Malaya What If

[Cryhavoc101]

The Buffalo's the RAF had from what I remember had literally second hand engines and instead of 1200hp they had like 1,000hp. In hot and humid conditions this is a massive decrease in performance. Even with the loss of power issue the tactics used left the RAF in considerable danger due to it's own stupidity.

Up to date intelligence of the like aircraft to be seen had been gained by the Fying Tigers and both the RAF and USAAF got the information and ignored it. The Flying tigers said "DO NOT DOGFIGHT" and got ignored.

Racisim exists and is not based on any realistic metric of assesing people's ability to function. The Trope that the Japanese pilots flew monkey copied old aircraft and the pilots needed glasses to see. This was both ignorant in the extreme but colored the full conduct of numerous soldiers, sailors and airmen of just about every rank. The stupidity cost lives and made the Japanese invasion's much easier. NEVER underestimate an opponent.

Back in the early years of Japan's industrial revolution or Meiji restoration the facts supported copying of foriegn materials. The factories got copied and the products copied and this occurred until they caught up with the foriegn powers regarding technology. The Kongo class is a perfect example. Followingthe Kongo class the Japanese proceeded to build world class and world leading Battleships. THey learnt then invented. They did this with everything imaginable, And it is the smart way to do it.

Even through the 1930's aircraft designers got paid to work in Japan and that lead to some interesting snippets like the person who assisted the Zero project was formerly a Heinkel employee and ended up working at CAC during ww2. The Boomerang got his input as we;. The gentleman in question being Fred David an Austrian Jew.

I didn't think that the Flying Tigers started combat ops until late Dec 1941?

So not sure they were in a position to tell anything to anyone

Also while there was a number of KI43 Oscars the majority of the fighters in the IJA 'fighter estate' was the KI27 Nate fighters during the period of the Malaya and Burma campaigns

Even the porcine F2F was a match for the Nate but the problem was not much getting shot down by very manoeuvrable fighters but suffering heavy and early losses on the ground.

The AVG into 1942 did in the 5 odd months it was fighting in Burma and China amass a positive kill ratio but it did enjoy a force of 100 experienced (as in flying hours) and trained pilots

If those losses on the ground can be reduced or mitigated then the Japanese are in trouble because even with the advantages they enjoyed the Japanese forces fighting in Malaya could not replace their aircraft losses (to all causes) during the campaign and with a greater number of RA*F fighter units in country and an experienced commander ITTL they are going to suffer worse losses.

But I agree certainly the racism played a part across the spectrum and took arguably into 1943 in some cases to have it beaten out of them

But it did work both ways - the Japanese commanders in several theatres in late 42 and into 1943 namely Guadalcanal and PNG seriously underestimated the better USMC and Aussie soldiers and continued to conduct shoestring operations against known superior forces (and even then often underestimating the size of the allied forces) relying on the perceived greater endurance of the Japanese soldier to carry the day.

 

[JWilly48519]

(...) the Japanese commanders in several theatres in late 42 and into 1943 (...) seriously underestimated the better USMC and Aussie soldiers and continued to conduct shoestring operations against known superior forces (...) relying on the perceived greater endurance of the Japanese soldier to carry the day.

And "bushido spirit".

 

[Sekhmet_D]

But it did work both ways - the Japanese commanders in several theatres in late 42 and into 1943 namely Guadalcanal and PNG seriously underestimated the better USMC and Aussie soldiers and continued to conduct shoestring operations against known superior forces (and even then often underestimating the size of the allied forces) relying on the perceived greater endurance of the Japanese soldier to carry the day.

Even during OTL's Malaya and Singapore fighting, the Aussies gave the Japanese the hardest time, especially during the Gemas ambush and the Sarimbun Beach landing. By the end of the war, the Aussies were the only Allied troops that the Japanese openly admitted they admired.

 

[alspug]

Even during OTL's Malaya and Singapore fighting, the Aussies gave the Japanese the hardest time, especially during the Gemas ambush and the Sarimbun Beach landing. By the end of the war, the Aussies were the only Allied troops that the Japanese openly admitted they admired.

Part of that was a frontier spirit that was common the remainder was the training that included jungle training.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

How were they "carrier-operationally trained" without a carrier? I'm wondering how a pilot might be considered so qualified if they've never actually taken off or landed on a carrier in gusty weather and rough seas...?

and

They trained up on Hermes I think before she went for refit. ref post #1276

Hi JWilly48519 and Admiral Jellicoe, AJ is quite right, (hey, AJ, that has a nice ring to it, don't you think Jelly, oh, so does that, not sure which I prefer now?) they have had some carrier landing training, see https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/malaya-what-if.521982/post-23873624. The main intention of establishing this FAA Wing was to create a operationally trained reserve for the Med Fleet to call on, but it's not up to speed yet. Pilots have had training on take off and landing on a carrier, HMS Hermes, while all their other training has been from airfields. There has been some formation flying done to help train these pilots but the focus is on developing the aircrew not the squadron. The plan is by next year (1942) these squadrons will be providing replacements for the Med Fleet. HMS Hermes, once she completes her refit, will resume her role as a training carrier in the Indian Ocean, as well as assisting in locating German raiders. At least that was the idea, but very quickly these plans will go up in smoke.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

I wonder how long the easier to remove items last when the lack of climb rate starts to tell. OTL they stripped guns, ammo load etc to give their clapped out engines a chance in an environment with worse early warning.

and

They should have done what the Finns did. Soup the engines up.

as well as

The Buffalo's the RAF had from what I remember had literally second hand engines and instead of 1200hp they had like 1,000hp. In hot and humid conditions this is a massive decrease in performance. Even with the loss of power issue the tactics used left the RAF in considerable danger due to it's own stupidity.

Hi Errolwi, Sekhmet_D and alspug, the FAA are aware of the deficiencies of the Buffalo as a Naval fighter, but these are a temporary solution to a lack of fighters, enabling them to field a training fighter squadron. They certainly won't be sending the Buffalo's to the Med, and in time as more fighters become available, the squadron will convert to Fulmer or Martlet, removing the need for these pilots to undergo a aircraft conversion course. There's only twenty Buffalo's, I'd expect by June 1942 they'd be down to maybe half a dozen with carrier landing accidents and such like.

 

[ShortsBelfast]

They should have done what the Finns did. Soup the engines up.

The major difference is that the Finns had Finnish-American engineers and pilots checking out the quality of the aircraft that Brewster was sending them whereas the RAF relied on the integrity of the manufacturer. Which, with hindsight, was a huge error of judgement.

 

[Ramp-Rat]

The difference between the rich Anglo Americans and the rest in regards to single seat fighters during WWII.

There can be little doubt that late 1941 early 1942, was in many ways a poor time for the Anglo Americans and single seat fighters, for a number of reasons. The British who had stayed the war with a biplane fighter still in active service, the Gloster Gladiator, note that by the end of the war Glosters were producing one of the most advanced fighters in the world, the Meteor. Although they had one of the best fighters in the world, a combination of politics and overstretch meant that they were incredibly reluctant to deploy Supermarine Spitfires outside the UK, and definitely not to a colonial backwater like Singapore. However unlike the Germans who only managed to produce three successful single seat fighters during the war, ME/BF 109, FW190, and ME262, the British produced in excess of seven. While the Americans had a number of basic and second class fighters in 1941, they would by the end of 1943, have five of the best single seat fighters of the war, either in production or close to coming into service. It was an Anglo American collaboration that produced one of the best single seat piston engine fighters of all time, the North American P51 Mustang, American fuselage and American produced British engine, Rolls Royce/Packard Merlin. And that is the principle advantage of fighting a Rich Mans war, once the Anglo Americans got their collective acts together, they were able to produce a never ending stream of first class world beating single seat fighters. So that by 1945, Britain had the latest version of the Spitfire, the Hawker Typhoon and Tempest, Fairey Firefly and its first jet fighter the Gloster Meteor. While the Americans had the Republic Thunderbolt, Lockheed Lightning,North American Mustang, Vought Corsair, and Grumman Wildcat. And both the British and Americans had even better piston engined fighters about to enter production, plus a number of jet engined fighters about to come off the drawing board.

RR.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

The British who had stayed the war with a biplane fighter still in active service, the Gloster Gladiator...

You know something? I am quite surprised that IOTL, no attempt was made to deploy Gladiators to the Far East. Gladiator versus Ki-27 would have been an interesting matchup.

 

[jlckansas]

You know something? I am quite surprised that IOTL, no attempt was made to deploy Gladiators to the Far East. Gladiator versus Ki-27 would have been an interesting matchup.

Ki-27 vs Grumman F3F would be interesting also.

 

[Belisarius II]

I didn't think that the Flying Tigers started combat ops until late Dec 1941?

So not sure they were in a position to tell anything to anyone

Also while there was a number of KI43 Oscars the majority of the fighters in the IJA 'fighter estate' was the KI27 Nate fighters during the period of the Malaya and Burma campaigns

Even the porcine F2F was a match for the Nate but the problem was not much getting shot down by very manoeuvrable fighters but suffering heavy and early losses on the ground.

The AVG into 1942 did in the 5 odd months it was fighting in Burma and China amass a positive kill ratio but it did enjoy a force of 100 experienced (as in flying hours) and trained pilots

If those losses on the ground can be reduced or mitigated then the Japanese are in trouble because even with the advantages they enjoyed the Japanese forces fighting in Malaya could not replace their aircraft losses (to all causes) during the campaign and with a greater number of RA*F fighter units in country and an experienced commander ITTL they are going to suffer worse losses.

But I agree certainly the racism played a part across the spectrum and took arguably into 1943 in some cases to have it beaten out of them

But it did work both ways - the Japanese commanders in several theatres in late 42 and into 1943 namely Guadalcanal and PNG seriously underestimated the better USMC and Aussie soldiers and continued to conduct shoestring operations against known superior forces (and even then often underestimating the size of the allied forces) relying on the perceived greater endurance of the Japanese soldier to carry the day.

As the Malaya Campaign progressed more Ki-43 Oscar's were being feed into the fight as production ramped up. Their fighter loses weren't very high. Some numbers of IJN Zero's were also in theater. The Japanese had more bombers than fighters and started the campaign with over a 2/1 numerical advantage, and things only got worse. The idea of the RAF reversing the tide is highly unlikely, there's just too much stacked against them.

 

[Normal for Norfolk]

You know something? I am quite surprised that IOTL, no attempt was made to deploy Gladiators to the Far East. Gladiator versus Ki-27 would have been an interesting matchup.

Some were offered by Middle East Command, basically any spare airframes they had left. A little over 20 in total that were being used as things like base commanders run arounds. I suspect they were regarded as too worn out & obsolete to not be worth the trouble of transporting them & then sorting out the logistics of keeping them running.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

The Japanese had more bombers than fighters and started the campaign with over a 2/1 numerical advantage, and things only got worse. The idea of the RAF reversing the tide is highly unlikely, there's just too much stacked against them.

The Japanese deploying more bombers than fighters was a consistent trend on practically every mission they flew. In the face of a determined and well prepared interception, a low escort to bomber ratio would have been a recipe for disaster.

 

[Butchpfd]

Ki-27 vs Grumman F3F would be interesting also.

I have always assumed that if in an ATL, 1940- 41 the USN had stationed combat/ carrier capable aircraft to the Philippines, it would be the USNR or UAMCR Squadrons with mainly F3F-3s, and SBC-3s

 

[Belisarius II]

The Japanese deploying more bombers than fighters was a consistent trend on practically every mission they flew. In the face of a determined and well prepared interception, a low escort to bomber ratio would have been a recipe for disaster.

Yet that never really happened. Japanese heavy bombers were fast, and generally operating at a high altitude that defending fighters found under the circumstances were hard to reach. The light bombers gave little warning and were fast. There is no way to refight the Battle of Britain in Malaya. Radar won't be tracking mass bomber formations forming up before heading in and the RAF doesn't have fast climbing fighters like the Hurricane & Spitfire to climb above them. All they'd see are group sized raids coming mostly straight in. They don't have that kind of lead time.

This also assumes the Japanese are flying in from the sea with nothing in the background. If they come in from the north at lower levels over land with the hills and mountains to the west behind them then radar has to deal with land clutter. Radar isn't the all-seeing eye that legend has it. Radar had serious limitations in WWII. No one really had look down shoot down radar till the 1970's.

These are second rate fighters operating under serious handicaps. Unlike the Bf-109E's in the BoB the Japanese fighters aren't suffering from such limited range. They can stay over enemy territory long enough to take the bombers in and out. What the Germans would have done to have had drop tanks on their fighters. One of the greatest oversights of WWII.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

Yet that never really happened.

Ah but well, they never really faced a determined or well prepared interception anywhere over British territory in 1941 and early 1942, did they. The closest it ever came to that was Burma and Ceylon.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Yet that never really happened. Japanese heavy bombers were fast, and generally operating at a high altitude that defending fighters found under the circumstances were hard to reach. The light bombers gave little warning and were fast. There is no way to refight the Battle of Britain in Malaya. Radar won't be tracking mass bomber formations forming up before heading in and the RAF doesn't have fast climbing fighters like the Hurricane & Spitfire to climb above them. All they'd see are group sized raids coming mostly straight in. They don't have that kind of lead time.

This also assumes the Japanese are flying in from the sea with nothing in the background. If they come in from the north at lower levels over land with the hills and mountains to the west behind them then radar has to deal with land clutter. Radar isn't the all-seeing eye that legend has it. Radar had serious limitations in WWII. No one really had look down shoot down radar till the 1970's.

These are second rate fighters operating under serious handicaps. Unlike the Bf-109E's in the BoB the Japanese fighters aren't suffering from such limited range. They can stay over enemy territory long enough to take the bombers in and out. What the Germans would have done to have had drop tanks on their fighters. One of the greatest oversights of WWII.

The attacks on Rangoon suffered heavy losses vs a better organised RAF and AVG wing.

The Chinese around Kunming had a ground spotting system that gave ample warning of inbound Japanese aircraft and the AVGs first combat mission in WW2 on 20th Dec 1941 was intercepting a 10 strong IJA bomber attack destroying at least 4 aircraft and forcing the rest to abort with reports at the time claiming that only 1 aircraft returned

A combination of Radar and better organised ground spotters might not result in aircraft intercepting raids (11 minutes for a Hurricane Squadron to go from pilots resting with cold engine to ETO Intercept altitude) in a BoB fashion but it might certainly prevent lots of aircraft being caught on the ground which is what ultimately doomed the RAF forces in Malaya as they took heavy ground losses during airfield attacks during the opening days of the campaign.

In actual air combat the RAF vs IJA ratio is quite even and that is with a massive advantage in numbers OTL for the Japanese

As the Malaya Campaign progressed more Ki-43 Oscar's were being feed into the fight as production ramped up. Their fighter loses weren't very high. Some numbers of IJN Zero's were also in theater. The Japanese had more bombers than fighters and started the campaign with over a 2/1 numerical advantage, and things only got worse. The idea of the RAF reversing the tide is highly unlikely, there's just too much stacked against them.

There was a single Squadron of A6ms in FIC with 25 airframes (which is the standard 16 airframes plus a reserve) - I understand their mission was to cover the landing forces and subsequent convoys and other naval operations.

The production of the KI 43 was 157 by end of year 1941 and 72 of those were built in Nov (29) and Dec (43) - so in Dec 1941 they were relatively rare.

OTL the RAF forces in Malaya were pretty much defeated in the first days by being caught on the ground and destroyed in large numbers

Again an improved RAF alone is almost certainly not enough but in combination with other factors in this TL - it might be enough!

 

[Sekhmet_D]

The attacks on Rangoon suffered heavy losses vs a better organised RAF and AVG wing.

The 23 December 1941 raid on Rangoon was a pretty decent showing from the RAF and AVG.

12 P-40s and 15 Buffaloes went up against 45 Ki-21s and 30 Ki-27s; scramble was only mounted when the enemy were almost right over the city, but they managed to make 20,000 feet before diving on the Japanese.

4 P-40s (and no Buffaloes, amazingly) were lost in exchange for 7 Ki-21s.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

Some numbers of IJN Zero's were also in theater.

There was a single Squadron of A6ms in FIC with 25 airframes (which is the standard 16 airframes plus a reserve) - I understand their mission was to cover the landing forces and subsequent convoys and other naval operations.

This was the Yamada Unit. Composite unit; half its members were picked from 3rd Ku (Tokaji squadron) and half from Tainan Ku (Inano squadron). They were originally slated to cover convoys and landing zones, yes, but eventually ended up performing much more in the way of offensive operations, including fighter sweeps and bomber escort. It was fortunate that they were such a small unit, that the Allies' main opposition over Malaya and Singapore was JAAF instead of them, because they dished out very stinging defeats during almost every engagement where they participated.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Yet that never really happened. Japanese heavy bombers were fast, and generally operating at a high altitude that defending fighters found under the circumstances were hard to reach.

Hi Belisarius, the little I have on actual operations, mostly from 'Bloody Shambles' have Japanese bombers flying in the 10,000, - 15,000 ft range, although I think I can find at least one raid at about 18,000 ft. Depends on your perspective as to whether that is high or not, but its certainly at a height that can be intercepted, if given time.

There is no way to refight the Battle of Britain in Malaya. Radar won't be tracking mass bomber formations forming up before heading in and the RAF doesn't have fast climbing fighters like the Hurricane & Spitfire to climb above them. All they'd see are group sized raids coming mostly straight in. They don't have that kind of lead time.

I agree that they wouldn't be seeing raids of 100+, but raids of 18-27 heavy bomber aircraft in quite a tight formation would be encountered. And for those unaware, heavy bombers in Japanese parlance are twin engined Ki-21 Sally's, akin to the RAF 'Wellington' medium bomber, and not the four engined 'heavies' which came later.

A problem the RAF had was a lot of Chutai size units of Ki-43 fighters undertook strafing raids, these offered no real chance of a realistic warning.

This also assumes the Japanese are flying in from the sea with nothing in the background. If they come in from the north at lower levels over land with the hills and mountains to the west behind them then radar has to deal with land clutter.

Initially for the first few days Japanese bombers did have to cross the Gulf of Thailand in a southwesterly direction for the north western Malayan airfields, but there was no radar system installed up there to detect them. The short range Ki 27 fighters were quickly installed on the Singora and Pattani airfields, and able to partake by day three.

You also mentioned the mountains, only in the context of providing background radar clutter, but there is a considerable mountain range that runs down the backbone of Malaya (that's the western peninsular Malaysia to all you kids) called the Titwangsa Mountains, with heights of between 7,000 to 5,000 ft shielding Penang, down to Kuala Lumper, and lower heights as it runs southwards. Pre-war no one flew over these, and indeed the aerial combat routes of the Japanese tended to be from the Singora area westwards towards Alor Star and the southerly. Flying over the mountains you encountered more air turbulence, heavy cloud cover and rain, so while both the RAF and the Japanese were capable of crossing them, operationally, I don't think they did.

Papua New Guinea also has the Owen Stanley mountain range running east-west, the Kokoda trail ran across it, and is much higher at 10,000 ft plus. Does anyone have any info on problems the RAAF or Japanese air forces had on flying over this range.