Map project: alternate medieval Great Britain

[TheseusDeuteros]

Hi!

I was thinking of starting a new map project: creating an alternate, Holy Roman Empire-esque Great Britain, full of kingdoms, Viking fiefdoms, small tribal kingdoms, earldoms, mormaerdoms and perhaps even feudal duchies, principalities etc.

Thus, Anglo-Saxon is not to be unfied by Norman conquest, and we also don't want Mercia and Wessex swallowing everything. Great Britain is to be inhabited by Picts, Gaels, Celtic Britons (Welsh, Cornish, Cumbrians), Scots, Anglo-Saxons and Norse/Norse-Gaels.

States that can be included:
- Kent
- Mercia
- Wessex
- Essex
- Sussex
- Middlesex
- Dumnonia/Cornwall
- East Anglia
- Middle Anglia
- Isle of Wight/Wihtwara
- Hwicce
- Lindsey
- Deira
- York/Jorvík
- Bernicia
- Lothian
- Northumbria
- Danelaw?
- some form of an overarching Anglo-Norse Empire (North Sea Empire)?
- Pictish tribal kingdoms
- Normandy
- Scotland/Alba
- Galloway
- Strathclyde
- Dál Riata
- Kingdom of the Isles
- Orkney
- Shetland
- Wales
- Gwynedd
- Powys
- Glywysing
- Dyfed
- Seisyllwg
- Ceredigion
- Gwent
- Brittany/Armorica

Anyone who's interested in contributing to this map project?
Here's a base map:

 

[Upvoteanthology]

Hmm, this is very interesting... I'd be happy to contribute a few Inkscape maps to the cause.

 

[Alex Richards]

I've actually started on something similar, though not done any work for a while back. There's a surprisingly large amount of suitable stuff in the OTL late medieval, and historically Worcestershire looks like it should be part of the HRE anyway.

 

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

Is it going to focus on a specific time or is there going to be a timeline? I could see a point of divergence around Roman Times, and then a different history to the point of the Hastings equivalent, that's going to integrate the Irish kingdoms and essentially butterfly away Norman conquest...

 

[Chicxulub]

It would be cool if it was a collaborative TL.

 

[Municipal Engines]

I had a similar idea, though mired in Arthurian legend and the world of Beowulf where the lines of these two kings mingle and over the centuries unite the disparate peoples of Ireland, Britain, Britanny and Scandinavia into a big ol' Northern Empire.

 

[Upvoteanthology]

Is it going to focus on a specific time or is there going to be a timeline? I could see a point of divergence around Roman Times, and then a different history to the point of the Hastings equivalent, that's going to integrate the Irish kingdoms and essentially butterfly away Norman conquest...

With a Roman PoD, it'd allow for some really cool migrations. Slavic and Jutish states in Britain, perhaps?

It would be cool if it was a collaborative TL.

I'd DEFINITELY contribute.

 

[Work_U_Dumb]

It would be cool if it was a collaborative TL.

I'd help with that, it would be very interesting.

 

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

With a Roman PoD, it'd allow for some really cool migrations. Slavic and Jutish states in Britain, perhaps?

I was thinking more to a reverse Saxon invasion, but going all the way to Old Prussia is interesting, if a little stretched.

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

Hmm, this is very interesting... I'd be happy to contribute a few Inkscape maps to the cause.

I've actually started on something similar, though not done any work for a while back. There's a surprisingly large amount of suitable stuff in the OTL late medieval, and historically Worcestershire looks like it should be part of the HRE anyway.

It'd be fantastic if you guys would like to contribute!

It would be cool if it was a collaborative TL.

Is it going to focus on a specific time or is there going to be a timeline? I could see a point of divergence around Roman Times, and then a different history to the point of the Hastings equivalent, that's going to integrate the Irish kingdoms and essentially butterfly away Norman conquest...

I'd DEFINITELY contribute.

I'd help with that, it would be very interesting.

Well, as for the timeline thing, yes, it would indeed be cool to start a collab TL! However, it shouldn't go too far back into time, since then we'd get a really divergent kind of Britain and that's not what I was aiming for.

I had a similar idea, though mired in Arthurian legend and the world of Beowulf where the lines of these two kings mingle and over the centuries unite the disparate peoples of Ireland, Britain, Britanny and Scandinavia into a big ol' Northern Empire.

Sounds very interesting!

With a Roman PoD, it'd allow for some really cool migrations. Slavic and Jutish states in Britain, perhaps?

I was thinking more to a reverse Saxon invasion, but going all the way to Old Prussia is interesting, if a little stretched.

Jutish states sounds like a cool idea! Slavic migration into Britain is a bit too divergent too my tastes, though, to be honest. Lord Hastur of Carcosa, what do you mean by reverse Saxon invasion...?

 

[Alex Richards]

I honestly don't know why you'd want or need to go back to alternate Saxon and Jutish migrations- between the County Palatinates, Welsh marcher lordships, the existing Prince Bishoprics, the liberties, Counties Corporate, exclaves and so forth there's plenty to go on post-1066 without even bringing in plausible stuff like Prince-Abbeys, autonomous counties and Dukedoms, doing funky stuff with hundreds...

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

I honestly don't know why you'd want or need to go back to alternate Saxon and Jutish migrations- between the County Palatinates, Welsh marcher lordships, the existing Prince Bishoprics, the liberties, Counties Corporate, exclaves and so forth there's plenty to go on post-1066 without even bringing in plausible stuff like Prince-Abbeys, autonomous counties and Dukedoms, doing funky stuff with hundreds...

True... I'd also try to avoid changing lots of migrations and putting the PoD way back into the early Early Middle Ages. However... for states like Dál Raita to still exist in the "HRE-esque" Britain we're creating, or for Kent to be really independent and not a vasal of Wessex, I'm guessing you'd still have to go back a few centuries before 1066, no? Oh, by the way, I'm totally not an expert on Anglo-Saxon England, so this applies to all my posts: correct me if I'm wrong and tell me stuff I need to know

Now, on another note, here's a sketch I made:

 

[Zek Sora]

I'd be happy to help -- sounds pretty cool

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

Oh, by the way, if anyone feels very generous, we need to change the coastlines a bit... (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...reen_top.svg/2000px-England_green_top.svg.png)

 

[Alex Richards]

True... I'd also try to avoid changing lots of migrations and putting the PoD way back into the early Early Middle Ages. However... for states like Dál Raita to still exist in the "HRE-esque" Britain we're creating, or for Kent to be really independent and not a vasal of Wessex, I'm guessing you'd still have to go back a few centuries before 1066, no? Oh, by the way, I'm totally not an expert on Anglo-Saxon England, so this applies to all my posts: correct me if I'm wrong and tell me stuff I need to know

Now, on another note, here's a sketch I made:

Well, the way I see it you can do one of two things:

-The eternal Bretwalda: Saxon England never centralises and the various smaller Kingdoms remain across the Isles- this has a couple of problems in that we honestly don't know a lot about this period and even without uniting England it's actually already quite centralised- you could have an independent Lindsey and a vassal Pecsaetan etc. but breaking down further struggles with most of the useful divisions being established later.

-Post Norman collapse in power- the entire scenario's already a bit mad, so let's just assume that the Angevin Empire manages to break French power completely, but then sees her own royal power eroded trying to hold down Scotland, Ireland and the French territories. The latter eventually break off entirely to remain under the now essentially powerless French crown early on, and the rot sets so that even as the Royals remain nominal rulers of the whole Isles, paradoxically this becomes weakened to the point that it is the nobles with the actual power. Less adventurous perhaps, but I prefer it myself as it means that it's slightly less silly to use later hundred boundaries or what have you. Even so, I'd probably slaughter huge amounts of butterflies, but still.

Oh and Kent was at one point a County Palatine after the Conquest. Throw in Ecclesiastical Principalities of Canterbury and Rochester, the Cinq Portes as a sort of Hansa analogue and the County Corporate of Canterbury and before you even get into such fanciful ideas as prince-Abbeys or using the Lathes of Kent rather than the county and it's already starting to get pretty broken up.

 

[QueenofScots]

Oh, by the way, if anyone feels very generous, we need to change the coastlines a bit... (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...reen_top.svg/2000px-England_green_top.svg.png)

I felt generous:

Also made the map a bit smaller.

 

[ElectricSheepNo54]

Great project! I would be happy to do research and create some lore, even though I can't help with the maps.

and historically Worcestershire looks like it should be part of the HRE anyway.

What do you mean?

 

[Alex Richards]

Great project! I would be happy to do research and create some lore, even though I can't help with the maps.



What do you mean?

Have you seen how many exclaves the place had?

 

[ElectricSheepNo54]

Have you seen how many exclaves the place had?

Oh.

 

[QueenofScots]

Note: This map is probably too late in the TL to be part of the main map.

My contribution is Alba. Alba (Archaic name for GB in OTL) was the colloquial name for the land held by the His Albionic Majesty (HAM, though abbreviation is not commonly used due to the obvious double meaning). The Emperor had de jure rule over all of the island in the middle ages and early modern era. Though Alba was unified early on, after two bumbling successors, the land is ruled de facto by the smaller title holders, and is shown as such on both modern and contemporary maps. The title of HAM went without use for about 70 years, between the annulment of the throne in the 18th century, and British unification in the 19th century.

Gold is land held directly by the Emperor.