Map Thread XIII

[Kibbutznik]

Yeah Japan even then doesn't have an industry advantage period. Also you don't think Stalin's spies are going to discover what happened to Russia during the war? You don't think anything about what happened during the war isn't going to leak out? Hell don't forget Japan IS STILL AT WAR WITH THE US! They could Pearl Harbor themselves all over again by attacking the US before they discover what happened AND this time they don't have a fleet capable of defending them anymore.

You do realize that if Japan goes back to 1935 from 1945, it will know exactly what had happened from 1941 to 1945? That they will know why Pearl Harbour failed, and have the fleet they had in 1945 PLUS what they will build from 1935 to 1941?
And that, in 1935, they weren't at war with America, meaning that they still have time to prepare?

 

[Kibbutznik]

Oh, it’s a gorgeous map; it’s just unrealistic.



That’s an interesting thought. If a country–by way of war or secession–loses its foothold in Europe, would it be rendered ineligible for the EU? Turn it around, too. If a country gains new land on the European continent, would it get EU membership potential?

Are there such states in existence? Russia comes to mind, but they're dominated by a European culture and ethnicity, with the core being to the west of the Urals...

 

[DireSituation]

How in the hell is a Japan that's been ISOTed from January of 1945 to 1935 end up with that?

To be clear, it's just the home islands and a bit of Korea that get ISOT'd.

In addition to everything BMN and Suvareshkin said, future Japan has a wealth of knowledge regarding everything compared to everyone else in 1935. They also have a full two years of peacetime to revamp and consolidate their military doctrine and technology.

 

[Clandango]

If memory serves me correctly, the majority of the Japanese army and navy has vanished as they were in China or other areas. And I doubt the Japanese would support the Germans let alone the Spanish and Italians. Why on Earth would they? If anything, the Germans would be crushed the moment they try remilotarizing the Rhineland, and if news of the enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Frenchmen and Italians, and the murder of over ten million civilians is revealed them the full military might of Europe is turned on Germany. All the while the Japanese try setting up several puppet states in China, saving up on the scrap metal and oil the U.S. would still send, as at this point they hadn't been cut off for seizing half of French Indochina,

 

[Admiral Halsey]

You do realize that if Japan goes back to 1935 from 1945, it will know exactly what had happened from 1941 to 1945? That they will know why Pearl Harbour failed, and have the fleet they had in 1945 PLUS what they will build from 1935 to 1941?
And that, in 1935, they weren't at war with America, meaning that they still have time to prepare?

Except the fleet from 35 is gone and Japan has what it had left in 45 instead.

 

[Kibbutznik]

Except the fleet from 35 is gone and Japan has what it had left in 45 instead.

Will it though? This is my personal problem with ISOT's, I never know exactly gets replaced or not.

 

[B_Munro]

Their technological know-how improvement from 1935 to 1945 isn't that great, and their industrial base is still relatively minor compared to the US. Since any war they start will go differently from OTL, their knowledge of how _our_ war went will be of limited utility, and the military leadership is still wearing it's ideological blinders. Best they can do against the US is lose more slowly: if Japan is sent back before Hiroshima, they don't know an atomic bomb is even possible, and are unlikely to have one by 1945.

And again, knowing how things went 1935-1945 OTL will be of limited use to the Nazis, since they have their own ideological blinders and history will be badly butterflied already by the time they are actually ready to fight in 1939-40. On top of that, as mentioned, given that they can't keep the fact that this is a time-travelling Japan secret for long, everyone will be doing their best to spy out what happened: and if Stalin gets a good notion of what is going to happen, Hitler is simply fucked.

edit: send 1945 Japan back to 1915, and there's a serious chance of a wank. But you don't get to have your Nazi wank then.

Bruce

 

[wtw]

Their technological know-how improvement from 1935 to 1945 isn't that great, and their industrial base is still relatively minor compared to the US. Since any war they start will go differently from OTL, their knowledge of how _our_ war went will be of limited utility, and the military leadership is still wearing it's ideological blinders. Best they can do against the US is lose more slowly: if Japan is sent back before Hiroshima, they don't know an atomic bomb is even possible, and are unlikely to have one by 1945.

And again, knowing how things went 1935-1945 OTL will be of limited use to the Nazis, since they have their own ideological blinders and history will be badly butterflied already by the time they are actually ready to fight in 1939-40. On top of that, as mentioned, given that they can't keep the fact that this is a time-travelling Japan secret for long, everyone will be doing their best to spy out what happened: and if Stalin gets a good notion of what is going to happen, Hitler is simply fucked.

edit: send 1945 Japan back to 1915, and there's a serious chance of a wank. But you don't get to have your Nazi wank then.

Bruce

That far back and you get Japan ruling the world

 

[Zek Sora]

Thinking of an addition to my MotF entry (link here for anyone interested), but losing steam a bit. So, I've been trying out some new techniques on it. Thoughts?

 

[B_Munro]

That far back and you get Japan ruling the world

Is this overestimate Japan week and nobody told me?

 

[Lateknight]

Is this overestimate Japan week and nobody told me?

I guess some people the internet think a little too much of japan, who knew?

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

WIP of an ISOT'd Japan from January 1945 to 1935.

To me, this looks more like an attempt to map The Ultimate Solution

 

[Clandango]

Still a fun map, of course. I would be interested in seeing one with the Hungarins, Bulgarians, and Thai sent back in time from the same dates.

 

[area11]

Still a fun map, of course. I would be interested in seeing one with the Hungarins, Bulgarians, and Thai sent back in time from the same dates.

By January 1945 Bulgaria had switched sides and was now under a pro-soviet government and Budapest was just about to fall to the red army.

 

[Clandango]

By January 1945 Bulgaria had switched sides and was now under a pro-soviet government and Budapest was just about to fall to the red army.

Even better. Think of the Crusade against Communism. Or how the Bulgarians and Hungarians curse out the Germans for starting the whole mess, in the case of Hungary showing just how well the Nazis treated their allies. Though of course it was to prevent them from switching sides and declaring war on them like the Italians did or the Finns technically did (no declaration, but still had to drive the Germans out), but you get the idea. And looking up 1945, I see that the Prime Minister of Egypt was assassinated moments after declaring war on the Axis. Unrelated, but interesting.

 

[Pischinovski]

Not sure why everyone is being a dick about the map. I think it looks excellent and dig the borders.

Thank you very much!

Amazing detail you've packed in here mate! Lovely piece of work to look at - can I ask where 'Elysion' as a name comes from?

Thanks! Elysion is Paradise in Greek mythology. It is named in the original German version of Ode to Joy, which is the European Anthem (Joy, beautiful divine spark from Elysium, ...).
I envisioned European Union that sees itself as the successor of the Roman-Hellenic empires (Alexander and Rome), a melting-pot of cultures with a "European Dream" of a social-liberal secular state guarateing everyone equal rights and opportunities.
But I have to admit that choosing "Elysion" was one of the harder choices I had to make.

We all know what the REAL implausible part of this map is, Switzerland in the EU? Now that's just crazy.

The CERN's LHC exploded killing everyone in Switzerland (and no one in France)... making space for the glorious European colony of North Malta

Very nice! I do question the expansion into the Mideast, though - even Turkey and the Transcaucasian countries are pushing it as far as the concept of "Europe" goes, and I don't think anyone would consider Kurdistan or the Levant European.

I notice Macedonia is just labeled as Macedonia, and not as the former Yugoslav Republic thereof - have they finally sorted out their naming dispute with Greece?

Europe is a pretty variable term. Look at the member states of the EBU (Australia will by the way return to the Eurovision Song Contest ). In this scenario the EU became the patron of secular states in the Middle East, incooporating them a few years before the map is set.

Isn't the EU limited solely to European Nations with Turkey and Russia being the realistic limits?

As far as I know there is nothing limiting the EU from admitting non European states into the Union.

>even Turkey and the Transcaucasian countries are pushing it as far as the concept of "Europe" goes, and I don't think anyone would consider Kurdistan or the Levant European.
The EU as a whole being presumed as likely-to-continue-existing - you can really make a fairly strong case for all sorts of EU expansions. Morocco? Tunisia? Belarus? All rather up in the air. Guess we'll have to see how the century goes on that point.

(It occurs to me; in at least one prospective future someone is determinedly arguing for a definition of the European continent that includes slices of the moon and several orbital habitats that also Definitely Does Not Include Turkey)

Yeah Europe is pretty vaguely defined.

Aren't Azerbaijan Azeri people and Iranian Azeri people both the same ethnic group? Just split across countries like the Kurds?

As far as I know they are.

 

[Ashtagon]

As far as I know there is nothing limiting the EU from admitting non European states into the Union.

As I understand it, the current EU law restricts membership to those countries that are at least partly inside of continental Europe. There's no rules that says this rule can't be changed, but it is a fairly fundamental part of what the EU is. It'd be a bit like if the USA had incorporated South Korea or the Philippines as a state in terms of weirdness factor.

 

[Pischinovski]

As I understand it, the current EU law restricts membership to those countries that are at least partly inside of continental Europe. There's no rules that says this rule can't be changed, but it is a fairly fundamental part of what the EU is. It'd be a bit like if the USA had incorporated South Korea or the Philippines as a state in terms of weirdness factor.

I admit that the Union's eastern borders are uncoventional but In my eyes not impossible. I think South Korea or the Philippines are not the best examples, considering how extremly far away they are from the US-mainland.

 

[Lowtuff]

I admit that the Union's eastern borders are uncoventional but In my eyes not impossible. I think South Korea or the Philippines are not the best examples, considering how extremly far away they are from the US-mainland.

What'd be a better analogue for the US - Guyana? Panama? The Russian far east ala AANW?

 

[Transparent Blue]

What'd be a better analogue for the US - Guyana? Panama? The Russian far east ala AANW?

Hawai'i?
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