Map Thread XII
- Thread starter Baconheimer
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Me too, to be very honest, but it just doesn't seem possible anymore after all the wars...
I'm a fan of three-state solutions, but this just screams "bantustan" to me. It'd be easier if Palestine was bigger (ideally 1948 borders, but that might not be realistic given the number and age of Israeli settlements within those borders) and a bit less restricted politically. At the very least, have the rules about government formation also apply to Israel - radical Zionism is every bit as damaging and unwanted as radical Islamism, and the same steps should be taken to prevent it.
Yeah, true. And yes, the Israeli settlements are a pain in the arse...
His USSR includes Germany, Austria, Czech Republic, Hungary, and you're asking about Finland which has historically been an integrated part of the Russian state?
It was a part of Sweden any longer, but I don't see the Swedes demanding the reconquest of Finland. Aren't the Finns a little too well armed to allowed that to happen (by the Swedes I mean)?
maybe my eyes are playing tricks, but did the Golan just get WAY bigger then it normally is?
Alex Richards
Donor
maybe my eyes are playing tricks, but did the Golan just get WAY bigger then it normally is?
I think it contains the entire province of Quturba.
Voila.
Hell yes, they are. Even if we wanted to take Finland back (which we don't, FYI), we'd be eating humble pie for breakfast. Seriously, their army is like five times the size of ours.
maybe my eyes are playing tricks, but did the Golan just get WAY bigger then it normally is?
It's not way bigger. It does include the UNDOF zone, now also Israeli territory, because Syria has become a complete mess and the UN had difficulties (ITTL) administering the buffer zone (Syrian refugees used it to enter Israel; since it's Israeli territory now, the border is shorter, so easier to control (no DMZ anymore). Maybe this doesn't make any sense at all, but well... I think the people of the Golan Heights might even be happier inside Israel, as living in Syria is way more dangerous.
EDIT - Probably going to change the Golan anyways, though.
That's much better as far as parity goes, but it's really hard to apply legislation specifically to organisations professing a certain ideology. A better solution might be something like in Northern Ireland, where all parties are required to be offered government status, but not to accept it - this has proven successful at moderating extremist groups there.
Just a silly, little WiP based on an earlier map I posted, which showed North America after a more successful War of American Indepence but with the small twist that this big victory divided the young nation from the start, leading to TTL, with the current year being somewhere in the 1920s, probably.
Just to clarify the names of the four BNA successor states (excluding dominions) are, from north to south: Federal Republic of Columbia, Commonwealth of Virginia, Free State of North Carolina, and the United States of Appalachia. And yes, Columbia is a colonial power of note.
Just to clarify the names of the four BNA successor states (excluding dominions) are, from north to south: Federal Republic of Columbia, Commonwealth of Virginia, Free State of North Carolina, and the United States of Appalachia. And yes, Columbia is a colonial power of note.
Hmm, can you explain that a bit because I don't really get how it works? If it moderates extremism, it's all right in any case though, but I'd still like to understand it haha
If you're giving the Jewish-majority parts of the West Bank to Israel, then shouldn't Palestine get the Arab-majority areas west of the Green Line (the Triangle, central Galilee, the Bedouin settlements in the Negev)? Make 'em both into Bantustans...
Something like that actually was proposed at one point. Nasser Abufarha's Alternative Palestinian Agenda - map here, to keep this reply on-topic - suggested a binational federation (IMO the only way in which a system with enclaves can be practically managed) in which each member state got the areas where its predominant ethnic group was a majority, down to the town level. Depending on your preference, you can call it either a single federal state or two states with an EU-style supranational overlay.
The Alternative Palestinian Agenda has, for some years now, been my ideal solution to this mess, with the proviso that each member state keep its army (as was done with the component parts of Bosnia after Dayton). Not, of course, that anyone's asking me.
United Provinces of South America
Really interesting; I've had a couple of gos at mapping out a contiguous Palestinian state around the settlements, but the result usually looks Bantustan-y. I suppose in extremis you could use the Jerusalem codominion to connect the two halves of the West Bank.
For what it's worth the Israeli government has set a precedent by arguing when sued by Israeli settlers in Gaza who were forced to move out in 2005 that the settlements there were temporary; the same reasoning could (and probably will) be applied to the West Bank (except Jerusalem, natch).
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Just something I've been working on in Inkscape - a more successful United Provinces that managed to hold onto/reconquer Uruguay and Paraguay, and united with Chile. In terms of international power and prestige it's somewhere between a (OTL) Brazil and a Germany, and is the world's leading finger-wagger against imperialism, albeit with rather more credibility as an unambiguously first-ranked power.
The map:
Really interesting; I've had a couple of gos at mapping out a contiguous Palestinian state around the settlements, but the result usually looks Bantustan-y. I suppose in extremis you could use the Jerusalem codominion to connect the two halves of the West Bank.
For what it's worth the Israeli government has set a precedent by arguing when sued by Israeli settlers in Gaza who were forced to move out in 2005 that the settlements there were temporary; the same reasoning could (and probably will) be applied to the West Bank (except Jerusalem, natch).
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Just something I've been working on in Inkscape - a more successful United Provinces that managed to hold onto/reconquer Uruguay and Paraguay, and united with Chile. In terms of international power and prestige it's somewhere between a (OTL) Brazil and a Germany, and is the world's leading finger-wagger against imperialism, albeit with rather more credibility as an unambiguously first-ranked power.
The map:
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I did this!
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Basic premise was that the Articles of Confederation fell apart during the French Revolution and an American Civil War occurred. New England came away stronger than the Free Republics of America (which are anything but free, being ruled by a dictator - still, it's about as small as government gets), with the rump United States (Pencil-vein-ia and Delaware) existing as a New England puppet buffer state. And yes, I am aware that the area within New England's borders is considerably more than actual New England, but the secessionist movement started as a New England breakaway state and things got a little out of hand.
In the middle lies the Kingdom of Louisiana, a Bourbon-ruled monarchy that made a successful attempt to reach the Pacific Ocean. Generally better off than France was under the monarchy, mostly due to their not being quite enough money to make the nobility that much richer than everybody else. Allied somewhat nervously with Britain, though keeping a close eye on that eastern border (the Free Republics might be tin-potty but they're militant and armed).
Farther west, the Republic of California, a Mexican breakaway state that ended up being a whole lot better than the Mexican Empire itself (also Bourbons, this time from the Spanish branch), and achieved enough of a navy to take part in the old Pacific colony game without being too obtrusive. Friendly with most other nations, even extending an olive branch to the old Bourbon emperor to the south (though he's less than recepticle).
Canada is still tied to the British crown, however is an independent state earlier than OTL, smugly looking at the other white settler colonies (British South Africa, British Australia and New We-Couldn't-Think-Of-An-Alternate-Name-Zealand) and wondering where they all went so wrong.
Farther south still, South America is something of a clusterfuck for some, but somewhat better for others. Brazil went the wrong way ITTL, falling to revolution after revolution. Portugal never got invaded in the ATL French Revolution, and as such the House of Braganza never fled to their colony. Brazil's independence was not peaceful by any means, and it eventually lost a chunk of its souther marches to the Federation of Mokuguay which began as a defence alliance between Paraguay and Uraguay.
Britain read a few too many cliched AH timelines and colonised Patagonia, throwing the Mapuche a bone and giving them a kingdom in the Andes (within the colony, of course. Wouldn't want a free nation run by up-start redskins!). Chile's been absolutely smashed by the Peruvian-Bolivian alliance (never entered into confederation ITTL) and Bolivia still has its coast (hoorah! Blue water navy!). Both Peru and Bolivia are considerably more first world than OTL.
Which is more than I can say for the Commonwealth of Columbia. TTL's red menace is hardly a menace, essentially confined to its borders by Peru in the west, British-backed Rio Orinoco to the east, Brazil to the south, and a shaky alliance of Central American states (again with British backing) to the north. Panama has a canal funded with German marks, while the one in Nicaragua is owned by a British company.
Over in Europe, the French during their revolution threw together a confederation of German nations which only ended up spurring German nationalism. Later, after the French had been utterly humiliated by the rest of Europe, a series of revolutions similar to those of 1848 but a few years earlier rocked Central Europe and resulted in the break-up of the Danubian monarchy, resulting in an independent Kingdom of Hungary, an independent-but-Hapsburg-ruled Kingdom of Bohemia, and a unified Germany including Austria, with House Hapsburg in charge of the Grand Duchy (however, the Austrian Littoral was annexed by the German crownlands, i.e. Prussia, in order to secure proper German control over sea-access to the Med).
Poland came later in a limited Russo-German War, which saw a Russian loss and resulted in massive imperial reforms. They managed to cling to Alaska despite the Canadians wanting it, and even the Californians made a bid for it, probably because they wanted to see for themselves whether polar bears were indeed more manly than grizzlies.
Northern Italy unified around the same time as the German Empire, but not into the Kingdom of Almost All of Italy as it did OTL, instead into the Federated Kingdom of Lombardy. They weren't about to go after Sicily, which ITTL came back into the Spanish fold through an accident of marriage, and Tuscany gained British backing for independence after the French Revolution, and the Pope is the Pope. However, the Papacy did lose a chunk of the eastern lands, divided between a Principality of Romagna and another Principality of Romagna that isn't part of Lombardy.
After losing Brazil, the Portuguese began to focus on other avenues to expand their meagre domains, and turned to the Congo. By the time the Scramble for Africa took place (earlier than OTL, mostly due to the nosy Portuguese) they had already ventured far enough into the dark continent to claim vast swathes of Central Africa. Now known as Portuguese Africa (it was Central Africa, but the Portuguese decided that wasn't grandiose enough so ditched the 'Central' part), it's largely self-governing, though still recognises the authority of Lisbon.
Without the French playing a large role, the Sahara was mostly left to the natives. The Empire of Mali and the Empire of Bornu arose with some European recognition, though the latter is in a curious case of line-drawing with Germany and Britain over the Libyan Desert. Germany claims some of it for themselves, Britain some for their protectorate over Egypt, while Bornu is a thorough user of the trade route to Khufra and have even occupied that city for themselves, and so they claim part of the desert for their northern reaches. But, you know, what to do these darkies know? And so, their claim is disregarded entirely and the Bornu garrison will be dispatched as soon as the Germans and British figure out who gets to invade.
As for the Middle East, a somewhat later Greek Revolution kicked off an early Balkan War, resulting in the Ottomans losing their hold over their European holdings (to an extent). This weakening of the Ottoman state eventually became all-out collapse, with the British leaping into the desert to take advantage as usual.
Because of a less-thorough Russian advance into Central Asia, the British saw it fit to outright conquer Afghanistan, although a good many governors have died in those steppes by now that the British are wondering if it's really worth it. If the Afghans are really that ballsy then perhaps they should be independent - not like the Russians could break through to India anyway!
China is this world's major clusterfuck. The civil war is a recent thing. The Japanese have genuine concerns over the stability of the region (and its resources) and have genuinely occupied a series of important coastal cities to keep the peace (genuinely), however they've failed to mention that it was all their fault to begin with for attempting to reinstate an emperor friendly to Japanese interests in Peking (there is an empire, but it's really more like an Empire (TM) 'made in Japan'). Manchuria is exploited like a colony despite being an 'equal part of the Japanese motherland' and the locals are starting to wonder why all their mail is addressed to Japanese surna-oh you sons of bitches. The rest of China is divided between a British-backed Turkic-nationalist state in the west, a number of rebels attempting to overthrow a corrupt republican government that honestly wasn't as bad as the people say it was (perhaps they thought it was too good to be true), and a string of terrorism across the countryside that is being attributed to mere anarchists.
The odd thing is, the people currently under the Japanese military heel along the coast are breathing a sigh of relief and flying Japanese flags, because let's face it, any kind of order is better than that major clusterfuck they once called home.
Austrlia is another oddity. Colonised considerably slower than OTL by the British, the Dutch managed to latch onto a few empty spots of the land in the west. Disagreements over who owns the largely empty or native-run interior has delayed things somewhat, so even in the current year the desert is still no-white-man's-land (except for the odd bush-whacker, though so many don't come back it's a wonder that any leave at all). New Zealand is still New Zealand, except there is a small spot of land in the heart of the North Island given over to the Kingitanga movement that sprung up in the face of European conquest. This was instead of an odd treaty which would force the local government to pay the tribes for 'stolen land' or some such nonsense, the proposer of that treaty promptly laughed at and sent west to Australia with the rest of the whackos.
Also going to throw in a casual mention to Mongolia, which hasn't figured out yet that they traded one master for another.
Oh, the year is 1920, although there's no prohibition and the woman's vote is more widespread.
--
Basic premise was that the Articles of Confederation fell apart during the French Revolution and an American Civil War occurred. New England came away stronger than the Free Republics of America (which are anything but free, being ruled by a dictator - still, it's about as small as government gets), with the rump United States (Pencil-vein-ia and Delaware) existing as a New England puppet buffer state. And yes, I am aware that the area within New England's borders is considerably more than actual New England, but the secessionist movement started as a New England breakaway state and things got a little out of hand.
In the middle lies the Kingdom of Louisiana, a Bourbon-ruled monarchy that made a successful attempt to reach the Pacific Ocean. Generally better off than France was under the monarchy, mostly due to their not being quite enough money to make the nobility that much richer than everybody else. Allied somewhat nervously with Britain, though keeping a close eye on that eastern border (the Free Republics might be tin-potty but they're militant and armed).
Farther west, the Republic of California, a Mexican breakaway state that ended up being a whole lot better than the Mexican Empire itself (also Bourbons, this time from the Spanish branch), and achieved enough of a navy to take part in the old Pacific colony game without being too obtrusive. Friendly with most other nations, even extending an olive branch to the old Bourbon emperor to the south (though he's less than recepticle).
Canada is still tied to the British crown, however is an independent state earlier than OTL, smugly looking at the other white settler colonies (British South Africa, British Australia and New We-Couldn't-Think-Of-An-Alternate-Name-Zealand) and wondering where they all went so wrong.
Farther south still, South America is something of a clusterfuck for some, but somewhat better for others. Brazil went the wrong way ITTL, falling to revolution after revolution. Portugal never got invaded in the ATL French Revolution, and as such the House of Braganza never fled to their colony. Brazil's independence was not peaceful by any means, and it eventually lost a chunk of its souther marches to the Federation of Mokuguay which began as a defence alliance between Paraguay and Uraguay.
Britain read a few too many cliched AH timelines and colonised Patagonia, throwing the Mapuche a bone and giving them a kingdom in the Andes (within the colony, of course. Wouldn't want a free nation run by up-start redskins!). Chile's been absolutely smashed by the Peruvian-Bolivian alliance (never entered into confederation ITTL) and Bolivia still has its coast (hoorah! Blue water navy!). Both Peru and Bolivia are considerably more first world than OTL.
Which is more than I can say for the Commonwealth of Columbia. TTL's red menace is hardly a menace, essentially confined to its borders by Peru in the west, British-backed Rio Orinoco to the east, Brazil to the south, and a shaky alliance of Central American states (again with British backing) to the north. Panama has a canal funded with German marks, while the one in Nicaragua is owned by a British company.
Over in Europe, the French during their revolution threw together a confederation of German nations which only ended up spurring German nationalism. Later, after the French had been utterly humiliated by the rest of Europe, a series of revolutions similar to those of 1848 but a few years earlier rocked Central Europe and resulted in the break-up of the Danubian monarchy, resulting in an independent Kingdom of Hungary, an independent-but-Hapsburg-ruled Kingdom of Bohemia, and a unified Germany including Austria, with House Hapsburg in charge of the Grand Duchy (however, the Austrian Littoral was annexed by the German crownlands, i.e. Prussia, in order to secure proper German control over sea-access to the Med).
Poland came later in a limited Russo-German War, which saw a Russian loss and resulted in massive imperial reforms. They managed to cling to Alaska despite the Canadians wanting it, and even the Californians made a bid for it, probably because they wanted to see for themselves whether polar bears were indeed more manly than grizzlies.
Northern Italy unified around the same time as the German Empire, but not into the Kingdom of Almost All of Italy as it did OTL, instead into the Federated Kingdom of Lombardy. They weren't about to go after Sicily, which ITTL came back into the Spanish fold through an accident of marriage, and Tuscany gained British backing for independence after the French Revolution, and the Pope is the Pope. However, the Papacy did lose a chunk of the eastern lands, divided between a Principality of Romagna and another Principality of Romagna that isn't part of Lombardy.
After losing Brazil, the Portuguese began to focus on other avenues to expand their meagre domains, and turned to the Congo. By the time the Scramble for Africa took place (earlier than OTL, mostly due to the nosy Portuguese) they had already ventured far enough into the dark continent to claim vast swathes of Central Africa. Now known as Portuguese Africa (it was Central Africa, but the Portuguese decided that wasn't grandiose enough so ditched the 'Central' part), it's largely self-governing, though still recognises the authority of Lisbon.
Without the French playing a large role, the Sahara was mostly left to the natives. The Empire of Mali and the Empire of Bornu arose with some European recognition, though the latter is in a curious case of line-drawing with Germany and Britain over the Libyan Desert. Germany claims some of it for themselves, Britain some for their protectorate over Egypt, while Bornu is a thorough user of the trade route to Khufra and have even occupied that city for themselves, and so they claim part of the desert for their northern reaches. But, you know, what to do these darkies know? And so, their claim is disregarded entirely and the Bornu garrison will be dispatched as soon as the Germans and British figure out who gets to invade.
As for the Middle East, a somewhat later Greek Revolution kicked off an early Balkan War, resulting in the Ottomans losing their hold over their European holdings (to an extent). This weakening of the Ottoman state eventually became all-out collapse, with the British leaping into the desert to take advantage as usual.
Because of a less-thorough Russian advance into Central Asia, the British saw it fit to outright conquer Afghanistan, although a good many governors have died in those steppes by now that the British are wondering if it's really worth it. If the Afghans are really that ballsy then perhaps they should be independent - not like the Russians could break through to India anyway!
China is this world's major clusterfuck. The civil war is a recent thing. The Japanese have genuine concerns over the stability of the region (and its resources) and have genuinely occupied a series of important coastal cities to keep the peace (genuinely), however they've failed to mention that it was all their fault to begin with for attempting to reinstate an emperor friendly to Japanese interests in Peking (there is an empire, but it's really more like an Empire (TM) 'made in Japan'). Manchuria is exploited like a colony despite being an 'equal part of the Japanese motherland' and the locals are starting to wonder why all their mail is addressed to Japanese surna-oh you sons of bitches. The rest of China is divided between a British-backed Turkic-nationalist state in the west, a number of rebels attempting to overthrow a corrupt republican government that honestly wasn't as bad as the people say it was (perhaps they thought it was too good to be true), and a string of terrorism across the countryside that is being attributed to mere anarchists.
The odd thing is, the people currently under the Japanese military heel along the coast are breathing a sigh of relief and flying Japanese flags, because let's face it, any kind of order is better than that major clusterfuck they once called home.
Austrlia is another oddity. Colonised considerably slower than OTL by the British, the Dutch managed to latch onto a few empty spots of the land in the west. Disagreements over who owns the largely empty or native-run interior has delayed things somewhat, so even in the current year the desert is still no-white-man's-land (except for the odd bush-whacker, though so many don't come back it's a wonder that any leave at all). New Zealand is still New Zealand, except there is a small spot of land in the heart of the North Island given over to the Kingitanga movement that sprung up in the face of European conquest. This was instead of an odd treaty which would force the local government to pay the tribes for 'stolen land' or some such nonsense, the proposer of that treaty promptly laughed at and sent west to Australia with the rest of the whackos.
Also going to throw in a casual mention to Mongolia, which hasn't figured out yet that they traded one master for another.
Oh, the year is 1920, although there's no prohibition and the woman's vote is more widespread.
The Israeli Arabs very badly do not want to join any Palestinian state.
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