Map Thread XXI

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PolishMagnet

PolishMagnet

dreadnought jenkins said:
Haha I mean yes. I used to live in Okinawa (hence of all details on the map, that is where my eyes were drawn to) and those beaches and coral reefs are absolutely stunning. Just the clearest water.

The Ryukyu people have been through a lot, so it makes me sad to see the islands partitioned.
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I lived in Shikoku but sadly never made the trip to Okinawa. My friends made sure to send me lots of pictures, though that only made it worse lol

Back to the map, it may have been an extreme solution to the disputed islands near Taiwan.
 

Emperor-of-New-Zealand

Just a bit of a WIP. New World is done. A vague "American Revolution Avoided" timeline that results in the classic trope of "Kingdom of America/Republic of Britain" (or, in this case, "Commonwealth of Nations/British Imperial Federation"). Those are native autonomies within America, plus an independent native state as a buffer between the Republic of Columbia and American Louisiana. Texas is Hispanic, and Alaska (or Arasuka) is Japanese. Peru rolled all sixes! Go Peru!

1671230013830.png
 

Analytical Engine

Emperor-of-New-Zealand said:
Just a bit of a WIP. New World is done. A vague "American Revolution Avoided" timeline that results in the classic trope of "Kingdom of America/Republic of Britain" (or, in this case, "Commonwealth of Nations/British Imperial Federation"). Those are native autonomies within America, plus an independent native state as a buffer between the Republic of Columbia and American Louisiana. Texas is Hispanic, and Alaska (or Arasuka) is Japanese. Peru rolled all sixes! Go Peru!

View attachment 796326
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Is the Republic of Columbia independent for the totally-obvious-reason?
 
wildviper121

wildviper121

PolishMagnet said:
Nope. The Senkaku Islands are something different.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Senkaku Islands dispute - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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The Republic of China claimed the Senkaku and Ryukyu Islands. The map depicts islands to the southwest of Okinawa starting at Miyakojima as part of China. Okinawa is reverted to Japan.
See these many quotes:
David T said:
I had a soc.history.what-if post on this in 2010:


Ryukyu (Liu-ch'iu) Islands, Republic of China?


"[By 1942-3] The governments ranged against Japan began to discuss openly
the problems which would arise with Japan's defeat. The Chinese hastened
to announce that they intended to claim not only Manchuria and Formosa but
the Ryukyu Islands as well. On July 7, 1942, Sun Fo [President of the
Legislative Yuan, ex- and future Premier, and son of Sun Yat-sen]
announced China's determination to recover the Ryukyus; Foreign Minister
T. V. Soong repeated the claim in November; Chiang Kai-shek referred to
China's 'loss of the Liu-ch'iu Islands' in the unexpurgated Chinese
edition of his manifesto *China's Destiny,* published on March 10. 1943;
and Chinese spokesmen in the United States found opportunity to bring the
claim to the attention to the American public."--George H. Kirk, *Okinawa:
The History of an Island People*, p. 464.
http://books.google.com/books?id=vaAKJQyzpLkC&pg=PA464

"*Ta-kung-pao* editorials in January 1943 asserted that the wartime
coalition should see to the independence of Korea and the retrocession of
Taiwan, the Ryukyus (Liuchius) and Manchuria to China."--*The Cambridge
History of China, Volume 13: Republican China, 1912-1949, Part Two*, p.
532. http://books.google.com/books?id=Fxs3ROaIhPMC&pg=PA532

The Chinese claim to the Ryukyus is also discussed by Xiaoyuan Liu, *A
Partnership for Disorder: China, The United States, And Their Policies
For The Postwar Disposition Of The Japanese Empire, 1941-1945* (Cambridge
University Press 1996). As Liu notes, (pp. 77-80) even some Chinese were
aware of the questionable nature of the claim:

"Another insular possession of Japan, the Ryukyu Islands, did not occupy a
primary position in wartime foreign policy planning in either China or the
United States. Before the Cairo Conference, Chinese official thinking on
the subject was at best confused. Publicly, the Chinese government
included these islands in China's lost territories. But when the
aforementioned *Time-Life Fortune* memorandum suggested that these islands
should also be part of the string of international bases in the Pacific,
Chonqing did not protest in any manner, as it did in the case of Taiwan.
The reason was that, at the time, the Chinese government itself did not
have a definite policy on these islands.

"After China's war with Japan began, within KMT circles Chiang Kai-shek
tended to put the Ryukyu Islands and Taiwan in the same category. Once,
he suggested mistakenly that the Ryukyu Islands had come under Japan's
control as a result of the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895. Consequently,
after the beginning of the Pacific war prompted the Chinese government to
adopt formally the 1894-1895 war as the time line for its territorial
readjustment with Japan, KMT leaders also included the Ryukyu Islands in
their list of China's lost territories. Historically, however, the Ryukyu
Islands and Taiwan had had different relations with China, and they had
been seized by Japan in different circumstances. Briefly, the Ryukyu
Islands had never been a formal part of China, as Taiwan had, nor had
Japan's conquest of the islands taken place during the war of 1894-1895.
For more than a century and a half, before Japan made these islands into
an 'Okinawa Prefecture' in 1879, the rivalry between China and Japan over
the suzerainty of the Ryukyu Islands, a quasi-independent kingdom, had
been growing. The government of the Qing Dynasty had eventually lost its
tributary patronage over the Ryukyus through an ambiguous and gradual
process. Therefore, in the war years, Chongqing's claim of sovereignty
over the Ryukyu Islands in reference to the war of 1894-1895 would not
be able to stand careful scrutiny at international peace conferences.

"Some Chinese officials were cognizant of the confusion. In June 1942,
Waijiaobu [Chinese Foreign Ministry] official Yang Yunzhu told John
Service of the U.S. embassy that the overture on China's recovery of the
Ryukyu Islands was one of those 'unfortunately inevitable... [and]
exaggerated statements by private individuals concerning [China's] war
aims.' The truth, according to Yang, was that the people living in these
islands were not Chinese, and the islands themselves, though at one time
existing within the tributary system of China, had been entirely separated
from China for almost eighty years. Unimportant economically and
strategically to China, the Ryukyu Islands were now in effect an integral
part of Japan. Yang firmly stated that the Chinese government would not
expect the return of these islands in the peace settlement. Although
expressing what he believed proper, Yang failed to anticipate T. V.
Soong's aforementioned statement on China's war aims of November 1942 and
Chiang Kai-shek's book, *China's Destiny,* both asserting that China
wanted to recover the Ryukyus.

"Knowledgeable officials within the Chinese government remained doubtful
even after Soong and Chiang publicly committed themselves to Chinese
sovereignty over the Ryukyu Islands. For instance, in May 1943, Xu Shuxi,
adviser to the Foreign Minister and director of the Western Asiatic
Affairs Department of the Waijiaobu, pointed out in a memorandum to Soong
that, in contrast to Taiwan but similar to Korea, the Ryukyu Islands had
been a semisovereign state before their annexation by Japan. China's
traditional 'rights' over the Ryukyus were obsolete in the twentieth
century; therefore, China should not attempt to recover them. According to
Xu, the only realistic course for the Chinese government was to support
these islands' freedom from Japan. Yet, Xu doubted that, without its
own independence movement, the formerly insular kingdom would be able to
achieve self-government. Therefore, a period of international supervision
and assistance was in order. Xu emphasized that no matter what type of
international administration was established for the Ryukyu Islands at
the end of the war, its eventual purpose must be to set these islands
free from Japan. Japan must not be allowed to use them again as bases of
aggression. Soon, at the Cairo Conference, the Chinese government would
make an effort to redefine its postwar intention toward the Ryukyu
Islands. But, as is shown in Chapter 6, the effort would not be very
effective in altering the public image, fostered by Soong and Chiang, of
Chongqing's postwar ambition concerning the Ryukyu Islands.

"Before the Cairo Conference, despite President Roosevelt's general
interest in the Pacific islands, the Ryukyus seemed to escape his
attention. During the first two years of the war, in the State Department
the Ryukyu question was also considered only tentatively. In the summer of
1943, when contemplating the subject, the Territorial Subcommittee of
the State Department treated it as a sequel to the Allied policy toward
Taiwan. The predominant concern was that these islands' strategic location
lay 'athwart the approaches to the China coast and parallel to the great
circle trade route.' The Territorial Subcommittee did not think Chinese
control of the Ryukyu Islands would be a proper solution. First, in view
of the fact that the Chinese in the past had allowed these islands to pass
to Japanese control 'by default,' Chongqing's current claim for
sovereignty was at best 'tenuous.' Furthermore, should the Ryukyu populace
really want to be freed from Japanese rule, they would not necessarily
welcome a Chinese government, which would be even more alien to them than
the Japanese. An alternative to Chinese control could be international
administration if these islands had to be separated from Japan. But in the
subcommittee's opinion, the prospective international agency should
concern itself only with military matters, leaving civil administration to
the Japanese. The inclination was, therefore, to allow Japanese control to
continue. It was held that after Japan was disarmed and deprived of the
Mandated Islands, Korea, and Taiwan in the postwar years, the Ryukyu
Islands alone, even in Japanese hands, would no longer constitute a threat
to the security of other nations. Of course, these islands must be
thoroughly demilitarized as well. The principle of self-government, in the
subcommittee's opinion, did not seem to have a very strong case here.
Japanese efforts at assimilation of the islanders seemed to have been
quite successful: 'Through education, conscription, and [a] closely
supervised system of local government, the population undoubtedly has come
to consider itself an integral part of the Japanese Empire'...

"The divided opinions among Chinese officials on the Ryukyu Islands
typically reflected the confusion experienced by the Chinese government in
trying to reestablish China's traditional influence in East Asia in a
modern context. To wartime Chinese-American diplomacy, legal arguments
for or against Chongqing's claim on the Ryukyu Islands eventually proved
secondary. The two governments' potential disagreement was really over
whether these islands should be allowed to remain under Japanese control;
and China's and America's different geostrategic interests in the Pacific,
not their views of the legal status of the Ryukyus, were decisive..."
http://books.google.com/books?id=x8b4an0T0twC&pg=PA77

According to Liu (p. 120) in preparation for the Cairo summit, the
National Military Council and the Supreme Council of National Defense
prepared programs on the Chinese government's attitude toward the
forthcoming peace, which would include Japan's returning to China
Manchuria, Taiwan, the Pescadores, and the Ryukyu Islands; however, "For
the Ryukyu Islands, depending on circumstances, Chongqing could afford to
be flexible to the extent of accepting international control."
http://books.google.com/books?id=AtdhqyKYf1wC&pg=PA120

Anyway, what was actually discussed about the Ryukyus at Cairo? According
to China's "fifth memorandum" about proposals to be submitted to President
Roosevelt, Chiang was to propose the following:

"C. Territorial

1. Recovery of all Chinese territories (to be specifically defined e.f.
[sic] Manchuria, Liaotung Peninsula, Formosa, *Liu Choo Islands* [emphasis
added] and Hong Kong)."
http://books.google.com/books?id=AtdhqyKYf1wC&pg=PA308

The Chinese "summary record" of the Conference gives a curious impression:
that FDR offered China the Ryukyus, *and Chiang turned him down!*:
"The President then referred to the question of the Ryukyu Islands and
enquired more than once whether China would want the Ryukyus. The
Generalissimo replied that China would be agreeable to joint occupation of
the Ryukyus by China and the United States and, eventually, joint
administration by the two countries under the trusteeship of an
international organization."
http://books.google.com/books?id=x8b4an0T0twC&pg=PA310

According to Liu (p. 137), this impression is misleading:

"With regard to the status of the Ryukyu Islands, the summary record
conveys the wrong impression that President Roosevelt was the one who
brought up the subject and was anxious to offer it to China. In concert
with Chiang's original plans for the Cairo Conference, the fifth
memorandum clearly indicated Chongqing's intention to regain the Ryukyu
Islands along with other lost territories. Instead of being generous,
Roosevelt's attitude toward the subject must have put Chiang on the
defensive, for, as the record indicates, Chiang appeared flexible and
indicated his willingness to participate in a joint American-Chinese
administration of the Ryukyus on behalf of the postwar international peace
organization. This position constituted a retreat from both the
memorandum and Chiang's own earlier claim regarding the Ryukyus that had
been made public in his book *China's Destiny*. But, it should be
recalled, the retreat was a contingency anticipated in Chiang's original
plans. After the meeting with Roosevelt, Chiang explained his stand in
his diary, saying that he had proposed to the president a joint American-
Chinese control of those islands to end the Americans' anxiety (about
China's expansionism?). Later, within KMT circles, Chiang also admitted
that the Ryukyus had been part of Japan for so long that it would be
better to institute joint American-Chinese control for security purposes
rather than to restore China's unilateral influence there.

"Unfortunately for Chiang, his gesture of self-denial over the Ryukyu
Islands at that meeting was somehow obscured by the back-and-forth
translation between the two languages. The task was performed with
difficulty by Song Meiling, who in the opinion of Churchill's doctor in
Cairo, 'was always tired' that day because of lost sleep over her nettle
rash. Whatever the reason might be, Chiang's proposal did not get across
to the president. After his meeting with Chiang, Roosevelt remembered
only what he learned from the fifth memorandum and continued to believe
that the Chinese government was anxious to obtain the Ryukyu Islands..."
http://books.google.com/books?id=AtdhqyKYf1wC&pg=PA137

OK, let's grant that giving China the Ryukyus would be wrong from the
viewpoint of self-determination (the Okinawans and other island peoples
may not have been *exactly* Japanese, but they were linguistically and
culturally closely related to the Japanese, and in no sense were they
Chinese) and dubious from the viewpoint of history: though the Ryukyuan
kings for centuries paid tribute to China, as early as the seventeenth
century the southern Kyushu fief of Satsuma exercised control over the
islands. China did object when Japan formally ended the Ryukyu Kingdom
and established a "Prefecture of Okinawa" in 1879; but by 1891 (three
years before the Sino-Japanese War) even the official *Peking Gazette*
(which as late as 1890 had published occasional notices of the Ryukyus as
a "tributary state") started to treat Ryukyu matters under "Foreign
Affairs." Kerr, *Okinawa: The History of an Island People*, p. 392.

Still, Chiang *did* want the Ryukyus (even if he was willing to accept
joint American-Chinese administration as a fallback position) and what if
FDR had in fact agreed to let him have them? (Why would he do so? Well,
it was wartime and Japan was the enemy. Besides, FDR was unable or
unwilling to grant many of Chiang's requests--e.g., the endless appeals
for more aid--and he may have figured that granting this one would be a
harmless way of mollifying Chiang, especially if it is agreed that while
sovereignty on the islands will "revert" to China, the US will get to keep
troops there.) We would then get the curious situation that after 1949,
the Republic of China would be limited (apart from minor islands) to (a)
Taiwan, whose loss had been taken for granted by China until World War II
[1]; and (b) the Ryukyus, a chain of islands which had never really been
part of China and which were inhabited by people who considered themselves
Japanese, or at least certainly not Chinese. The Nationalist Chinese had
trouble enough governing their fellow Han Chinese on Taiwan--think of the
troubles the Okinawans and other Ryukyuans would give them. Meanwhile,
there would still be irredentist sentiment in Japan. (After all, in OTL
the Kurile Islands dispute
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands_dispute remains unresolved.)
And if after 1950 the Communist takeover of the Chinese mainland and the
Korean War lead the US to maintain a massive military presence on the
Ryukyus, the resentment, both in Japan and on the Ryukyus, will be
directed not only against Chiang but especially against the US. (There
was--and is--of course much resentment of the US military presence in
Okinawa in OTL. But at least in OTL, the US even in the 1950's did
acknowledge Japan's "residual sovereignty" over Okinawa and the other
Ryukyus, and did ultimately return them to Japanese control.)

[1] "Taiwan's loss, interestingly enough, had been taken for granted.
Until Japan's defeat in the war of 1937-45 seemed likely, no Republican
government had challenged the legality of the Treaty of Shimonoseki by
which the Qing had ceded the island to Japan; and for no major political
movement, including the Communists, had it been *terra irredenta.*"
William C. Kirby, "The Internationalization of China: Foreign Relations
At Home and Abroad in the Republican Era," p. 185, n. 25 in Frederick
Wakeman, Jr. and Richard Louis Edmonds (eds.) *Reappraising Republican
China* (Oxford University Press 2000).
http://books.google.com/books?id=GNLWtjV_MDwC&pg=PA185
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And this article covering Chiang Kai-Shek's proposal to rule the islands jointly with the United States:

The Reversion of Okinawa as the Origin of the Senkaku Islands Issue – Chiang Kai-shek and his Turbulent Seeds in East Asia – | Readings | Review of Island Studies

Launched in June 2013 by the OPRF Center for Island Studies to promote deeper understanding of a broad range of island-related issues through specialist
www.spf.org www.spf.org
 
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PolishMagnet

PolishMagnet

wildviper121 said:
The Republic of China claimed the Senkaku and Ryukyu Islands. The map depicts islands to the southwest of Okinawa starting at Miyakojima as part of China. Okinawa is reverted to Japan.
See these many quotes:

And this article covering Chiang Kai-Shek's proposal to rule the islands jointly with the United States:

The Reversion of Okinawa as the Origin of the Senkaku Islands Issue – Chiang Kai-shek and his Turbulent Seeds in East Asia – | Readings | Review of Island Studies

Launched in June 2013 by the OPRF Center for Island Studies to promote deeper understanding of a broad range of island-related issues through specialist
www.spf.org www.spf.org
Click to expand...
Very nice sources! Thank you.

Today I learned something.
 
Višeslav

Višeslav

dreadnought jenkins said:
Why does the republic of China have the islands of ishigaki and Iriomote? Those are all part of Okinawa prefecture.
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To be fair, with a big, anticommunist KMT China (remember, a united China is a lot less likely to stay in line with US policy than a militarily dependent Taiwan), I can see the US allowing such little annexations from Japan for prestige/the flex to build good relations with China, who, being much stronger than Japan, the US might hope to make its primary ally in Asia.
 

Emperor-of-New-Zealand

Analytical Engine said:
Is the Republic of Columbia independent for the totally-obvious-reason?
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Pretty much. In my vague "series of events" when the British Isles revolt against the crown and landowners some time after the French mess ends and the Empire was in flux, the southrons decided to try Independence 2.0 and succeeded because nobody was quite sure what was going to happen next.
 

Minchandre

dreadnought jenkins said:
Why does the republic of China have the islands of ishigaki and Iriomote? Those are all part of Okinawa prefecture.
Click to expand...
The Okinawan Kingdom swore fealty to the Ming in 1429 and then went on to conquer the Ryukyus. When the Japanese conquered the islands in 1609, they let the islands continue to pay tribute to China - in fact, they insisted on it, and used the islands as a back door into the Chinese market. This was reaffirmed when the Qing replaced the Ming, and the islands only stopped formally being Chinese territory (by some interpretations) in 1879 when Japan formally annexed them as part of the Meiji reforms.

1879 isn't so far in the past of the 1940s for the islands to be beyond revanchism.
 
Baron Bizarre

Baron Bizarre

Latest update for my "work-in-progress" map. this time with Louisiana added.

The United Provinces of the New Netherlands.png

1)The Republicof Florida (San Agustín)

Chief Language: Spanish

Chief Language: Catholicism)

Government: Parliamentary democracy

Neighbors: Virginia on the North, Louisiana on the West, the Cubas (not shown) to the South

Relations With Their Neighbors: Shares in the general dislike of the Virginians. Gets along OK with the Louisianans. Formerly had territorial disputes with the Cubas (over what we would call "The Bahamas"). They now get along well as members of the "Thanks, Big Brother Mexico, But We'd Rather Not Become Your Newest States" Club.

Note: Not my most "developed" idea, perhaps, but I've always wondered what kind of distinct national identity Florida might have developed if it had remained Spanish. I resisted the urge to have them have an "Hombre de Florida" type reputation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2)The Empire of Louisiana (Nouvelle-Orléans)

Chief Language: French

Chief Religion: Catholicism

Government: "Constitutional" monarchy. In practice, corruption is widespread, but it is a point of pride to never take too much and to never take anyone's last cent.

Neighbors: The New Netherlands on the North, Virginia and Florida on the East and Mexico on the West.

Relations With Their Neighbors: A member of the "We Hate Virginia" Club with Florida and the New Netherlands. Formerly had territorial disputes with Mexico, has accepted that they're not getting the land back. Their control of the lower Mississippi earns them a tidy sum in "shippng fees".

Note: Founded by a charismatic colonial governor who took advantage of turmoil in Old France to declare the territory's independence and to name himself Emperor. Somehow shambles along despite outdsiders' regular predictions over the decades of their imminent demise. Has a long-distance rivalry with New France over which of them is the true heir to the spirit of France.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)The Commonwealth of New England (Boston)

Chief Language: English

Chief Religion: Protestantism (Religious tolerance exists in theory. but in practice, the non-Protestant population is vanishingly small. Catholic and other immigrants from Europe tended to go to the New Netherlands, Florida, the Cubas, Louisiana or Mexico.)

Government: Parliamentary democracy, somewhat more conservative and less tolerant than the New Netherlands

Neighbors: New France on the North, the New Netherlands on the West.

Relations With Their Neighbors: Longstanding territorial disputes with New France, whom they think of as a hereditary enemy. Has set aside similar disputes with the New Netherlands, with the realization that they need Nieuw Amsterdam's good offices as a counterweight to Québec.

Note: A small nation that feels "hemmed in" by its neighbors. Has an international reputation as a "nation of small-town lawyers".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4)The United Provinces of the New Netherlands (Nieuw Amsterdam)

Chief Language: Amerikaans (I'm imagining something closer to the ancestral Dutch than OTL Afrikaans is, but further than American English is from British English is, if that makes any sense, which it may not)

Chief Religions: Protestantism, Catholicism (Various flavors of Christianity are the vast majority, but religious tolerance is practiced.)

Government: Parliamentary democracy, what we would call "left of center", with racial tolerance and tolerance for persons of different sexualities, and so on. It's not a paradise, but overall, it's a pretty good place to live.

Neighbors: New France on the North, New England on the East, Louisiana and Virginia on the South, and Lakhota and Mexico on the West.

Relations With Their Neighbors:
  1. Lakhota: the :Lakhota are a proud people, and make much of the fact that they are the only Native North American people to retain their independence, but their leaders are well aware that they retained their independence because the Mexicans, New Netherlanders and New French found it expedient to leave them as a buffer state rather than fight a war over the territory. Relations with the New Netherlands are generally good, and Nieuw Amsterdam allows the Lakhota to maintain certain sacred sites on their territory.
  2. Lousiana: The New Netherlanders get along well enough with the genial kleptocrats in Nouvelle-Orléans, the moreso since neither of them likes the Virginians much.
  3. Mexico: Mexico is one of TTL's super-powers, stretching from the border with Imperial Russia (about midway through IOTL's British Columbia) down into South America. The Mexicans consider the Americas their sphere of influence and like their neighbors to behave themselves, so everyone tends to keep quiet so the Mexicans won't decide to "teach" them how to behave.
  4. New England: There were territorial disputes in the early Nineteenth Century, Later, the Yankees were happy to have the good offices of Nieuw Amsterdam to keep the New French off their backs.
  5. New France: Relations are cool but correct. There are no current disputes, but the two nations are not overly fond of one another, largely because New France sees the New Netherlanders as being too cozy with their old rivals in Louisiana.
  6. Virginia: There were disputes in the Ninetenth Century over Nieuw Amsterdam's refusal to return escaped slaves, coming close to war on more than one occasion. However, the fact that they are surrounded by nations that don'tb like them much (The New Netherlands, Lousiana and Florida on the south) have kept them from getting too frisky.

Note: Heavily into what we would call "green" or "alternative" energy sources. Think of themselves as the "one sane nation" in the Americas.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------5)The Commonwealth of Virginia (Williamsburg)

Chief Language: English

Chief Religions: Church of Virginia (Protestant) is the church of upper and middle class whites, various other Protestant sects/cults are followed by poor whites and non-whites.

Government: An "aristocratic republic". dominated by a white upper class from wealthy "old families" (the franchise is based on property ownership) that works assiduously to keep the poor whites, African-descended people and what few Native Americans survive divided. Slavery was technically abolished in the early Twentieth Century, but Blacks are still heavily oppressed.

Neighbors: The New Netherlands on the North, Florida on the South and Louisiana on the West.

Relations With Their Neighbors: The Virginian ruling class looks down on the New Netherlanders as vulgar, bourgeois shopkeepers and farmers, the Floridians as savage mongrels and the Louisianans as degenerate mongrels. Occasionally they like to make noises about putting them all in their places, but are well aware that they wouldn't stand a chance against the three of them, and that's without even taking into consideration what the Mexicans might do.

Note: Somewhat of a pariah among nations that like to think of themselves as "civilized". Their chief export is tobacco whic sells well enough in countries that don't pvermiuch worry aboutnwhether foreign workers are exploited. When a Mexican scientist worked out that smokng is bad for you, the Virginians took it as part of a conspiracy to wreck their economy.
 
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UserPhantom

https://imgur.com/a/Ac1mUOO
Essentially a project I am working on with France and it's allies essentially winning the seven years' war. This leads to Austria-Hungary giving Austrian Netherlands to France for it's help in the war and the Italian campaigns led by a young up and coming military officer named Napoleon Bonaparte. The Bourbon's are still in power as France rises to be the new superpower of the 19th century.
 
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