with a POD of 1950, make the Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General of the Air Force/Army and Fleet Admiral.
Make the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs 5 Star Rank
- Thread starter NoOneFamous
- Start date
This is what I have come up with, POD is now 1946.
July 1, 1946 - Fleet Admiral W.D Leahy dies in an auto accident.
July 5, 1946 - President Truman appoints Admiral Raymond Spruance as his replacement. With the death of Leahy, Truman requests that Spruance be appointed Fleet Admiral in recognition of his WWII service.
September 1, 1946 - Raymond Spruance is promoted to Fleet Admiral.
July 26, 1947 - Truman signs the National Security Act of 1947, Spruance becomes the first Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
July 5, 1951 - Fleet Admiral Spruance steps down as Chairman of the JCS. He is succeeded by General of the Army Omar Bradley.
January 2nd, 1956 - Bradley announces that he will be stepping down in July 1957 after 6 years as CJCS. President Eisenhower and Secretary of Defense Marshall go before Congress to ask that all future Chairmen hold 5 star rank. After a lengthy debate in Congress, the National Security Act of 1957 is passed making the Chairman's position 5 star rank.
July 1, 1946 - Fleet Admiral W.D Leahy dies in an auto accident.
July 5, 1946 - President Truman appoints Admiral Raymond Spruance as his replacement. With the death of Leahy, Truman requests that Spruance be appointed Fleet Admiral in recognition of his WWII service.
September 1, 1946 - Raymond Spruance is promoted to Fleet Admiral.
July 26, 1947 - Truman signs the National Security Act of 1947, Spruance becomes the first Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
July 5, 1951 - Fleet Admiral Spruance steps down as Chairman of the JCS. He is succeeded by General of the Army Omar Bradley.
January 2nd, 1956 - Bradley announces that he will be stepping down in July 1957 after 6 years as CJCS. President Eisenhower and Secretary of Defense Marshall go before Congress to ask that all future Chairmen hold 5 star rank. After a lengthy debate in Congress, the National Security Act of 1957 is passed making the Chairman's position 5 star rank.
usertron2020
Donor
Five Stars never retire. I can think of more than a few Chairmen of the JCS that the POTUS was happy to see go...
Five Stars never retire. I can think of more than a few Chairmen of the JCS that the POTUS was happy to see go...
Yeah, but the position of Chairmen of the Joint Chief has a term limit, and while its true that Five Stars don't officially retire, I would think that after awhile their duties would become mostly ceremonial, you know inspecting the troops and so forth.
Easy. Bradley was a five star general. Maybe that's considered to be precedent setting.
BlondieBC
Banned
Actually, you don't even have to give them that many duties. It is just the get full pay, benefits, and perks for the rest of their life. So lets say someone makes it to 5 star by age 55, but lives to 95. Forty years of full pay. Plus all the perks a five/four star general gets. Office at Pentagon plus the flag LT's. Seems like 4 men headed by full Colonel. Driver plus vehicles. Priority at the golf courses. May get what is effective personal use of the private luxury jets. For example, if the 5 star decides he wants to go tour NATO HQ, you may be obligued to let him fly. I bet when you add up the staff associated with a 4/5 star General excluding the HQ staff, it pushes 50 people both military and civilian. In WW2, flag POW get a gardener, so I would not be shocked if that is still in the budget, somehow.
And don't get too tied up on the "official pay numbers". You have to look at resource controlled that other people don't have to counter sign to spend.
So in reality, I think you would have to give a 5 star a job somewhere in government. Military Academy, Ambassador, something. And this begins the hold up. IMO, if we had 5 star positions in the US military, they would be nearly life time jobs. For Example, General Powell might still be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Or Swartzkoft.
BlondieBC
Banned
Based on position. You don't actually have to have the highest ranking person in the the position that most commonly has the high rank. The same rules that allow an E-1 to be squad leader over an E-3 in Basic training or allows an officer to pick a less senior NCO to lead a mission over a more senior NCO also applies to officers. You can have a Colonel report to a major. Now it is rarely done, but it is allowable.
BlondieBC
Banned
Yes, I agree that is the start. I think you just need a little more to push Congress over the edge and change the law. Ike probably had the prestige to make permanent for the next Chairman. Another way would be to have an important ally (say France) insist on having its leader 5 star (FM whoever) and that he could only report in NATO to a man of equal rank. To avoid a political show down, then the NATO commander becomes a FM, and the the Joint Chiefs also become 5 star. In our current law, 5 star ranks are still authorized with something like "when required to facilitate the command structure in alliances". It was not abolished, it is just not used.
Something as simple as the Saudi's requiring a FM to lead Desert storm would be enough to bring back the rank. Or for that matter, the Egyptian condition to send over a division for desert storm is their FM does not report to 4 star.
usertron2020
Donor
If we had Five Stars since 1950, we could theoretically have almost as many Five Stars as Four Stars. We only have 37 Four Stars (including admirals) at any one time. If people want an idea of what this does to your military, just look at the French Army in 1940 Third Republic France, or the entire Soviet military starting in the Brezhnev Era. This will lead to a military hierarchy that looks like the top heavy military command structure of a South America dictatorship. Or the US Navy from after the American Civil War until the beginning of the buildup of the navy starting after the US-Chilean Crisis of 1879.
Ossification. Just because all these fossils aren't in line commands doesn't mean they won't be able to make their influence felt (very negatively based on history). Does anyone really want to see a 78 year old H. Norman Schwarzkopf helping to determine military strategy? A man who cut his teeth on the Vietnam War? It's one thing to have elderly SCOTUS justices still sitting on the bench, as their clerks really do all the work anyway. But in the armed forces, a level of clear headed thinking and physicality is needed. That comes from youth.
We only have 37 Four Stars (including admirals) at any one time. If people want an idea of what this does to your military, just look at the French Army in 1940 Third Republic France, or the entire Soviet military starting in the Brezhnev Era. This will lead to a military hierarchy that looks like the top heavy military command structure of a South America dictatorship. Or the US Navy from after the American Civil War until the beginning of the buildup of the navy starting after the US-Chilean Crisis of 1879.Ossification. Just because all these fossils aren't in line commands doesn't mean they won't be able to make their influence felt (very negatively based on history). Does anyone really want to see a 78 year old H. Norman Schwarzkopf helping to determine military strategy? A man who cut his teeth on the Vietnam War? It's one thing to have elderly SCOTUS justices still sitting on the bench, as their clerks really do all the work anyway. But in the armed forces, a level of clear headed thinking and physicality is needed. That comes from youth.
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There is an easy way to fix this - Once someone is appointed as CJCS, he is promoted to 5 star rank; once their term is over, they revert back to their previous 4 star rank.
but what other than the bling does being an 'Acting' 5 star bring over being a 4 star who is prima inter pares
BlondieBC
Banned
Full pay for life. Full priority use of military facilities and perks. A staff of at least 4 officers, probably all academy graduates. Driver plus vehicle plus communication equipment plus the men to operate them. Use of the Air Force luxury jets. A five star will bump a full ambassador based on military priorities. Full office suite suitable for a man of his rank at Pentagon, even if he has not done any military activity for years. All this for life.
So lets say that we used the more modest tradition of requiring successful wars or at least major battles to be promoted to 5 star (old German Field Marshall System). We get Swatzkopf and Powell as five stars still. There was a call for this and some Congressional support. Bush II would almost have certainly made 2-4 flag officers as 5 star on his "mission accomplished trip" Patreaus is probably one. Probably few others. So we have to have 10 offices in pentagon, 40 West Point Graduates on the promotion pack, 10 drivers plus vehicles (likely several vehicles per 5 star, not sure of protocol), 10 gardeners for their homes (yes, not kidding), etc. You would literally have the equivalent manpower and costs of a full Battalion, maybe regiment. I suspect a five star would almost have a personal airplane each, but less sure on these types of perks.
Now for the political issues. Swatzkopf can still show up at work at the Pentagon even if no duties are assigned. He can send out requests for information. Schedule meetings 3 and 4 stars can't avoid. Sure, he likely will still have done non military stuff after his "retirement", but he can come back at any time. Imagine say a very sincere Swatzkopf deciding to issue the "five star review" of the war in Iraq leading up to the 2006 midterms. Or Swatzkopf dining with Media on a daily basis and generating great quotes (like Patton did). In many ways you have to give these guys a command, and a prestigious one. Most likely, you end up with Swatzkopf as the 20 year Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. The service academies make a nice parking space for them, but there are not many other suitable commands once you get past 3 people of 5 star rank.
Now for a more touchy issue. And they knew this from MacArthur, who seems like was given West Point command even after Truman fired him. Think about Patreaus. He still gets to be CIA guy. And he still has affair. But unless you formally Court Martial him, he could be in the Pentagon today. Obama could not get rid of him. You can't fire a five star. They don't retire for age. Seems like the last five star died about 1978 (Nimitz). Congress can pass a law to demote them or you can do criminal charges. Huge, Huge political issues here. Republicans would be having a field day. There are a lot of reasons 5 stars (Field Marshals) are not popular today.
BlondieBC
Banned
Flag LT.
Now notice two year service window. I bet by protocol, a 5 star can pick pretty much any officer he wants of the correct rank. I also would suspect it would cause major issues if these Flag LT's don't get the next promotion. They have a champion of great power. So lets say we had 10 5 stars active. It means that every 2 years, they basically get to select 10 future one star officers. This is a huge power, so in many ways, they have a good deal of control over the promotion paths in the military, even if they don't have a command. So you might as well give them a command until the are sick enough to be spending each day in a nursing home. And I strongly suspect that even in the nursing home, these officers are still assigned. So you take 3 bright, talented officers, and park them on 2 year duty talking to an old man with demetia.
Now notice two year service window. I bet by protocol, a 5 star can pick pretty much any officer he wants of the correct rank. I also would suspect it would cause major issues if these Flag LT's don't get the next promotion. They have a champion of great power. So lets say we had 10 5 stars active. It means that every 2 years, they basically get to select 10 future one star officers. This is a huge power, so in many ways, they have a good deal of control over the promotion paths in the military, even if they don't have a command. So you might as well give them a command until the are sick enough to be spending each day in a nursing home. And I strongly suspect that even in the nursing home, these officers are still assigned. So you take 3 bright, talented officers, and park them on 2 year duty talking to an old man with demetia.
He´s talking about an acting rank, that is it is only temporary. In this case it would be bound to the position. I suppose one could justify that with him deserving a higher pay for having that position, but only as long as he holds it.
please read what noonefamous, historyfool and I wrote, given the reasons above have been cited as a reason why substantive 5 -star rank is NOT used - what other than the 'bling' does it bring if the Joint chief is '4 and a half' substantive stars or 'acting' (for the duration of appointment ) 5 -star (regardless of the nation in question) vs. remaining as a 4 star general and being prima inter pares[/1] between their role and single service 4 stars ?
usertron2020
Donor
Whether a Five Star Fleet Admiral or General of the Army, or the higher rank of General of the Armies (Four Gold Stars, awarded only to John Pershing), or the never existent for the US military "Field Marshal", (1) all of these ranks are for life. That is a tradition for all nation's militaries. I can't see what was done for the WWII Five Stars being taken away for future Five Stars. Also, IIRC, Halsey and Bradley didn't get their fifth stars until after VJ-Day.
1) Minor detail: The US was going to utilize the rank of Field Marshal, or just Marshal, but nobody wanted to see the US Army Chief-of-Staff being referred to as "Marshal Marshall".
1) Minor detail: The US was going to utilize the rank of Field Marshal, or just Marshal, but nobody wanted to see the US Army Chief-of-Staff being referred to as "Marshal Marshall".
I suppose that it's also because because the pointy end of the hierarchy is supposed to be the POTUS and SECDEF, that's my impression based on the Goldwater–Nichols Act and the Unified Combatant Command system, which the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff/Chiefs of Staff/Joint Staff are explicitly sidelined from.