Little Admiral Story Discussion

I became a fan of alternate history many years ago. Turtledove was a major reason for me becoming interested in the genre, with his Southern Victory and his Worldwar series being the ones that really drew me in. But there was one collection of stories that introduced me to the concept of alternate history. It was Third Reich Victorious: Alternate Decisions of World War II by Peter G. Tsouras as editor. I occasionally re-read this novel that holds 10 alt-history stories detailing how the Nazis won the war, or in the case of a few, delayed their defeat for a couple of more years.

While most deal with victories on land (almost always using Rommel in some way) or victories in the air, my favorite of the short stories is actually the first in the novel, called The Little Admiral by Wade G. Dudley. It is a story that centers on a young Adolf Hitler joining the German Hochseeflotte rather than the German Army. prior to the outbreak of World War One. In this story, Hitler ascends the ranks, first as a common sailor to petty officer to a ship commander's adjutant, and eventually second-in-command of a U-boat. Over the course of WW1, Hitler becomes close with Erich Raeder and Karl Dönitz (particularly the latter) and loses his Antisemitism in the Navy but this anger is re-directed at England, becoming a fierce Anglophobe. WW1 ends the same but Hitler remains apart of the Navy as part of the secretive Ship Design Bureau where he draws up plans and theories for the German Navy to center around U-boats and carriers.

Hitler goes on to create the Nazi Party, retiring from the Navy in 1922, and uses his blueshirts to enforce his will and his charismatic speeches to garner a following. He isn't imprisoned for the Beer Hall Putsch, as that blame is put on Ludendorff's shoulders, and wins the German election for president in 1932. He then unites the two offices into the Führer in 1933, and in 1934 when he publicly denounces the Versailles Treaty the lion's share of the Third Reich's military budget goes to the newly created Kriegsmarine. The Rhineland was remilitarized in 1934 and Austria and Sudetenland was integrated into the Reich in 1936.

The German Navy rapidly expanded (at great cost to the German Army, limiting its size and armored forces). By 1939 the German Kriegsmarine consisted of 4 capital ships (battleships, pocket battleships and battlecruisers), 4 carriers, 3 cruisers, 53 destroyers, and 131 submarines. The Schutzstaffel was created as a bodyguard to Hitler and as the Marines for this new navy. On September 1st, 1939 while the German Heer and Luftwaffe invaded Poland, the Kriegsmarine conducted a Pearl Harbor-like assault on the British naval base at Scapa Flow. Following that the Kriegsmarine began to systematically hunt down Royal Navy vessels, only attacking merchant ships if the opportunity presented itself.

What followed was 2 years of almost non-stop German victories at sea, a combination of luck, skill, training, and unit coordination that saw the Royal Navy greatly diminished and in 1941 (the Low Countries and France fell to Germany in 1940 though it took a bit longer due to a smaller Army) the Germans invaded Britain and occupied it.

Since the concept of a Navy Hitler and a pro-Navy Third Reich is fascinating and largely ignored as it is seen as unrealistic and wasteful, I find the concept nonetheless intriguing. Are there any timelines/stories out there on this website (or elsewhere) that features a pro-Navy Nazi Germany and/or one where Hitler joined the Navy and not the Army?

How large could the Kriegsmarine have become if Hitler prioritized it at the cost of the Army? The Heer would still be strong, just smaller and not as well equipped or having as many panzers as they had OTL when WW2 broke out, if it breaks out in 1939. Would a story set in a similar universe and concept be something that people here would enjoy?
 
No AGNA or equivalent equals an earlier British and probably by extension earlier French rearmament as without it there is no tacit British agreement for Germany to abandon the ToV. And without it Britain and France likely take a harder stance in the late 30s. Building such a fleet as you describe telegraphs a single intention. That is to blockade Britain. And I suspect that the British might just notice.
 
It is more difficult to quietly build a large fleet (versus Luftwaffe or Panzers) because Germany only has a few ports on the North Sea and Baltic.
How do you clandestinely build U-boats and sail them down rivers or canals?

Would Japan help Kriegsmarine develop carrier aircraft?
 
It is more difficult to quietly build a large fleet (versus Luftwaffe or Panzers) because Germany only has a few ports on the North Sea and Baltic.
How do you clandestinely build U-boats and sail them down rivers or canals?

Would Japan help Kriegsmarine develop carrier aircraft?
In the story the Germans received some torpedo technology from the Japanese.

No AGNA or equivalent equals an earlier British and probably by extension earlier French rearmament as without it there is no tacit British agreement for Germany to abandon the ToV. And without it Britain and France likely take a harder stance in the late 30s. Building such a fleet as you describe telegraphs a single intention. That is to blockade Britain. And I suspect that the British might just notice.

Very true. The story was one of the more unrealistic ones in the anthology but intrigued me nonetheless. How large do you think the Kriegsmarine could have become without warranting British intervention pre-war?
 
The German Navy rapidly expanded (at great cost to the German Army, limiting its size and armored forces). By 1939 the German Kriegsmarine consisted of 4 capital ships (battleships, pocket battleships and battlecruisers), 4 carriers, 3 cruisers, 53 destroyers, and 131 submarines. The Schutzstaffel was created as a bodyguard to Hitler and as the Marines for this new navy. On September 1st, 1939 while the German Heer and Luftwaffe invaded Poland, the Kriegsmarine conducted a Pearl Harbor-like assault on the British naval base at Scapa Flow. Following that the Kriegsmarine began to systematically hunt down Royal Navy vessels, only attacking merchant ships if the opportunity presented itself.

Only four capital ships including Panzerschiffe's and three cruisers is nowhere near a competent enough screening force for something like a pair of carriers, let alone four of them. Fifty odd destroyers and the large number of submarines is nice however, that fleet is going to be swept aside by whatever fleet the RN has, likely potentially larger and with more advanced designs due to the Germans trying to effectively rebuild their own navy. Some of those four carriers would have to be civilian conversions or early purpose built carriers, aka not particularly useful overall in a major attack of a fleet anchorage.

WW1 ends the same but Hitler remains apart of the Navy as part of the secretive Ship Design Bureau where he draws up plans and theories for the German Navy to center around U-boats and carriers.

Not sure if this exists or not but regardless, the German naval staff was thoroughly stripped out and replaced with largely incompetent people in the interwar period, I can't see such a design bureau coming to be. Even less likely I'd think is their movement towards aircraft carriers, submarines and surface ships I can see but carriers seems like peering unfairly into the future especially so early.

What followed was 2 years of almost non-stop German victories at sea, a combination of luck, skill, training, and unit coordination that saw the Royal Navy greatly diminished and in 1941 (the Low Countries and France fell to Germany in 1940 though it took a bit longer due to a smaller Army) the Germans invaded Britain and occupied it.

I don't think this is particularly possible, especially with such a fleet that you've outlined. Operation Sealion was doomed from the start and no widdling down of RN assets and propping up of German naval assets would have changed that, you are effectively throwing away any resources you assign to such an operation.

It's a somewhat interesting premise but entirely unrealistic.
 
Only four capital ships including Panzerschiffe's and three cruisers is nowhere near a competent enough screening force for something like a pair of carriers, let alone four of them. Fifty odd destroyers and the large number of submarines is nice however, that fleet is going to be swept aside by whatever fleet the RN has, likely potentially larger and with more advanced designs due to the Germans trying to effectively rebuild their own navy. Some of those four carriers would have to be civilian conversions or early purpose built carriers, aka not particularly useful overall in a major attack of a fleet anchorage.



Not sure if this exists or not but regardless, the German naval staff was thoroughly stripped out and replaced with largely incompetent people in the interwar period, I can't see such a design bureau coming to be. Even less likely I'd think is their movement towards aircraft carriers, submarines and surface ships I can see but carriers seems like peering unfairly into the future especially so early.



I don't think this is particularly possible, especially with such a fleet that you've outlined. Operation Sealion was doomed from the start and no widdling down of RN assets and propping up of German naval assets would have changed that, you are effectively throwing away any resources you assign to such an operation.

It's a somewhat interesting premise but entirely unrealistic.

Thank you for the detailed response.

What if instead of 4 carriers, the Germans have 2 carriers, 6 capital ships, 40 destroyers but maintain the submarines. Would this be a more realistic navy buildup if the Kriegsmarine was given the lion’s share of the military budget?

I agree it’s unrealistic, I’m just curious if it can be possible in some way. And I hadn’t thought of pre-planning for carriers in that story would be very future-seeing but it is, hindsight and all.

What do you think is a realistic German Navy on the eve of September 1939 if Hitler had come to power in early 1932 and not 1933. This includes earlier demilitarization of the Rhineland and the annexing of Austria and Sudetenland in 1937/early 1938 respectively.
 
Very true. The story was one of the more unrealistic ones in the anthology but intrigued me nonetheless. How large do you think the Kriegsmarine could have become without warranting British intervention pre-war?

So given a 1933 start?

Battleships are a long lead item - even for nations with a legacy of building them.

For Germany it took effectively 1934 from final design to 1939 to order, laydown, launch and commission the Scharnhorst - so roughly 5 years although they both spent most of their first year conducting trials and training

It took about the same for the Bismarcks

Granted there was a delay in 1934 when Hitler waited for the AGNA to be signed but I assume that with the development of a non balanced navy in this TL that has not happened.

So it is possible that germany gets to build 4 Battleships sooner but not by much

Now Aircraft carriers.

Carrier aviation is something that you have to do in order to be good at it.

The 3 powers that did do carrier aviation in WW2 had all spent 2 decades working at it and still made plenty of mistakes and took several years to get to grips with these systems and iron out inefficiencies with their doctrines - something that happened too late for the Japanese who started out as the better of the 3.

So the idea that a nation that does not practice naval aviation until the late 30s can suddenly become really good at it does not wash.

Also assuming 4 modern BBs and 4 Fleet carriers can get laid down by 1939 which I suspect would not be possible that is still a force that is outnumbered by the British

And such a fleet being built in the late 30s outside of an AGNA type agreement has only one opponent in mind
 
Top