Make Africa the birthplace of civalisation- make the rest of the world less civilised

[Archon of Thessaly]

As it says on the tin. I think Africa has been wrongly neglected when it comes to making TL about a more powerful nation. Australia's been done, so's both american continents. But why not the birthplace of mankind itself?

Africa is full of minerals, farmland and could easily give rise to civalisation as Mali and Ashanti showed. So why not a Roman or assarsyan Africa?

Oh and Egypt dosnt count.

 

[Elfwine]

Easier said than done. Geography, climate, and natural critters work against it.

 

[JacktheCat]

First off, Africa is a continent, not a country or even a region.

Second, it's the second biggest continent after Asia with worse geography. Talking about a united or 'single region' Africa is like talking about a 'single region' Asia, but more so.

As for why Africa was last on the list for civilising forces, anything by Jared Diamond is a good read.

J. Diamond goes a little overboard sometimes on the environmental determinism, but his main points all valid and supportable: geography, germs and 'critters'.

 

[OneUp]

I'm guessing you don't mean North Africa. My best guess would be that Axum swallows the City-States on the east coast of Africa and somehow stays alive and thrives throughout the Ottoman conquests and maintains a good relationship with "The Western Christians" maybe even converting to Catholicism at one point (though I have no idea how you pull that off and being friendly or thriving while the Ottomans have you cut off from Europe)

Have this Axumite empire survive through when the age of discovery would be otl. However since this empire likely thrives on trade with the Indian ocean trade and routing it to Europe, the Europeans have less (not much but less) of a reason to start searching for alternatives to finding a route to India and China. Less forward momentum for the Europeans, and eventually as persecuted Christians like the Puritans have nowhere to go, civil wars or at the very least divisions that injure societal health sucks money and brain power from Europe. This sets back Europe back a little.



To further wank East Africa you can (I don't know if is culturally viable) have the East African empire conquer other areas and set up trading posts (as it is primarily a trading nation) thus setting up a type of "Imperial East India Company" just setting up shop all over South Africa and maybe even into parts of South America.

Overtime the riches of the East African Empire encourages lavish spending on public projects such as centers of learning and attracts scholars from the muslim and christian world (I'm assuming even if they are catholic they are friendly or able to deal with the muslims out of necessity) War with the Ottomans is sure to happen but with survival comes military experience and they import ideas for weapons and tactics from the East as well as the West and grow stronger in the process.

By the 16th century you have a powerful East African empire with trading posts all over South Africa and establishing trade with MesoAmerica (though there is not much to trade, they may eventually meet the Inca and trade for Gold)

You have a still "primitive" North America that is susceptible to the first time an Old Worlder sneezes. And a south America ripe for exploitation by the West Africans when they inevitably start realizing the riches the East Africans can make from trade (perhaps they are the first to get in contact with the Aztecs this time)

Can't do anything about Asia, the mainplayer, China I'd imagine probably stagnate like OTL thanks to good old racism and conviction that they're way of doing things is the best (though considering how well off they were til the Opium wars one could argue they were right to a certain point).

A weaker western Europe can have more problems from the Ottomans and this may lead to more wars, weakening or strengthening the Ottomans (honestly this could go either way) When Europe (because who else has a real incentive to look west?) finds the Americas they will probably start colonizing the North Americas starting near New Foundland where Basque fisherman have been fishing for a long time. The riches of the south will probably come too late to affect the rise of East Africa.

 

[Archon of Thessaly]

First off, Africa is a continent, not a country or even a region.

Second, it's the second biggest continent after Asia with worse geography. Talking about a united or 'single region' Africa is like talking about a 'single region' Asia, but more so.

As for why Africa was last on the list for civilising forces, anything by Jared Diamond is a good read.

J. Diamond goes a little overboard sometimes on the environmental determinism, but his main points all valid and supportable: geography, germs and 'critters'.

Yes i've read his works and other slimier books, but i fear he neglects key areas- creativity, competition e.c.t. Africa has that. Indeed, it could be argued Africa had as good climate as the fertile crescent.

Perhaps if the volcano eruption that occurred several thousand years ago the wiped out most of early Homo Sapiens was more severe and forced them to migrate to the fertile areas of africa?

 

[Archon of Thessaly]

I'm guessing you don't mean North Africa. My best guess would be that Axum swallows the City-States on the east coast of Africa and somehow stays alive and thrives throughout the Ottoman conquests and maintains a good relationship with "The Western Christians" maybe even converting to Catholicism at one point (though I have no idea how you pull that off and being friendly or thriving while the Ottomans have you cut off from Europe)

Have this Axumite empire survive through when the age of discovery would be otl. However since this empire likely thrives on trade with the Indian ocean trade and routing it to Europe, the Europeans have less (not much but less) of a reason to start searching for alternatives to finding a route to India and China. Less forward momentum for the Europeans, and eventually as persecuted Christians like the Puritans have nowhere to go, civil wars or at the very least divisions that injure societal health sucks money and brain power from Europe. This sets back Europe back a little.



To further wank East Africa you can (I don't know if is culturally viable) have the East African empire conquer other areas and set up trading posts (as it is primarily a trading nation) thus setting up a type of "Imperial East India Company" just setting up shop all over South Africa and maybe even into parts of South America.

Overtime the riches of the East African Empire encourages lavish spending on public projects such as centers of learning and attracts scholars from the muslim and christian world (I'm assuming even if they are catholic they are friendly or able to deal with the muslims out of necessity) War with the Ottomans is sure to happen but with survival comes military experience and they import ideas for weapons and tactics from the East as well as the West and grow stronger in the process.

By the 16th century you have a powerful East African empire with trading posts all over South Africa and establishing trade with MesoAmerica (though there is not much to trade, they may eventually meet the Inca and trade for Gold)

You have a still "primitive" North America that is susceptible to the first time an Old Worlder sneezes. And a south America ripe for exploitation by the West Africans when they inevitably start realizing the riches the East Africans can make from trade (perhaps they are the first to get in contact with the Aztecs this time)

Can't do anything about Asia, the mainplayer, China I'd imagine probably stagnate like OTL thanks to good old racism and conviction that they're way of doing things is the best (though considering how well off they were til the Opium wars one could argue they were right to a certain point).

A weaker western Europe can have more problems from the Ottomans and this may lead to more wars, weakening or strengthening the Ottomans (honestly this could go either way) When Europe (because who else has a real incentive to look west?) finds the Americas they will probably start colonizing the North Americas starting near New Foundland where Basque fisherman have been fishing for a long time. The riches of the south will probably come too late to affect the rise of East Africa.

Would be difficult doing the POD that late. I was thinking in terms of 10s of thousands of years at the origin of mankind. Otherwise it will be too late to effect development.

And i dont think Axum could survive- it lacked the structure needed i think.

 

[OneUp]

I also forgot to mention, while East Africa will have a hard time with animals they can still import Camels, Donkeys, and hell even Elephants if they get the hankering for it from India (which I imagine would be a major trading partner)

 

[JacktheCat]

This ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsetse_fly


.

 

[Elfwine]

Yes i've read his works and other slimier books, but i fear he neglects key areas- creativity, competition e.c.t. Africa has that. Indeed, it could be argued Africa had as good climate as the fertile crescent.

Perhaps if the volcano eruption that occurred several thousand years ago the wiped out most of early Homo Sapiens was more severe and forced them to migrate to the fertile areas of africa?

Where in Africa are you comparing to the fertile crescent? There are places in Africa that are very tempting, and places that . . . aren't.

 

[thekingsguard]

Have Portugal grant the Kingdom of Kongo all the help that was promised to them, allowing Kongo to pull a Meji in the 1500s, and they absorb much of the Congo basin while keeping on pace with the Europeans. By the time of the OTL age of colinization, Kongo will be powerful, dominant in the region, and likely on good terms with most of Europes premier powers.

 

[joho6411]

Easier said than done. Geography, climate, and natural critters work against it.

What he said .....Joho

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Have Portugal grant the Kingdom of Kongo all the help that was promised to them, allowing Kongo to pull a Meji in the 1500s, and they absorb much of the Congo basin while keeping on pace with the Europeans. By the time of the OTL age of colinization, Kongo will be powerful, dominant in the region, and likely on good terms with most of Europes premier powers.

This could work.

 

[eliphas8]

Getting rid of malaria is a good first step, the major reason the Niger River wasn't another cradle of civilization was because of that.

 

[Detlef]

Yes i've read his works and other slimier books, but i fear he neglects key areas- creativity, competition e.c.t. Africa has that. Indeed, it could be argued Africa had as good climate as the fertile crescent.

Perhaps if the volcano eruption that occurred several thousand years ago the wiped out most of early Homo Sapiens was more severe and forced them to migrate to the fertile areas of africa?

Didn´t you answer yourself in the first sentence?
Humans originated in Africa so the ones staying there should have had a head-start so to speak. Finding plants and animals to domesticate and start a civilization.
As you say they have the same creativity and talent as humans anywhere else.

And IIRC that´s exactly one of the points Diamond made in his book.
Namely the number of potential plants and animals available for domestication in one region. Followed by how easily knowledge of them then can spread to other regions, the "geography, germs and 'critters' " problem.
Pointing out that humans in Africa or the Americas for example would have "tested" plants and animals just like humans in the Fertile Crescent did. And if they found less of them it wasn´t for lack of trying. But simply because less was available.
How do you overcome that with "creativity and competition"?

 

[Archon of Thessaly]

I also forgot to mention, while East Africa will have a hard time with animals they can still import Camels, Donkeys, and hell even Elephants if they get the hankering for it from India (which I imagine would be a major trading partner)

Hmmm an empire emerging in Sub-saharen Africa thanks to Camels is an interesting prospect.

 

[twovultures]

Hmmm an empire emerging in Sub-saharen Africa thanks to Camels is an interesting prospect.

There's limited areas where camels can survive in sub-saharan Africa. In the sahel at the edge of the Sahara, and in northern Kenya and Somalia, but generally Africa is just not a good place for them. Leaving aside sleeping sickness, it's just too wet.

Vastly earlier introductions of cassava, bananas and maize could help, as these crops boosted Africa's population (but at a time when said population came under assault from slave raids). An earlier population boom from these plants could create cradles of civilization, but introducing them so early in history is...problematic. Migratory birds carrying seeds, perhaps?

 

[Archon of Thessaly]

There's limited areas where camels can survive in sub-saharan Africa. In the sahel at the edge of the Sahara, and in northern Kenya and Somalia, but generally Africa is just not a good place for them. Leaving aside sleeping sickness, it's just too wet.

Vastly earlier introductions of cassava, bananas and maize could help, as these crops boosted Africa's population (but at a time when said population came under assault from slave raids). An earlier population boom from these plants could create cradles of civilization, but introducing them so early in history is...problematic. Migratory birds carrying seeds, perhaps?

True-but we've seen all sort of strange things happen in Tl's.....like a mutation in a certain crop in Australia......oh where have i heard that one....

 

[BlondieBC]

Have Portugal grant the Kingdom of Kongo all the help that was promised to them, allowing Kongo to pull a Meji in the 1500s, and they absorb much of the Congo basin while keeping on pace with the Europeans. By the time of the OTL age of colinization, Kongo will be powerful, dominant in the region, and likely on good terms with most of Europes premier powers.

I can see this sort of working. Portugal decides it is easier to have a single/few large trading partner, so it actively works to support just a handful of tribes that win out with superior technology over other natives.

 

[thekingsguard]

I can see this sort of working. Portugal decides it is easier to have a single/few large trading partner, so it actively works to support just a handful of tribes that win out with superior technology over other natives.

For a time they did this - there was a brief time when the Empire of Kongo, epsecially under King Alfonso, enjoyed the same sort of respect and prestige that a European Kingdom would - just have that continue and develop further.

 

[Jared]

True-but we've seen all sort of strange things happen in Tl's.....like a mutation in a certain crop in Australia......oh where have i heard that one....

The thing is, though, that even that chance mutation did not make *Australia the birthplace of civilisation. Just one relatively late-starting cradle of civilisation amongst many.

Multiple PoDs would be needed to make Australia the birthplace of civilisation. The same is true of most of Africa. Although you could make a case that a couple of domesticable crops in the Nile may turn Egypt into an earlier-developing civilisation.