linguistics question

[phildup]

I have no real knowledge of linguistics and need input to resolve a growing question in my TL, The Horse and The Jaguar.

I have group of people living on the plains centered in Texas. These are my linguistic influences;

1. The dominant political and military force is a dwindling group of Mongol (I know, if you haven't followed along this is going to raise hackles, but that is where they are) warriors, all men, who have wives mostly from the Ngobe people of Panama (someone out there just passed out). Languages are Mongolian and Ngäbere, a part of the Chibchan language family.
2. The numerically superior Wazhazhe (Osage) who live near and among the Mongol / Ngobe. Their language is part of the Siouan family.
3. These two peoples live in a mutually reliant relationship and in very close proximity. There is intermarriage between the Mongol / Ngobe and the Wazhazhe.
4. The dominant culture in the region is a member of the Mississippean cultural group, the Caddo, whose language, Caddoan, is the basis of its own language family.
5. Internal preassures are;
   1. Mongol elite (Ngäbere as a second language)and their largely Ngobe wives (Mongolian as second language) and their mixed children (bi-lingual)
   2. A partially developed trade language or pidgin based on Mongolian and Caddoan (from early contact with the Caddo) Many of the Mongols speak passable Caddoan and / or Wazhazhe.
   3. Wazhazhe partners with which the Mongol / Ngobe culture (such as it is) is blending. Some of these people are passable in Mongolian.

The Mongol / Ngobe / Wazhazhe partnership is becoming dominant in the region but the Mongols are dying out. Mongolian is still the language of the powerful, i.e. the court language. The Caddoans are less of a factor than in the recent past as their power and influence has been greatly diminished by a civil war.

How might these disparate languages coalesce? which might become dominant?

My inclination is that the Wazhazhe language of the majority would come to dominate with strong influences from Mongolian and lesser Ngäbere and Caddoan influence.

Any ideas, thoughts or comments?

 

[Falecius]

In linguistics, the rule of thumb is that what mothers speak is what children acquire the most, so the second generation will likely speak more Ngabere than Mongolian, although it will be significantly influenced by Mongolian especially in lexical items. A deeply restructured creole might form (there are documented cases) with a largely Mongolian lexicon in a Ngabere grammar. It may become the superstratal language to a creolizing form of Wazhezhe as time goes on.

 

[zoomar]

Wow. That's a real mashup, and without knowing when this is all suppposed to be happening, it's hard to say. Frankly, though, for central Texas I think you are overvaluing the importance of the Osage and undervaluing the Caddoan-speakers who are not only resident in large numbers but are part of a powerful regional religious-economic complex extending throughout eastern North America. If it were me I'd make your Mongol/Chibchen intruders adapt to the Caddoan language and culture (and by extension the broader Southeastern Complex), not the Osage. In fact, I'd probably ditch the Osage altigether unless there is some plot device you need to have them there in large numbers

 

[phildup]

In linguistics, the rule of thumb is that what mothers speak is what children acquire the most, so the second generation will likely speak more Ngabere than Mongolian, although it will be significantly influenced by Mongolian especially in lexical items. A deeply restructured creole might form (there are documented cases) with a largely Mongolian lexicon in a Ngabere grammar. It may become the superstratal language to a creolizing form of Wazhezhe as time goes on.

So you are saying that the developing language might be one that is largely based on Ngabere (grammatically and for primary vocabulary) but heavily laced with Mongolian derived words and colloquialisms.

This could come to dominate Wazhazhe which might wither (for lack of a better word) leaving linguistic artifacts (some words, perhaps tonality or rhythm?) within the new language.

Am I understanding your thoughts correctly?

 

[phildup]

Wow. That's a real mashup, and without knowing when this is all suppposed to be happening, it's hard to say. Frankly, though, for central Texas I think you are overvaluing the importance of the Osage and undervaluing the Caddoan-speakers who are not only resident in large numbers but are part of a powerful regional religious-economic complex extending throughout eastern North America. If it were me I'd make your Mongol/Chibchen intruders adapt to the Caddoan language and culture (and by extension the broader Southeastern Complex), not the Osage. In fact, I'd probably ditch the Osage altigether unless there is some plot device you need to have them there in large numbers

Wellllll...They are already there. I extrapolated from the Osage displacement by the Iroquoians and brought them into the picture as a refugee population. They are an integral part of "Mongol" power and influence. Can't ditch them.

The current time-frame is about 1330. The dates for the Osage expulsion from their homelands fit the period from my research.

The Caddo were the major power and influence in earlier stages of the TL but the impact and influences resulting from the arrival of the Mongol / Ngobe, technological and economic, led to changes which resulted in what amounts to a civil war. Their power as a political, military and economic force has been greatly reduced, although they are indeed the largest cultural group in the region.

I note the OK location, so I expect you know who and what the Caddo are and were. Then I looked at your profile and your input is even more appreciated...don't be too hard on me though.

 

[zoomar]

the region.

I note the OK location, so I expect you know who and what the Caddo are and were.

Quite. And in OTL, semi-sedentary Caddoan-speakers (Caddo proper, Wichita, Pawnee, Mandan, etc) pretty much dominated the Southern and Central Plains in the general period you are talking about, while the Osage were only an ephereral presence via raiding and slaving into Oklahoma and Texas. But your TL introduces so many obvious cultural and technological changes in to the area that I suppose just about anything is possible.

I guess I need to read your TL.

 

[phildup]

Quite. And in OTL, semi-sedentary Caddoan-speakers (Caddo proper, Wichita, Pawnee, Mandan, etc) pretty much dominated the Southern and Central Plains in the general period you are talking about, while the Osage were only an ephereral presence via raiding and slaving into Oklahoma and Texas. But your TL introduces so many obvious cultural and technological changes in to the area that I suppose just about anything is possible.

I guess I need to read your TL.

(My emphasis) Be Gentle

 

[Ciryatur]

If Mongolian is the court language, then a lot of the legal and warfare related terms will probably lean heavily that way. On the other hand, domestic terms will be adapted from Wazhazhe and to a smaller degree Ngäbere, and any agricultural(with the exception of the horse) and economic terms will probably be heavily influenced by Caddoan.

 

[Falecius]

So you are saying that the developing language might be one that is largely based on Ngabere (grammatically and for primary vocabulary) but heavily laced with Mongolian derived words and colloquialisms.

This could come to dominate Wazhazhe which might wither (for lack of a better word) leaving linguistic artifacts (some words, perhaps tonality or rhythm?) within the new language.

Am I understanding your thoughts correctly?

This is a quite possible outcome, yes. However, how much Wazhazhe remains depends a lot to factors such as the degree of intermarriage, the respective demographics, and the prestige involved. A lot of syntax is likely to be based on Wazhazhe I think.

 

[phildup]

This is a quite possible outcome, yes. However, how much Wazhazhe remains depends a lot to factors such as the degree of intermarriage, the respective demographics, and the prestige involved. A lot of syntax is likely to be based on Wazhazhe I think.

The Wazhazhe are the majority and intermarriage will be increasing greatly in the coming years, but it would be between the Wazhazhe and the mixed blood offspring of Mongol / Ngobe unions.

 

[Falecius]

The Wazhazhe are the majority and intermarriage will be increasing greatly in the coming years, but it would be between the Wazhazhe and the mixed blood offspring of Mongol / Ngobe unions.

Fair enough. Prestige is a major factor here. The general trend is can see is creolization all the way, but the point is probably which language the mothers speak.
I guess that in your scenario, the elite might be speaking a heavily Mongolian-influenced form of a creole based on Wazhazhe grammar and Nagabe (sp?) lexicon. Commoners would likely use a more or less Wazhazhe variety with a lot of external influence from all sides.
The end result is likely to have a lot of diastratic difference.

Did the Mongols bring writing with them, and if so, which form of it?

 

[phildup]

Fair enough. Prestige is a major factor here. The general trend is can see is creolization all the way, but the point is probably which language the mothers speak.
I guess that in your scenario, the elite might be speaking a heavily Mongolian-influenced form of a creole based on Wazhazhe grammar and Nagabe (sp?) lexicon. Commoners would likely use a more or less Wazhazhe variety with a lot of external influence from all sides.
The end result is likely to have a lot of diastratic difference.

Did the Mongols bring writing with them, and if so, which form of it?

The Mongols were the failed Yuan invasion force sent by Kubli Khan to subdue Java in 1293. Initially they were a polyglot force dominated by Mongol and Chinese. Some Buddhist monks made it to Texas.

The 'Phags-pa script devised under the direction of Kublai would be the standard. I believe it was phonetic and might lend itself to non asian languages as a suitable script, more so than pictographic scripts, which I think would include Chinese writing systems.