List of Alternate Presidents and PMs II

[Nofix]

Speaking of dumb cliches which were once good, has "Populist Democrats, Libertarian GOP" ever been done before No Southern Strategy began?

I do believe it was a thing, but NSS did it by far the best and as a result everyone just copies them.

I do worry the day we become as unfunny as Seinfeld.

 

[Steve Brinson]

Party (Leader/Nominee's name) has to be the worst format I have ever seen.

Good list though.

Truth be told, I kind of like it.

 

[Aaaaasima]

Truth be told, I kind of like it.

It is pretty clunky. I don't see the problem with just keeping it as it is.

 

[Kermode]

Party (Leader/Nominee's name) has to be the worst format I have ever seen.

It's a little disorienting since the PMs are still in Name (Party) order.

 

[V-J]

Though the circumstances of how Chikatilo becomes leader of the USSR are never explained, (Literally) and it's basically handwaved in FaT (None of the replies above are accurate on it) the overall situation that the USSR is in at that specific point means it's sort of understandable. It's in a very, very chaotic situation at that stage. The author was clearly finishing off the TL at that point though, and I think it's pretty clear they wanted to throw in the towel on a big finish.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/foralltime/index.html#start if you want to read the whole thing.

The one thing I never got is how relatively normal Britain was in FaT - I mean the author evidently wasn't too au fait with UK politics, but considering how the rest of Europe goes....

 

[Cevolian]

Though the circumstances of how Chikatilo becomes leader of the USSR are never explained, (Literally) and it's basically handwaved in FaT (None of the replies above are accurate on it) the overall situation that the USSR is in at that specific point means it's sort of understandable. It's in a very, very chaotic situation at that stage. The author was clearly finishing off the TL at that point though, and I think it's pretty clear they wanted to throw in the towel on a big finish.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/foralltime/index.html#start if you want to read the whole thing.

The one thing I never got is how relatively normal Britain was in FaT - I mean the author evidently wasn't too au fait with UK politics, but considering how the rest of Europe goes....

What's wrong with the above replies (genuine question, I have no idea about it other than it being very grimdark)?

And really why is Britain so normal? Is it just a case of OTL if slightly worse or something?

 

[V-J]

What's wrong with the above replies (genuine question, I have no idea about it other than it being very grimdark)?

And really why is Britain so normal? Is it just a case of OTL if slightly worse or something?

I don't want to go into things too much in case people haven't read it. It's really worth reading in full rather than having me spoilerise the whole thing.

Britain is just... strangely normal. There is a huge constitutional event near the end which frankly is not done too well, but that's pretty small beer considering what goes on in the rest of the world.

 

[The Red]

Though the circumstances of how Chikatilo becomes leader of the USSR are never explained, (Literally) and it's basically handwaved in FaT (None of the replies above are accurate on it) the overall situation that the USSR is in at that specific point means it's sort of understandable. It's in a very, very chaotic situation at that stage. The author was clearly finishing off the TL at that point though, and I think it's pretty clear they wanted to throw in the towel on a big finish.

The TL was becoming a bit of Soviet wank up till that point, indeed it looked like they were set to win the Cold War prior to Moscow getting nuked. In the circumstances it was rather easy to just handwave Chikatilo getting into power through. If a similar situation happened to Washington just now there's a system in place for, say, Rick Perry, to announce "I've survived and so I'm in charge" because she was the designated survivor, but it was implied that Suslov was even more power-obsessive than Stalin, if also more competent. If he and almost all of the Politburo suddenly died, it really would be up in the air about who would have replaced him. It's still mental that it turned out to be Chikatilo of course, but the actual circumstances weren't the worst premise.

The one thing I never got is how relatively normal Britain was in FaT - I mean the author evidently wasn't too au fait with UK politics, but considering how the rest of Europe goes....

England leaving the UK counts as "relatively normal"?

 

[V-J]

England leaving the UK counts as "relatively normal"?

"Huge constitutional event", as I discussed in #3448.

I mean, did you not get the palpable sense reading that it was thrown in as an 'oh shit, I've neglected Britain, time to throw some crazy! into the mix' thing? I don't want to give the impression that I'm labouring this point given I thing the whole TL does some interesting things as you've said, but that issue is not remotely well-executed at all.

 

[The Red]

"Huge constitutional event", as I discussed in #3448.

I mean, did you not get the palpable sense reading that it was thrown in as an 'oh shit, I've neglected Britain, time to throw some crazy! into the mix' thing? I don't want to give the impression that I'm labouring this point given I thing the whole TL does some interesting things as you've said, but that issue is not remotely well-executed at all.

Oh very much so, I actually once spent time skimming the previous pages of the TL to see if there was any mention of Welsh separatists before they started mounting a major insurgency, but no, they do just appear.

I did like PM Eck in the 2002 round-up though.

 

[Oppo]

I was thinking about the similarities between Jean Chrétien and LBJ....

and this happened

1965-1973: Lyndon B. Johnson/Robert F. Kennedy (Democratic)
1964: Pedro Albizu Campos/Various (Puerto Rican Nationalist), James O. Eastland/Ezra Taft Benson (American Freedom), Georgia Cozzini/Henning A. Blomen (Socialist Labor), Barry Goldwater/William E. Miller (Republican)
1968: James O. Eastland/Ezra Taft Benson (American Freedom), Rubén Berríos/Various (Puerto Rican Nationalist), Margaret Wright/Louis Fischer (Socialist Labor), George Romney/Louise Day Hicks (Republican)
1973-1977: Lyndon B. Johnson/Larry O'Brien (Democratic)
1972: Bob Jones Jr./Harry F. Byrd Jr. (Allied), Rubén Berríos/Various (Puerto Rican Nationalist), Margaret Wright/Louis Fischer (Socialist Labor), Harold Stassen/Edward Brooke (Republican)
1977-1981: Robert F. Kennedy/John Glenn (Democratic)
1976: Dick Cheney/John Volpe (Conservative), Rubén Berríos/Various (Puerto Rican Nationalist), Barry Commoner/Ralph Nader (Socialist Labor)
1981-1993: Dick Cheney/John Chafee (Conservative)
1980: Robert F. Kennedy/John Glenn (Democratic), Rubén Berríos/Various (Puerto Rican Nationalist), Barry Commoner/Ralph Nader (Socialist Labor)
1984: John Connally/John Silber (Democratic), Rubén Berríos/Various (Puerto Rican Nationalist), Barry Commoner/Ralph Nader (Socialist Labor), Howie Hawkins/Mike Feinstein (Green)
1988: Barry Commoner/Ralph Nader (Socialist Labor), John Silber/Fred Harris (Democratic), Rubén Berríos/Various (Puerto Rican Nationalist), Howie Hawkins/Mike Feinstein (Green)
1993-Present: Lynda Bird Johnson Robb/Robert McNamara (Democratic)
1992: Dick Cheney/John Chafee (Conservative), Jerry Brown/Ralph Nader (Socialist Labor), Rubén Berríos/Various (Puerto Rican Nationalist), Howie Hawkins/Mike Feinstein (Green)

 

[Fleetlord]

I was thinking about the similarities between Jean Chrétien and LBJ....

Puerto Rico is way too small for their nationalists to consistently come in second or even third -- I think the BQ-analogue needs to be the *Dixiecrats, cliche though it may be.

 

[Oppo]

Puerto Rico is way too small for their nationalists to consistently come in second or even third -- I think the BQ-analogue needs to be the *Dixiecrats, cliche though it may be.

The 1964 result was Johnson winning every state but Mississippi and PR, with the Nats being second by one electoral vote. The SLP didn’t win any states until 1988.

 

[glenn67]

The 1964 result was Johnson winning every state but Mississippi and PR, with the Nats being second by one electoral vote. The SLP didn’t win any states until 1988.

Or you could have the Texas Bloc instead of Puerto Rican Nationalists. John Tower leads the Texas Bloc and after the No side barely wins the secession vote, Tower is elected Governor of Texas.

 

[Oppo]

2010-2012: Jim Karygiannis (Renewal-Alliance coalition)

I don’t think Karygiannis would join Renewal, he was a strong Chrétien loyalist. An absolutely tremendous list though.

 

[Gordian]

I don’t think Karygiannis would join Renewal, he was a strong Chrétien loyalist. An absolutely tremendous list though.

In 1990, yes, but he became a strong Chrétien critic in later years and later organized Paul Martin's successful campaign for the leadership in 2003.

 

[Oppo]

In 1990, yes, but he became a strong Chrétien critic in later years and later organized Paul Martin's successful campaign for the leadership in 2003.

Oh, that’s interesting. My mistake.

 

[KiwiEater]

Prime Ministers of Canada:
1993-2005: Jean Chretien (Liberal)
-93: Lucien Bouchard (Bloc Quebecois), Preston Manning (Reform), Audrey McLaughlin (New Democratic), Kim Campbell (Progressive Conservative)
-97: Preston Manning (Reform), Gilles Duceppe (Bloc Quebecois), Alexa McDonough (New Democratic), Jean Charest (Progressive Conservative)
-02: Stockwell Day (Alliance), Gilles Duceppe (Bloc Quebecois), Alexa McDonough (New Democratic), Joe Clark (Progressive Conservative)
-02: Joe Volpe [de-facto] (“Martinite Liberal”), Joe Clark (Progressive Conservative), Stockwell Day (Alliance), Gilles Duceppe (Bloc Quebecois), Alexa McDonough (New Democratic)
2005-2010: Allan Rock (Liberal)
-06: Jim Karygiannis (Renewal), Jack Layton (New Democratic), Joe Clark (Progressive Conservative), Brian Pallister (Alliance), Francine Lalonde (Bloc Quebecois)
-10 (minority): Jim Karygiannis (Renewal), Brian Pallister (Alliance), Jack Layton (New Democratic), David Orchard (Progressive Conservative), Francine Lalonde (Bloc Quebecois), Elizabeth May (Green)
2010-2012: Jim Karygiannis (Renewal-Alliance coalition)
2012-2015: David Dodge (Renewal-Alliance coalition, then Renewal)
-14: Martin Cauchon (Liberal), Paul Dewar (New Democratic), David Orchard (Progressive Conservative), Brian Pallister (Alliance), Elizabeth May (Green), Pierre Paquette (Bloc Quebecois)
2015-2018: Jean Charest (Renewal)
2018-present: Joyce Murray (Liberal)
-18: Jean Charest (Renewal), Kevin O’Leary (Alliance), Paul Dewar (New Democratic), Elizabeth May (Green), Katherine O’Neill (Progressive Conservative), Catherine Fournier (Bloc Quebecois), David Orchard (National)

The POD here (aside, I suppose, from Stockwell Day staying on as Alliance leader) is that the feud between Chretien and Martin escalates to the point where Chretien calls a snap election in 2002 to reaffirm his leadership – as he had threatened to do IOTL. Outraged by his move, Martin supporters publicly campaign against Chretien, strongly criticizing his decision to run for a fourth term, and, with the harshest critics barred from running as Liberals, run on their own various labels, with Martinite MP Joe Volpe acting as their de-facto leader. Martin himself however, retires; still aiming to succeed Chretien as Liberal leader (whenever that might be), he refuses to weigh in on the split and keeps out of the spotlight through most of the election.

With Chretien and his government highly popular, and the opposition parties dealing with their own issues, he’s re-elected with a large majority. In a surprise, the Martinites, combined, narrowly manage to form the official opposition thanks largely to the local strength of their candidates and, again, the ineptitude of their competition. Chretien retires in 2005 after twelve years as Prime Minister, eager to get back to private life and increasingly dogged by scandal. Martin runs to replace him, but by this point his reputation in the party is pretty tarnished. With the Martinites (by this point caucusing under the “Renewal” label) proving to be an irritating opposition, their direct association with Martin causes many Liberals to view him with disdain. As a result, the party selects Chretien-loyalist Allan Rock as his successor.

Rock wins a majority of his own in 2006, with Renewal, eager for revenge after Martin’s defeat, again forming the opposition (in another surprise) thanks to the populist campaign by leader Jim Karygiannis. While the rest of the opposition is in better shape, the split on the right between Brian Pallister’s Alliance and Joe Clark’s PCs (Clark having opted to stay on as leader following the party’s decent-enough performance in the previous election) allows the NDP to pass the PCs and Alliance and place third under their charismatic new leader Jack Layton.

Following the party’s poor performance, Clark resigns as PC leader, and is replaced (to the horror of the party establishment and most of its caucus) by David Orchard. Orchard’s leadership quickly proves controversial, prompting a series of floor-crossings to both the Alliance and, more frequently, Renewal, though repeated attempts to force him to resign as leader fail. With Karygiannis narrowing the party’s policies to the center-right (as opposed to its previous big tent views), Renewal rises in the polls by attracting most of the Progressive Conservative’s traditional supporters, and thanks to Karygiannis’ populist leadership striking a chord with Canadians frustrated by the economic downturn.

By 2010, the economy has it a low point, and Canadians have grown tired after 17 years of Liberal governance, though thanks to the split opposition the party still manages to win a plurality of seats, albeit a minority. Though the Alliance comes in second in the popular vote, Renewal narrowly wins more seats and, with the results clearly showing that Canadians want the Liberals out of office, the two parties form a coalition government under Karygiannis’ leadership. This quickly proves to be a disaster; while Karygiannis was by all means a good campaigner and good opposition leader, he struggles in government and is unable to effectively manage his suddenly much-larger caucus. With tensions rising between Renewal and the Alliance and the government with an abysmal approval rating, Karygiannis leaves office in the summer of 2012, opting to resign before being forced out by his caucus.

With the economy in tatters, Renewal turns to former Governor of the Bank of Canada David Dodge to turn the ship around and, in a somewhat rapid fashion, he succeeds. In 2014, with a successful economic recovery having occurred under his watch, Dodge manages to win an outright majority government for Renewal at the expense of the Alliance, who drop to fifth-place as a result. However, early in his term it quickly becomes apparent that while Dodge was a great leader in an economic crisis, he’s not a great leader elsewhere. His government’s handling of the natural resources file comes under strong criticism from both the left and the right, and his decision to join the American-led intervention in Syria proves incredibly controversial and nearly provokes a split in his caucus. With his approval rating having dropped significantly, Dodge resigns in 2015, being succeeded by former Quebec Premier and current Minister of Foreign Affairs Jean Charest.

While Charest proves far more popular (and far less controversial) than Dodge, he’s unable to significantly improve the party’s polling numbers, and routinely finds himself struggling to fight back against the opposition, both from the left (predominantly the Liberals, under their new leader Joyce Murray) and the right (most notably the Alliance under Kevin O’Leary, who emerge as strong critics of the government’s economic policy). By 2018, the Liberals have been leading the polls for years, and the only question is how big they will win, and while a strong campaign from Charest gives Renewal a significant boost in the polls (largely in his home province of Quebec, where the barely bilingual Murray finds herself struggling to gain traction), it's not enough to prevent the Liberals from winning a majority government.

what even are the ideological differences between chretien and his supporters and martin and his supporters

 

[Kermode]

what even are the ideological differences between chretien and his supporters and martin and his supporters

Chrétien was on the left of the party and staunchly federalist, while Martin was on the right and more amiable to a weaker federal government. What it really comes down to, though, is a long-standing personality clash: Chrétien was the heir to Trudeau while Martin was the heir to Turner. Also, Chrétien and Martin hated each other on a personal level. That's why you got oddities like John Manley: perhaps more right-wing than Martin, yet a Chrétien loyalist.

 

[True Grit]

what even are the ideological differences between chretien and his supporters and martin and his supporters

@conchobhar pretty much covered it, though I’d add that Martin seemed to attract more of the social conservatives within the Liberal caucus (which is basically how Renewal differentiates itself until the PC influx).