wouldn't be interested in Elizabeth. Which, if we're being fair, Ferdinand likely isn't either. Because Elizabeth is essentially the Queen's bastard sister, with some lands in England, but not rich enough to really disguise how poor of a match she is for these men. Which leads me to my personal choice.

James Hamilton, Earl of Arran.

Basically, Mary has a rival Queen to her North, allied with France, who she needs an inroads to. Elizabeth is the perfect age for this high ranking lord's son, who is always looking for a prestigious match to elevate himself and gain allies against his enemies. Elizabeth is still a King's daughter, and this is the perfect way to play nice with everyone. Marie of Guise can't really complain, because her daughter is already in France, and all this really does is remove all talk of Hamilton marrying Mary. You can make the same case for the future Darnley, but he's like 12 years younger than Elizabeth, so it couldn't happen for another half-decade. Hamilton is available right now.

BUT...if not Scotland, Austria, Savoy, or Portugal, Elizabeth may just be left alone. Any English match good enough for her is a threat, and any not a threat reflects poorly on Mary. Once she has her surviving child/ren, then it's all good. Elizabeth being married off by Mary also made sense in her 1553 accession, but it didn't end up happening. Here, there's actually less reason to try and get her off to a Catholic husband. If she doesn't want a marriage, and Mary has her own heir, it really makes no difference.

One thing this does change is Mary, Queen of Scots' usefulness to the French and her role post-Francois death. The marriage likely goes through for the same reasons as OTL, but post-1560, she's probably more valuable to Catherine de Medici than she was OTL. England and Spain are still in alliance, particularly since they now have the Netherlands at their disposal. Catherine needs Scotland as a counterbalance. That does mean Charles IX and MQOS are going to get together, but that probably means warmer relations between the two, particularly since no Don Carlos and no Phillip/Elisabeth of Valois means no cold war betrothal madness. Catherine might even support Mary marrying her Guise cousin Henry, just to play nice.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

Of these candidates i think charles v is the most likely but honestly i think it would be rough for england because mary is very much the type of woman to say 'how high' when charles says 'jump' even if it means screwing over england though i will also concede that it's a lot less scary for the english than mary/philip

I agree with you. I think it would be a less problematic marriage than Philip and Mary, but it has a host of it's own concerns. There will still be those who fear England turning into a Habsburg vassal and getting involved in the emperor's conflicts. His own issues on the continent also means there won't be much time for him to stay in England. He'd be able to perhaps come over for a short time in 1547/1548 for the marriage, but beyond that it's hard to say: he spent 1550 in Austria following the Council of Trent, dealt with the Second Schmalkaldic War in 1552. He spent the last years of his emperorship in the Low Countries, which would perhaps allow some more visits, but his health was also in the decline. Assuming he still abdicates, given his health issues, he could make a final visit to England before going to Spain, or retire to England instead.

 

[yolly12345]

I agree with you. I think it would be a less problematic marriage than Philip and Mary, but it has a host of it's own concerns. There will still be those who fear England turning into a Habsburg vassal and getting involved in the emperor's conflicts. His own issues on the continent also means there won't be much time for him to stay in England. He'd be able to perhaps come over for a short time in 1547/1548 for the marriage, but beyond that it's hard to say: he spent 1550 in Austria following the Council of Trent, dealt with the Second Schmalkaldic War in 1552. He spent the last years of his emperorship in the Low Countries, which would perhaps allow some more visits, but his health was also in the decline. Assuming he still abdicates, given his health issues, he could make a final visit to England before going to Spain, or retire to England instead.

True, I’m leaning away from Charles because not only is he older (which even as a man could still affect fertility), he also is wrapped up in his Empire and the huge continental conflicts.

 

[yolly12345]

I definitely see Mary gunning for Charles V - whether he bites the bullet or not is anyone's guess. If not him, it'll be a cousin on that side. Luis makes sense as a backup, but Mary may just go local if she can't get the best foreign husband available. But I'm team Charles on this one.

As for Elizabeth...honestly I can see Mary initially holding her back - particularly if she isn't immediately blessed with a healthy child. If we assume it takes about a year for Mary and Charles to get to the alter with negotiations and everything else, and another 6-12 months for conception (considering her health and familial history), let's say Elizabeth is only seriously betrothed after this first child either dies young or is a stillbirth around 1549 or so, and Mary concieves again, with her 1st healthy child, born around 1550/1551. Who makes sense here for Elizabeth in the mess?

There's three qualities Mary is going to want:

1. Catholic.
2. Prestigious.
3. Not a threat.

With that in mind, I'd say Savoy makes the most obvious sense, as does Ferdinand of Austria. Mary could look local, but Elizabeth will be a lightning rod as a Protestant alternative (even if she's publicly Catholic) and Mary is nothing if not a family girl. Luis of Portugal also remains a potential contender, but likely wouldn't be interested in Elizabeth. Which, if we're being fair, Ferdinand likely isn't either. Because Elizabeth is essentially the Queen's bastard sister, with some lands in England, but not rich enough to really disguise how poor of a match she is for these men. Which leads me to my personal choice.

James Hamilton, Earl of Arran.

Basically, Mary has a rival Queen to her North, allied with France, who she needs an inroads to. Elizabeth is the perfect age for this high ranking lord's son, who is always looking for a prestigious match to elevate himself and gain allies against his enemies. Elizabeth is still a King's daughter, and this is the perfect way to play nice with everyone. Marie of Guise can't really complain, because her daughter is already in France, and all this really does is remove all talk of Hamilton marrying Mary. You can make the same case for the future Darnley, but he's like 12 years younger than Elizabeth, so it couldn't happen for another half-decade. Hamilton is available right now.

BUT...if not Scotland, Austria, Savoy, or Portugal, Elizabeth may just be left alone. Any English match good enough for her is a threat, and any not a threat reflects poorly on Mary. Once she has her surviving child/ren, then it's all good. Elizabeth being married off by Mary also made sense in her 1553 accession, but it didn't end up happening. Here, there's actually less reason to try and get her off to a Catholic husband. If she doesn't want a marriage, and Mary has her own heir, it really makes no difference.

One thing this does change is Mary, Queen of Scots' usefulness to the French and her role post-Francois death. The marriage likely goes through for the same reasons as OTL, but post-1560, she's probably more valuable to Catherine de Medici than she was OTL. England and Spain are still in alliance, particularly since they now have the Netherlands at their disposal. Catherine needs Scotland as a counterbalance. That does mean Charles IX and MQOS are going to get together, but that probably means warmer relations between the two, particularly since no Don Carlos and no Phillip/Elisabeth of Valois means no cold war betrothal madness. Catherine might even support Mary marrying her Guise cousin Henry, just to play nice.

Would MQOS still be sent to France? She was sent to France in mid-1548 and by this time Mary Tudor would have ascended the throne, the Rough Wooing would cease.

 

[Tudorfan]

I definitely see Mary gunning for Charles V - whether he bites the bullet or not is anyone's guess. If not him, it'll be a cousin on that side. Luis makes sense as a backup, but Mary may just go local if she can't get the best foreign husband available. But I'm team Charles on this one.

As for Elizabeth...honestly I can see Mary initially holding her back - particularly if she isn't immediately blessed with a healthy child. If we assume it takes about a year for Mary and Charles to get to the alter with negotiations and everything else, and another 6-12 months for conception (considering her health and familial history), let's say Elizabeth is only seriously betrothed after this first child either dies young or is a stillbirth around 1549 or so, and Mary concieves again, with her 1st healthy child, born around 1550/1551. Who makes sense here for Elizabeth in the mess?

There's three qualities Mary is going to want:

1. Catholic.
2. Prestigious.
3. Not a threat.

With that in mind, I'd say Savoy makes the most obvious sense, as does Ferdinand of Austria. Mary could look local, but Elizabeth will be a lightning rod as a Protestant alternative (even if she's publicly Catholic) and Mary is nothing if not a family girl. Luis of Portugal also remains a potential contender, but likely wouldn't be interested in Elizabeth. Which, if we're being fair, Ferdinand likely isn't either. Because Elizabeth is essentially the Queen's bastard sister, with some lands in England, but not rich enough to really disguise how poor of a match she is for these men. Which leads me to my personal choice.

James Hamilton, Earl of Arran.

Basically, Mary has a rival Queen to her North, allied with France, who she needs an inroads to. Elizabeth is the perfect age for this high ranking lord's son, who is always looking for a prestigious match to elevate himself and gain allies against his enemies. Elizabeth is still a King's daughter, and this is the perfect way to play nice with everyone. Marie of Guise can't really complain, because her daughter is already in France, and all this really does is remove all talk of Hamilton marrying Mary. You can make the same case for the future Darnley, but he's like 12 years younger than Elizabeth, so it couldn't happen for another half-decade. Hamilton is available right now.

BUT...if not Scotland, Austria, Savoy, or Portugal, Elizabeth may just be left alone. Any English match good enough for her is a threat, and any not a threat reflects poorly on Mary. Once she has her surviving child/ren, then it's all good. Elizabeth being married off by Mary also made sense in her 1553 accession, but it didn't end up happening. Here, there's actually less reason to try and get her off to a Catholic husband. If she doesn't want a marriage, and Mary has her own heir, it really makes no difference.

One thing this does change is Mary, Queen of Scots' usefulness to the French and her role post-Francois death. The marriage likely goes through for the same reasons as OTL, but post-1560, she's probably more valuable to Catherine de Medici than she was OTL. England and Spain are still in alliance, particularly since they now have the Netherlands at their disposal. Catherine needs Scotland as a counterbalance. That does mean Charles IX and MQOS are going to get together, but that probably means warmer relations between the two, particularly since no Don Carlos and no Phillip/Elisabeth of Valois means no cold war betrothal madness. Catherine might even support Mary marrying her Guise cousin Henry, just to play nice.

TBH, MQoS could make Mary somewhat more amenable to Elizabeth because she's not MQoS.

• Is Elizabeth a daughter of Henry VIII?
  • Yes, no-one can deny it. Elizabeth resembles Henry the most out of all of them!
• Is she Catholic?
  • No (or maybe only outwardly) but Mary's probably married her too one and she probably has a couple of Catholic kids.
• Is she French (or married to one), the mortal enemy of Mary's maternal family?
  • No
• Is she English?
  • Yes.
• Is she useful as the spare to the spare to the spare to absolutely and definitely keep MQoS as far away from the English throne as is humanly possible?
  • Yes.

 

[yolly12345]

TBH, MQoS could make Mary somewhat more amenable to Elizabeth because she's not MQoS.

• Is Elizabeth a daughter of Henry VIII?
  • Yes, no-one can deny it. Elizabeth resembles Henry the most out of all of them!
• Is she Catholic?
  • No (or maybe only outwardly) but Mary's probably married her too one and she probably has a couple of Catholic kids.
• Is she French (or married to one), the mortal enemy of Mary's maternal family?
  • No
• Is she English?
  • Yes.
• Is she useful as the spare to the spare to the spare to absolutely and definitely keep MQoS as far away from the English throne as is humanly possible?
  • Yes.

Who would you recommend as Elizabeth’s husband?

 

[Tudorfan]

Who would you recommend as Elizabeth’s husband?

Someone related to Philip - maybe Archduke Charles of Austria? I know Eric of Sweden seemed genuinely interested, so he could do?

 

[Stahlo]

Someone related to Philip - maybe Archduke Charles of Austria? I know Eric of Sweden seemed genuinely interested, so he could do?

Eric of Sweden was a Lutheran. That'd be a hard pass for Mary. If Elizabeth gets a foreign match, she's getting a Catholic.

 

[Tudorfan]

Eric of Sweden was a Lutheran. That'd be a hard pass for Mary. If Elizabeth gets a foreign match, she's getting a Catholic.

He was, but it gets Elizabeth off Mary's back and, if he suffers his IOTL fate, Elizabeth's probably got a crap sack of stuff to come...

 

[yolly12345]

He was, but it gets Elizabeth off Mary's back and, if he suffers his IOTL fate, Elizabeth's probably got a crap sack of stuff to come...

Interesting idea I was thinking of a possible “alliance” with a Protestant king like Denmark or Sweden because in OTL and ATL Protestantism is not ending. Also, I know this is random but anybody’s thoughts about William the Silent? I really want Elizabeth to have a fairly major role in 16th-century Europe even though she won’t be queen.

 

[isabella]

Just floating around an idea I randomly thought of for a possible TL (I’m not the best at creating but I just wanted to get some ideas down).

In this ATL, Henry VIII died on schedule, however, his son Edward VI died in late October/early November 1547–forever known to historians as the "Nine Months' King." Mary ascends the throne after some relatively minor hand-wrangling and immediately looks for a husband. However in this TL, Phillip of Spain is wed already; ITTL, Maria Manuela and Carlos died, leaving Phillip to marry much quicker in 1546/early 1547, to his cousin Maria, Duchess of Viseu.

In this case, who would Mary marry? Here she is 31, less hardened by stress, younger, and more fertile. For possible suitors, there are Edward Courtenay, Reginald Pole, Charles V, (and my personal favorite) Louis, the Duke of Beja. Are there any other suitors I'm missing? Also, what would happen to Elizabeth and the Seymours? Scotland? The English Reformation? The Acts of 1550 ITTL haven't happened yet so Mary should have an easier time returning England to the Catholic Church or at the very least High Church Anglicanism.

Does this make any sense or is this too ASB?

Mary would marry Charles V (who was her choice OTL and here would not have the OTL reasons for refuting the match and instead push his son). Elizabeth would likely marry Ferdinand of Austria (Beja or Savoy are not impossible but far less likely), who would get a good dowry in money and possibly some English revenues… Plus Elizabeth is Mary‘s heiress until she and Charles have children, who is not guaranteed to happen.
The situation with the empire of Charles V is easy to settle: Philip would do most of the ruling in Spain, like Ferdinand would continue to rule the Empire while Charles would split most of his time between England and his beloved Low Countries.

 

[yolly12345]

Mary would marry Charles V (who was her choice OTL and here would not have the OTL reasons for refuting the match and instead push his son). Elizabeth would likely marry Ferdinand of Austria (Beja or Savoy are not impossible but far less likely), who would get a good dowry in money and possibly some English revenues… Plus Elizabeth is Mary‘s heiress until she and Charles have children, who is not guaranteed to happen.
The situation with the empire of Charles V is easy to settle: Philip would do most of the ruling in Spain, like Ferdinand would continue to rule the Empire while Charles would split most of his time between England and his beloved Low Countries.

Who would you recommend as choice #2 if not Charles V? I understand the reasoning, but Mary already has a limited biological clock at this point and a husband who would have to be away even for just part of the year would put a hindrance on her childbearing. I preferred someone who would be in England like 80% of the time or more.