With, according to Lawrence in Seven Pillars, an emphasis on wrecking curved rails whenever possible since they're likely to be harder to replace than straight ones.
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Beavers are notoriously inflexible negotiators. They demand unrealistic payment to move their dam. You might as well sign the ranch over to them! 😉
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Rations and medicine of the British forces ITTL.
While there is no question that as long as the British retain control of Singapore, they can import all the food that the military and civilian population require. However it’s not that simple, as unlike the American and Philippines forces, who could essentially live off each other’s diet, the British have significant problems with some of their Indian troops. It’s no good trying to feed Hindu troops bully beef or Muslim troops spam, while the various white troops can and did live off each other’s rations, the Indian and local troops do have religious and cultural requirements. Malay Chinese are not going to be happy with the same diet as Malaysians who are majority Muslim and don’t eat pork, where as pork is a basic component of the Chinese diet. While the British do have decades of experience in supplying the needs for a multitude of forces with very different dietary needs, should the administration collapse for any reason, things could get very tricky very quickly. So provided the British administration doesn’t suffer a catastrophic collapse, the measures put in place already should ensure that both the civilian and military populations are supplied with adequate food, that is generally compatible with their religious/cultural values. Trying to get the troops to eat all that they need to maintain their health and fitness in the conditions prevalent in Malaya, is however a challenge, as the closer you get to the front line the harder it becomes. All bases and large second line units, will have good food and a large number of local staff to undertake the majority of tasks, such as food preparation, service and cleaning. In a lot of cases virtually the whole operation will be provided by a local contractor, with just oversight by an officer nominated by a catering committee. It’s once you get to the front line units that the problems arise, and funny enough the best way to deal with them is to constantly rotate units into rest and reserve, where their own contractors can take over the responsibility of providing their food. And yes a lot of British units took their local staff with them on campaign, and had a lot of experience doing so, the British had been doing this for hundreds of years and very much had the system in place.
When it comes to dealing with disease and medical matters, it comes down to a combination of preparation and the implementation of some very strict rules and practices. Starting with preparation, all troops should have had the basic available at the time vaccinations, such as smallpox, diphtheria, and tetanus, which mean that that’s three diseases that medicos don’t have to worry about. Implementation of a strict anti malaria policy is vital, with officers having the responsibility of overseeing the taking of anti malarial drugs, along with all anti mosquito regulations being implemented. And being sanctioned if the rate of malaria rises above a certain level within their command, or the failure of the basic anti mosquito prevention regulations being observed. The prevention of malaria prior to the development of effective anti mosquito insecticides, such as DDT, required intensive discipline, and strict supervision, plus a different approach to treating sufferers of malaria. The standard practice pre war and during the early stages of the war, was to evacuate malaria patients to a fixed base fever hospital, before returning them to their home unit. This took time and resources, and always risked the patient being infected again during the transfer process. Plus it meant that if a trooper fancied some time out of the line in a nice comfortable environment, easy catch malaria. Bill Slim who himself caught malaria by falling to observe anti malaria regulations as he admitted in his book, Defeat into Victory. Instituted a major change in the treatment of malaria patients, who instead of being evacuated to a base fever hospital, were instead moved to a divisional malaria treatment facility, set up just behind the front, and treated their before being returned to their unit. So what had been a major strain on the logistics system, and could take weeks, became a quick process and required minimal logistical input. It’s going to take time and some out of the box thinking to get to the level of competency that Burma Corps achieved in dealing with disease, it did by 1944, but right from the start the British system will be far superior to the Japanese. And the retention of the production facilities for Quinine in the DEI, will ensure that Quinine remains available to the allied forces throughout the conflict, which wasn’t the case IOTL. There can be no doubt that the British medical system will other than as a result of a complete collapse be vastly superior to the Japanese, and able to provide at all levels adequate medical services to all but a very few, such as special forces operating behind enemy lines.
RR.
While there is no question that as long as the British retain control of Singapore, they can import all the food that the military and civilian population require. However it’s not that simple, as unlike the American and Philippines forces, who could essentially live off each other’s diet, the British have significant problems with some of their Indian troops. It’s no good trying to feed Hindu troops bully beef or Muslim troops spam, while the various white troops can and did live off each other’s rations, the Indian and local troops do have religious and cultural requirements. Malay Chinese are not going to be happy with the same diet as Malaysians who are majority Muslim and don’t eat pork, where as pork is a basic component of the Chinese diet. While the British do have decades of experience in supplying the needs for a multitude of forces with very different dietary needs, should the administration collapse for any reason, things could get very tricky very quickly. So provided the British administration doesn’t suffer a catastrophic collapse, the measures put in place already should ensure that both the civilian and military populations are supplied with adequate food, that is generally compatible with their religious/cultural values. Trying to get the troops to eat all that they need to maintain their health and fitness in the conditions prevalent in Malaya, is however a challenge, as the closer you get to the front line the harder it becomes. All bases and large second line units, will have good food and a large number of local staff to undertake the majority of tasks, such as food preparation, service and cleaning. In a lot of cases virtually the whole operation will be provided by a local contractor, with just oversight by an officer nominated by a catering committee. It’s once you get to the front line units that the problems arise, and funny enough the best way to deal with them is to constantly rotate units into rest and reserve, where their own contractors can take over the responsibility of providing their food. And yes a lot of British units took their local staff with them on campaign, and had a lot of experience doing so, the British had been doing this for hundreds of years and very much had the system in place.
When it comes to dealing with disease and medical matters, it comes down to a combination of preparation and the implementation of some very strict rules and practices. Starting with preparation, all troops should have had the basic available at the time vaccinations, such as smallpox, diphtheria, and tetanus, which mean that that’s three diseases that medicos don’t have to worry about. Implementation of a strict anti malaria policy is vital, with officers having the responsibility of overseeing the taking of anti malarial drugs, along with all anti mosquito regulations being implemented. And being sanctioned if the rate of malaria rises above a certain level within their command, or the failure of the basic anti mosquito prevention regulations being observed. The prevention of malaria prior to the development of effective anti mosquito insecticides, such as DDT, required intensive discipline, and strict supervision, plus a different approach to treating sufferers of malaria. The standard practice pre war and during the early stages of the war, was to evacuate malaria patients to a fixed base fever hospital, before returning them to their home unit. This took time and resources, and always risked the patient being infected again during the transfer process. Plus it meant that if a trooper fancied some time out of the line in a nice comfortable environment, easy catch malaria. Bill Slim who himself caught malaria by falling to observe anti malaria regulations as he admitted in his book, Defeat into Victory. Instituted a major change in the treatment of malaria patients, who instead of being evacuated to a base fever hospital, were instead moved to a divisional malaria treatment facility, set up just behind the front, and treated their before being returned to their unit. So what had been a major strain on the logistics system, and could take weeks, became a quick process and required minimal logistical input. It’s going to take time and some out of the box thinking to get to the level of competency that Burma Corps achieved in dealing with disease, it did by 1944, but right from the start the British system will be far superior to the Japanese. And the retention of the production facilities for Quinine in the DEI, will ensure that Quinine remains available to the allied forces throughout the conflict, which wasn’t the case IOTL. There can be no doubt that the British medical system will other than as a result of a complete collapse be vastly superior to the Japanese, and able to provide at all levels adequate medical services to all but a very few, such as special forces operating behind enemy lines.
RR.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Kent, Personally, I'm quite comfortable with whats posted, I enjoy some of the more off topic posts, and am want to wander a bit myself, but I can understand if your following the TimeLine, and not just the bookmarked posts, it can be a distraction from a lot of good contributions in support of my posts.
Hi Driftless, yes that's just about how I see it, so long as we don't fall foul of the Bear!
Some add on thoughts to these
1. Use the RR ties themselves, most ties back them were treated with creosote to protect them and creosote burns hot and if there are any cracks in the ties they can get internal hot spots going to burn from the inside out also.
2. Rails that you don't use for bending just roll them off the right of way or dump them in creeks and rivers off of the bridges.
3. dull red is good, hotter the better. If you can have some people fanning them to increase the heat even better.
4. Even if you don't get every one of them bent the rail will loose it's temper and annealing to make them wear more and potentially develop cracks and break under use.
5. Don't blow just the bridge itself, destroy the end abutments and they cannot put another bridge or fix whats left until the abutments are fixed.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Which reminds me, with all this talk of Elk and Moose, surely I have to post
What war, prior to 1860, included destruction of railroads? There weren't many railroads, and even fewer in disputed territory where one side might want to wreck them.
IIRC, the wreckers pried up the rails first, then used the ties ("sleepers", for the Brits) for the bonfire.
"Sherman's neckties"!
I forgot to add in the first post that the RN 8-inch also had (hoped for) a higher rate of fire, if only for short periods, in further support of the theory of barrage fire into large formations of aricraft. It was clearly hoped to do more than raise shell splashes in front of low-flying torpedo planes.
From Navweaps:
Rate Of Fire 3 - 6 rounds per minute
^The original Naval Staff requirement for these weapons was 12 rounds per minute, an impossibly high figure for the time. The requirement was ultimately reduced to six rounds per minute. However, "British Cruisers of World War Two" states that this rate was never reached during wartime service and that the maximum sustained ROF in action was actually 3 to 4 rounds per minute. During trials, HMS Kent did achieve a ROF of 5 rounds per minute for a brief time.
Do we have him to thank for “Malaria Monday“ and the “two-step”? Good drills, beats malaria.
Nets don’t just control malaria. They help you get a little better rest when you can put them up. Infinitely better sleeping when you don’t have random flying bugs crawling up your nose or biting your lips and in your ear (the lips hurt like heck, btw). If you do your fieldcraft well enough, you can even set them up in a tactical-esqe fashion- knee high under a tarp or strung over a one man sleeping hole and still be able to get out of it pretty quickly; heck with a little cam cream and a weeks worth of dirt and wear they even blend decently (really hard to see out of, though). Some guys even tied on scrim to make a field expedient personal camo net if there weren’t enough diamonds to scrounge. I’d imagine they’d be unit controlled items in Malaya, so just the intended use probably.
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Yep- multicultural rations are going to be a lot harder, but having the ability to resupply at least make meeting the differing requirements a possibility. I remember George MacDonald Fraser touching on this in a Quartered Safe Out Here when he discusses the Gurkha affinity for tinned fish, and the Jat troops preparing and cooking chappati in a night defensive position while the British troops sit down to tinned compo rations.
As you’ve said, this was a well developed and well practiced victualing system. Is there enough base commonality that base foods can be transported in bulk, general cargo while the specific items move separately into theater (in my mind there’s a ship full of tinned fish or some other specific foodstuff thats higher value than ammo or other more conventional supplies)? Then the ration gets assembled in theater in standard breaks (25/50 is normal) for kitchen use or as individual/squad combat rations. With the proximity of India, is there capacity to source the specialized individual items there for the Indian troops?
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Muddyleathers and others, yes Disease is going to become a factor the longer the fight goes on. Obviously we have Malaria present, which I think I know enough about, but battle wounds in that heat, along with the other numerous diseases, I feel less informed.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
On the question of getting supplies from India, Bill Slim and others all started that this was difficult, as India didn’t have a developed internal packaged food system at the time. Other than supplies of dried spices, tea and some dried herbs, maybe some specialty flour, very little foodstuffs will come from India. The overwhelming majority of tinned foods will come from Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada and the UK, with rice coming from Burma. India at the time was a major importer of food, especially rice, were as the Dominions were all major exporters of foodstuffs, not only chilled and frozen, but also processed.
RR.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi JWilly48519, you've seen the classic John Ford file, "Horse Soldiers" too
Start from 35 seconds in
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
OK, well RL is quite stressful for me at the moment, delaying my posting, so thank you everyone on your contributions, keep the railways, disease and ration discussions going, all are most helpful, but I've got to move things along, this war isn't going to fight itself!
MWI 41120114 Second Degree Readiness
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Monday 01 December;
Lord Gort sat at his desk, having just got back from the War Council. His office door was wedged open as a procession of aides passed in and out, with composed signal notes to be signed, authorising orders to various commands. In the signal office, the teleprinter was chatting, and wireless operators in their individual little cubicles, tapped out coded messages to Hong Kong and Borneo, everyone to move onto second degree readiness, mobilisation of volunteer forces, and to the UK, India and Australia, updating on events.
And so, a chain reaction began, in Fort Canning, Percival was busy, issuing orders to III Indian Corps, to the Australians, to the Singapore garrison, dealing with issues over moving to 24 hours’ notice, confirming all leave was cancelled, and strategic points to be defended. To the RAOC and RASC to be ready for large movements of troops, and consequential high demand on their services. The redeploying of the 5th Indian HAA Regt to Northern Malaya, to defend airfields and strategic points, the 6th to Taiping, to be held in readiness of Matador possibly being called. Both were fully mobile, their guns towed on 4-wheel trailer platforms, but neither regiment was fully trained, however needs must, they’d been declared operational, and they’d have to finish their training “on the job”. Going with them was the two batteries of the 3 LAA Regt HKSRA, with their 40mm Bofors.
In Kuala Lumpur, Lt Gen Alfred Godwin-Austen was giving orders to the Indian 11th Division to be prepared to more forward into the space that may be created by vacating Australian units. And to the 9th Indian Division in Kelantan and Kuantan, to prepare defences with pre-dispositioned stores and ammunition. While parts of the 12th Indian Brigade were being ordered to move closer to the border near Betong.
In Alor Star, Maj Gen Sydney Rowell, began issuing orders, bringing units of the 8th Australian Division closer to the border, or loading vehicles and equipment onto rail stock waiting in rail sidings, all in preparation of a green light for Operation Matador. More secretively some small SOE teams began filtering into Thailand, while others already there, began readying themselves.
On Singapore Island, as in other major towns in the British Far East, the military were suddenly more prominent, sentries appearing at certain buildings, some restrictions on road traffic into certain zones. Civil defence measures were beginning to show, buildings were being given sandbag walls for extra protection, The Governor announcing a practice air raid warning, with a blackout tomorrow at 9pm, wardens given their areas to patrol. Street and shop lights being taped, hooded or simply disconnected. Glass windows taped up, with business-as-usual signs appearing. Suddenly Singapore began to display signs that a war was on.
In Hong Kong, Maj Gen Christopher Maltby was issuing orders, moving stores and equipment onto the island, mobilising the volunteers, and overseeing the evacuation of the last remaining non-garrison military personnel along with some European civilians. The Naval dockyard began readying all ships, future maintenance overhauls delayed. Some merchant ships would be leaving Hong Kong later today, and most of the rest in the next few days, bound for safer southern waters
In Borneo, the volunteer forces were being mobilised, and the denial program of destruction was being prepared, but not yet implemented, while HMS Lipis, an auxiliary patrol vessel, was sailing from Singapore tonight, with extra demolition explosives, once they had been delivered, she would wait, ready to conduct the evacuation of those deemed essential or wanting to leave.
Back in Singapore, Park was issuing his orders, getting his air groups to be ready for a maximum effort, with all possible aircraft being brought up to operational readiness, airfields being prepared, last minute efforts by construction workers to focus on completing nearly finished work, at the cost of delaying other works with long term completions. RAAF 450 Sqn was moved up to Butterworth, crammed in with the two Blenheim Sqns, having been trained with long range fuel tanks, she would be the escort for any long-range raids. RNZAF 486 Sqn had moved to Kuantan, to offer air cover to any Royal Navy sortie that might happen. Park considered these his best two squadrons, which helped underline the importance he attached to the possible operations they might support.
Gort had also agreed with Phillips, shortly before leaving the Council, on another meeting, with their aides, tomorrow afternoon to discuss more fully what co-operation the Navy could offer Gort. Commanders in the Far East took a deep breath, was this it, was war coming, or just another false alarm?
Lord Gort sat at his desk, having just got back from the War Council. His office door was wedged open as a procession of aides passed in and out, with composed signal notes to be signed, authorising orders to various commands. In the signal office, the teleprinter was chatting, and wireless operators in their individual little cubicles, tapped out coded messages to Hong Kong and Borneo, everyone to move onto second degree readiness, mobilisation of volunteer forces, and to the UK, India and Australia, updating on events.
And so, a chain reaction began, in Fort Canning, Percival was busy, issuing orders to III Indian Corps, to the Australians, to the Singapore garrison, dealing with issues over moving to 24 hours’ notice, confirming all leave was cancelled, and strategic points to be defended. To the RAOC and RASC to be ready for large movements of troops, and consequential high demand on their services. The redeploying of the 5th Indian HAA Regt to Northern Malaya, to defend airfields and strategic points, the 6th to Taiping, to be held in readiness of Matador possibly being called. Both were fully mobile, their guns towed on 4-wheel trailer platforms, but neither regiment was fully trained, however needs must, they’d been declared operational, and they’d have to finish their training “on the job”. Going with them was the two batteries of the 3 LAA Regt HKSRA, with their 40mm Bofors.
In Kuala Lumpur, Lt Gen Alfred Godwin-Austen was giving orders to the Indian 11th Division to be prepared to more forward into the space that may be created by vacating Australian units. And to the 9th Indian Division in Kelantan and Kuantan, to prepare defences with pre-dispositioned stores and ammunition. While parts of the 12th Indian Brigade were being ordered to move closer to the border near Betong.
In Alor Star, Maj Gen Sydney Rowell, began issuing orders, bringing units of the 8th Australian Division closer to the border, or loading vehicles and equipment onto rail stock waiting in rail sidings, all in preparation of a green light for Operation Matador. More secretively some small SOE teams began filtering into Thailand, while others already there, began readying themselves.
On Singapore Island, as in other major towns in the British Far East, the military were suddenly more prominent, sentries appearing at certain buildings, some restrictions on road traffic into certain zones. Civil defence measures were beginning to show, buildings were being given sandbag walls for extra protection, The Governor announcing a practice air raid warning, with a blackout tomorrow at 9pm, wardens given their areas to patrol. Street and shop lights being taped, hooded or simply disconnected. Glass windows taped up, with business-as-usual signs appearing. Suddenly Singapore began to display signs that a war was on.
In Hong Kong, Maj Gen Christopher Maltby was issuing orders, moving stores and equipment onto the island, mobilising the volunteers, and overseeing the evacuation of the last remaining non-garrison military personnel along with some European civilians. The Naval dockyard began readying all ships, future maintenance overhauls delayed. Some merchant ships would be leaving Hong Kong later today, and most of the rest in the next few days, bound for safer southern waters
In Borneo, the volunteer forces were being mobilised, and the denial program of destruction was being prepared, but not yet implemented, while HMS Lipis, an auxiliary patrol vessel, was sailing from Singapore tonight, with extra demolition explosives, once they had been delivered, she would wait, ready to conduct the evacuation of those deemed essential or wanting to leave.
Back in Singapore, Park was issuing his orders, getting his air groups to be ready for a maximum effort, with all possible aircraft being brought up to operational readiness, airfields being prepared, last minute efforts by construction workers to focus on completing nearly finished work, at the cost of delaying other works with long term completions. RAAF 450 Sqn was moved up to Butterworth, crammed in with the two Blenheim Sqns, having been trained with long range fuel tanks, she would be the escort for any long-range raids. RNZAF 486 Sqn had moved to Kuantan, to offer air cover to any Royal Navy sortie that might happen. Park considered these his best two squadrons, which helped underline the importance he attached to the possible operations they might support.
Gort had also agreed with Phillips, shortly before leaving the Council, on another meeting, with their aides, tomorrow afternoon to discuss more fully what co-operation the Navy could offer Gort. Commanders in the Far East took a deep breath, was this it, was war coming, or just another false alarm?
Thanks for a more balanced view. Yes, who spots who first is going to have the advantage. As I've said for the Japanese it depends on how dark the night is, or if there is land shadow. For the British it depends on atmospherics, operator skill, and land shadow effecting radar. The RN still has to see the target to shot at it, and so has to get fairly close. At Matapan the RN sighted the Italians on radar, closed to 7,000 yards, which was about the maximum range for their torpedoes, and illuminated them with searchlights. using searchlights would be suicidal against the Japanese. Any ship that I know about that used a searchlight in the Solomons Campaign got killed. You might use them against torpedo boats who were right on top of you already.
In seeing the enemy first, I still have to give the edge to the Japanese with men with better night vision, and superior optical devices. If the night is very dark because of no moon, weather or other factors it still depends on who can see the other side, and in most cases the Japanese would see you first, even if you sighted them long before on radar, you still can't fire. After the development of FT radar in 1942 things start to change, now you can shoot at what you can't see. At that point Allied tactics start changing as they learn to use their radar capabilities. Even still in many battles in the Solomons IJN optics outperformed American radar, and their torpedo capabilities caught the Allies by total surprise. Force Z could go into an action where they start closing with the Japanese and start getting hit with torpedoes at 10,000 yards or better. But that's just my opinion.