Map Thread XIX

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Just working on my first AH Scenario. What if the US was never pulled into the war in Europe. the Revolution Triumphant

1963.png

1963, Earth. a new cold war

West
Pink=British Empire
Blue=member of the London pact.
(USA, Canada, Australia, Japan, Free France, South Africa, Spain, Portugal, Norway, Sweeden, Finland, Iceland, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, South Italy)
Grey-blue=member of the Organization of American states, (wester allied )
(Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Canada, USA, Chile, Colombia, Costa rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Hati, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peur, Uruguay, Venezuela, )
Gold= Ethiopian Empire

East
Dark red= Soviet Union and her allies
((the USSR, Poland, Prussia, Bavaria, Austria, Hanover, the Rhineland, Denmark, Czechoslovakia, Metropolitan France, Luxembourg, Belgium, Netherlands, North Italy, Korea, Yugoslavia, Albanian, Greece, Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Iran, Afganistan, Burma, Vietnam, Mongolia))
Green = United Arab Republic
Red = Peoples Republic of China

Major Nonalliend

brown = india

point of Divergence, September 12th 1940
 
WIP map questions:
I have some questions about a map that I'm working on. The POD is simply the French winning the 7 years war (wow shocker, how original, though to be fair, the only finished TL I know of with this premise is Disaster at Leuthen), to be specific, there are 3: British loss at the planes of Abraham and in the Carnatic wars as well as a longer lived empress Elizabeth of Russia (pretty standard stuff, I just want to make a few maps). This map is more or less North America in the modern day, though since I'm far from fully figuring out the earlier parts of the TL, if it can be called that, if I continue to add to it, the map might change. As for info pertinent to my questions, the Spanish empire survives longer, I was thinking up to the Carlist wars, though those may or may not happen so maybe some other major war in Spain or another big European war. The Russians, while during the war allied with the French grow increasingly dissatisfied with their ability to expand in Europe and drift towards the British over time, which is why they are allowed to go so deep into North America (though I intend to add some former British colony somewhere in there).

Whilst everyone seems to be concentrating on the East Coast/Louisiana area, can I say how unlikely I find it that Russia or Spain would agree to borders along Lat/Long lines. Russia had the opportunity to do this in OTL Alaska and went with more natural borders.
Reality is that Spain had claims right up into Alaska and Russia way down into California so more of an organic border, possibly with exclaves, would be my preference.
Russia only became a Pacific Naval power Mid-Late 19C so perhaps British Vancouver Is would be viable but Oregon seems just a bit too south of the Sparsely populated Borealia to be colonized by anything other than sea. British Sea power is going to depend on your TL.
 
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Ok going from the map

Abyssinia is neutral and apparently independent, so no second italo-abyssinian war and no waste of italian resources there and there are also no Jugoslavia with just Megaserbia and Slovenia and Croatia sandwitched between Italy, Germany and Jugoslavia (not considering Red Hungary).
Spain is in civil war? Otherwise not only there are even less waste for Italy

Italy is still under Mussolini. The Italians never went after Abyssinia, because ITTL Mussolini only came to power after a much harder version of the Biennio Rosso that very nearly tipped over into civil war a few times. Italy's still not quite peaceful at home, so there's a lot less will for foreign adventures.

Regarding the URSS and the USA (or all the other communist nation) supplying each others, well one must consider that not only they must fight agaisnt the Royal Navy but also the Marine Nationale, Regia Marina and the IJN...and honestly if the red navy is like OTL they will be out of the game very soon; the USA on the other hand if they had gone through a civil war recently they will be in worse position than OTL regarding building a two ocean navy (and they have lost their bases in the Philippines and Haway) but on the other hand their army (and air force) will have at least a more modern doctrine and better training from the beginning.
Technological wise, well for the USA there will be also no Tizard mission and a lot less emigration from both workers and scientist...so they will be also a tech gap

Like you say, America is both weaker due to its civil war, but also more paranoid and militarily oriented, due to the fact that it is A) a socialist state in a hostile capitalist world, and B) that plenty of European powers intervened in the recent Civil War on behalf of the Whites, leaving a similar invasion paranoia to OTL USSR. They've been building up their navy and army in the years since the end of the civil war (1922, though scattered resistance continued for some time afterwards), so while they're not quite up to OTL standards, they'll definitely be no pushovers.

Versailles seem to be different from OTL or at least the 20/30 very different, we had Anshluss, no polish corridor and lithuania is a little larger (poor Poland)

The POD is really in the 1890s, but the big shockwaves come when WWI starts a few years earlier. Since this means a lot more dead and a lot more national suffering, when the post-war revolutionary wave hits, it's much worse than OTL, with conditions that very nearly resemble a full scale pan-European civil war. Bela Kun's soviet republic has much more popular support and manages to last a few more months. The Red Army actually manages to take Warsaw and hold Poland for a little while before being thrown back. Germany dissolves into full-on civil war from 1919-21, before the anti-communist forces are victorious. Italy comes very close to the same. Even France and Britain see large-scale general strikes that flirt with revolution.

Europe is mostly pacified and revolution suppressed everywhere but Russia by 1922, but it's a close-run thing (or at least it's seen that way). In 1920, the darkest year of the crisis, it really looked to many as if all of Europe would go communist. Asa result European governments are much more firmly anti-communist than IOTL, if you can imagine. Even fairly moderate parties like the SPD or UK Labour are either banned or reduced to small, powerless minority organizations.

The result is a lot of immediate post-war national animosities recede before the terror of bolshevism the east, and the determination to never let it take root again as it nearly did in 1920.

So Britain and France are much more lenient with Germany than IOTL, seeing a strong Germany as a solid insurance against the much greater threat of communism. Thus Germany and Austria are allowed to unify post-war, and Germany keeps its land around Danzig. Likewise, when Germany demands the Sudetenland, there is not too much protest.

(Poland is quite a bit weaker due to the harder Soviet-Polish war, which is why Lithuania managed to snatch that strip).

I also should clarify--not all red countries on the map are outright communist. The USSR and Socialist America (still not sure what its name should be) are the only two full-on socialist states on earth (and some would even count them as one very loosely federated state, as the Comintern is much stronger ITTL). The rest of the countries associated with the Comintern are merely allies for some reason or another, usually under left-leaning but not outright revolutionary governments. This is Hungary's situation, for example, which explains why she hasn't been crushed despite being surrounded by anti-communist states on all sides.

Italy is fascist? If not we can have a much m ore efficient military but in any case in an alliance like that, his OTL problem of supply are magically gone
Germany? Nazi, generic authoritarian regime or continuation of Weimar Republic? Jews situation
Canada is neutral? It's no more a Dominion member of the British Empire? I think that they will be scared a lot for their new neighbourg...unless under new management

Italy is still under Mussolini, though as pretty much all European countries are under some form of authoritarian, anti-communist government (of varying degrees) he doesn't stick out as much. Germany is under a rightist dictatorship, though I'm not sure who the leader is. It's a more traditional, conservative regime, though the Nazis still exist and cannot be discounted. Jews don't have a great time here but they aren't going to be exterminated.

Canada declared independence from the Empire a few years earlier, under heavy pressure from the Americans, who did not want a base of operations for the British on their northern border. Canada is kind of in a situation like Finland with the USSR IOTL. Keep your head down, smile at the big scary red neighbor, don't cause trouble.

Sure the communist can prop up some leftist group, but this are the 30's not the OTL 60's, there are a lot lot less of them, there are much more limited nationalist and independentist movement (90% of them are in India) and they are much more difficult to supply as there is not the widespread distrubution of weapon due to (still) no WW2 and the ports are under european control so they can smuggle something but not that much. Take as example Lybia, fascist or not fascist the pacification will happen more or less like OTL and after that the locals had fear to even look funny to the italians.

I agree anti-colonial movements won't be as much a help as I may have made them seem.

While you are right that the anticommunist alliance is widespread and different, a lot of them had serious beef with russia previusly and they know that if the communist/russian arrive their independence will be gone and the bad old days will come back, so they have a lot of incentive to fight

Plus what type of communist regime are the USA and the URSS? Stalinist type will have an hard job to survive any invasion that's not have genocide as objective like the Nazi one, as anyone more sane can get much much more local support

The revolution in America provided a sort of check on the USSR's undisputed global leadership of the communist movement, and in turn a check on Stalin's personal ambition. Collective leadership in the USSR still exists. This doesn't necessarily mean it's a great place to live, though, as instead of one determined tyrant the Soviet people have a few dozen squabbling tyrants. I think, if an invasion is launched, they would still fight back, so long as the invaders are cruel enough. They don't have to be outright genocidal, since I think even IOTL most Red Army men probably didn't know the Nazis intended to outright wipe out most eastern slavs. The invaders simply have to be more oppressive and brutal than the Soviet government.

America is also not a great place to live. Not as bad as OTL USSR during the Great Purge but still not the kind of place you'd want to live if you had a choice. Badmouthing the revolution and the government will likely earn you a hefty prison sentence and your family a permanent police escort.

That said, most places ITTL are not the kind of places you'd want to live if you had a choice. Oppressive policies in the Comintern bloc probably won't lead to any mass sympathies or defections to the enemy, because they frankly aren't any better.
 
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Whilst everyone seems to be concentrating on the East Coast/Louisiana area, can I say how unlikely I find it that Russia or Spain would agree to borders along Lat/Long lines. Russia had the opportunity to do this in OTL Alaska and went with more natural borders.
Reality is that Spain had claims right up into Alaska and Russia way down into California so more of an organic border, possibly with exclaves, would be my preference.
Russia only became a Pacific Naval power Mid-Late 19C so perhaps British Vancouver Is would be viable but Oregon seems just a bit too south of the Sparsely populated Borealia to be colonized by anything other than sea. British Sea power is going to depend on your TL.

You're right about the need for messier borders, I'll try to fix that. Exclaves. hmmmm. That's not something you see a lot in ATLs, but they will be much more common ITTL anyway so why not a few here. Probably mostly or only by the coast. Maybe Fort Ross as a Russian exclave. As for Britain, this is far from a fully planned/fleshed out TL, but I don't see their navy being destroyed or substantially weakened during the war, and if I go with an early loss of Hanover, then there ends up being an even larger connection with/emphasis on the ITTL already more coastally focused colonies, so I'd expect a continued powerful naval presence, so I think that at least some land in the OTL Oregon country (which means southern BC to Oregon, so a lot of leeway within that for diffwill be British (I'll go with southern Vancouver Island and the Salish Sea coast as their early landing points and center of settlement). I think that a longer-lived Spanish empire might actually push north a fair bit along the coast into OTL Oregon state. I'm not sure about Anglo Oregonese exclaves though.
 
Belgium neutral, but Congo in the pact? (also the Netherlands in the pact despite a strict neutrality policy since the Napoleonic Era? Unrest in Indonesia as reason?)

I forgot to color Belgium : /

Netherlands dances to Germany's tune at this point, which explains their inclusion.
 
The United Arab Jamahirya
1581390322731.png

Gaddafi's legacy
In the 2000’s, Libyan dictator Muhammad Gaddafi begins to go fund cyber warfare, calling some of the best hackers and scientists to Libya to work for large sums of money. In 2011, as the Arab spring was going on, Egyptian and Tunisian online assets were turned against them and transferred to Libya. The Libyan army quickly stormed through the now collapsed countries in anarchy. They were integrated into Libya, and the United Arab Jamahirya was founded, which is usually known as the Jamahirya.

Cyber warfare was beginning to expand internationally after the Jamahirya’s takeover of Egypt and Tunisia, and in 2018 a worldwide cyberwar broke out between the United States, Russia and China, devastating the economies of those countries (but not collapsing them entirely). As the rest of the world was in chaos, the Jamahirya thrived, and it’s economy boomed from a stream of educated refugees from Europe. In 2019, the nation invaded Israel and Palestine, easily storming through them with its superior firewalls and hacking capabilities. The war ended when the Jamahiryans hacked a nuclear submarine and threatened to use it against the two enemies.

There were plans to go invade Chad to regain the Auzou strip, but Colonel Gaddafi died today on February 11th in his sleep. He has not picked a successor, but time will tell what will happen to the nation which invented the newest and possibly most dangerous form of warfare in history.

(Note, the link in the title shows the full image file)​
 
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Just some cross-posting from the new MoTF.
It had always been the same, barbarians would invade, push the boundaries of the Khemert Empire back, then within a generation they would be assimilated and re-annexed. With that said, the Khemert Empire was always a multicultural one, and as such the spread of its faith was always the most important factor in determining whether a tribe would be re-annexed. It was like that for as long as anybody knew.
Then the Horde came. Thousands of barbarians came down from almost all sided, pushing the Khemerts back in droves, destroying their temples, desecrating holy grounds, and leaving bones, blood, and flames in their path. When the dust settled, the Khemert Empire was a fraction of its former self, the only legacy left being small pockets of Khemertism's followers located throughout the lands once under the Khemert Empires control.
View attachment 522765
 
You're right about the need for messier borders
Oh no, what have you done. My obsessive need to find antanaclasis everywhere has caused me to make a map of “Messier borders”–specifically a list of scientific posts and affiliated cities established by the Société Française de Pédanterie Obséquieuse et de Linguistique Rhétorique Obscure under Charles Messier, whose obsessive need to transcribe his discovered astronomical objects onto a map of the Earth to forever enshrine his discoveries led to their establishment. This is your fault.
messier.png

The nature and type of the various scientific locations is an exercise left to the reader. I decided to carry the idea barely further forward than “Hey, maybe I could make a joke about messier vs. Messier” when I saw that the objects in question, when viewed on the aforementioned map, appeared to match the shape of the North American coast (and other points on other continents) fairy well.
 
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