Lincoln chooses Seward as VP in 1864?

[Gryphon]

I know about the reasons why Johnson was chosen- he brought in the votes from the other half of the country that might've gone to McClellan- but let's say, just for the sake of argument, that Lincoln picks his secretary of state, William Seward, to become his running mate (perhaps placating the War Democrats by putting Johnson as SecState?). Let's further assume that they won, and that Lincoln is assassinated roughly as OTL, but Seward is not stabbed, and becomes President shortly thereafter.

One of the biggest problems Johnson faced was that he was a Democrat in a very highly Republican government. There was also the problem of conflicting views and plans- Thaddeus Stevens, Charles Sumner, Stellaberger, Johnson, Sherman, and Lincoln all had different views, and each had their proponents and detractors. Seward, to my understanding, seems quite likely to try to keep as much of Lincoln's plans in play as he could (he was quite loyal to Lincoln), and seems more likely to pull it off than Johnson would have been- what with being a Republican and all- but the revenge motivation would have still been quite strong fro the Republicans, so I suspect Seward would have had difficulties dealing with Congress. Of course, since many of the Republicans in Congress probably respected Seward (seeing as he was one of the bigger Republican players in the Senate prior to the War), so there's that in his favour.

This, however, is basically the limit of my knowledge, so I put it to you, AH.com, how would the post-Civil War era look with President Seward at the helm?

 

[WeisSaul]

Considering Seward was a firm believer in the idea that the United States should expand as much as possible, there would be a bit more expansion through spending to say the least. He wasn't much of a jingoist or an interventionist.

Seward would have gone with the Alaska purchase as normal for starters. He'd probably try to push for whole Aleutian island chain and a bit of Chukotka. He'd keep North Borneo in 1865. He was a big supporter of buying the Danish virgin islands, so he'd probably buy those too. He'd probably do whatever he could to keep Liberia from seceding too. He'd have pushed for the annexation of the Dominican republic as the state of Santo Domingo. Greenland was also pretty high up on his list, though Denmark probably wouldn't sell. Even if they did, it'd be for a massive price, but Seward may have done it anyway. Seward probably would have also pushed for a purchase of Baja California, Sonora, and perhaps Chihuahua. Seward in OTL pushed for an annexation of Panama and Hawaii, and under his recommendation the US annexed the brook Islands (midway atoll). He was pretty big on annexing unstable places that would benefit American security. He also figured British Colombia and Vancouver would join the US instead of the Canadian confederation. He'd probably have pushed for it, though I'm not so sure how well that would have worked out.

In the short term he'd be looked upon as a president who had serious spending issues and likely ruined the reserve. In the long run, the benefits from annexing said territories would make history see him as a beneficial leader. Dominican and virgin sugar, Alaskan gold, and Sonoran gold would pay off what was spent. Hawaii, midway, the aleutians, and Liberia would prove to be good naval bases and coaling stations. North Borneo would end up as a coaling station, a cash crop plantation, and an early means of expanding Americn influence in Asia. Panama's benefits are obvious and Baja would secure the mouth of the Colorado, along with giving America the port of Cabo San Lucas.

 

[Fabilius]

I for one don´t think buying Greenland would be all that beneficial

Also keeping Liberia is opening a can of worms...

 

[iori]

Seward would have gone with the Alaska purchase as normal for starters. He'd probably try to push for whole Aleutian island chain and a bit of Chukotka. He'd keep North Borneo in 1865.

While it might be possible to get the Commander Islands, gaining any of mainland territory is ASB, especially considering that it was only Alaska being purchased, and the Eurasian Mainland was never at any point considered part of or administered by Russian Alaska.

He was a big supporter of buying the Danish virgin islands, so he'd probably buy those too.

That's not really assured, we did actually try to buy them in the 1860's IOTL, but it never went through, I'd say overall he has a 60% chance getting them.

He'd probably do whatever he could to keep Liberia from seceding too.

Liberia can't secede as it was never part of the United States to begin with, and that aside it was officially recognized as an Independent country by the United States in 1847.

He'd have pushed for the annexation of the Dominican republic as the state of Santo Domingo.

The PoD may very well butterfly away the situation that lead to the Dominican President proposing it, plus don't forget that the President can't just annex things, the Congress has to approve of it, and IOTL the Congress rejected it, and without an earlier PoD I don't see how he could get the Congress to agree in 1870.

Greenland was also pretty high up on his list, though Denmark probably wouldn't sell. Even if they did, it'd be for a massive price, but Seward may have done it anyway.

The only way he could have done it would be by invading and annexing it, thus pissing off Europe, which at the time was more than capable of doing alot of damage, both economic and physical to the United States.

Seward probably would have also pushed for a purchase of Baja California, Sonora, and perhaps Chihuahua.

Less ASB than Liberia and Chukotka, but still ASB, unless of course Seward plans to go to start and Imperialistic War of Aggression with Mexico, since their's no way in hell Mexico would sell, hell the only time in history since the Mexican-American War that any part of Mexico has been offered was in the early 20th century, and at the time Mexico was in the middle of the beginnings of a Revolution/Civil War and the President's actions would have been declared illigitimate.

Seward in OTL pushed for an annexation of Panama and Hawaii, and under his recommendation the US annexed the brook Islands (midway atoll). He was pretty big on annexing unstable places that would benefit American security.

He might be able to start a chain of events that lead to earlier Hawaiian annexation, but at the time the European interests in the islands and the fact it was still ruled by Hawaiians would prevent its annexation.

To annex Panama would require a War with Colombia, since they certainly were'nt going to sell it, hell even IOTL Panama itself was only a Protectorate, with only the Canal Zone being American territory.

He also figured British Colombia and Vancouver would join the US instead of the Canadian confederation. He'd probably have pushed for it, though I'm not so sure how well that would have worked out.

It would'nt happen, period.

 

[Johnrankins]

While it might be possible to get the Commander Islands, gaining any of mainland territory is ASB, especially considering that it was only Alaska being purchased, and the Eurasian Mainland was never at any point considered or administered by Russian Alaska.




That's not really assured, we did actually try to buy them in the 1860's IOTL, but it never went through, I'd say overall he has a 60% chance getting them.




Liberia can't secede as it was never part of the United States to begin with, and that aside it was officially recognized as an Independent country by the United States in 1847.




The PoD may very well butterfly away the situation that lead to the Dominican President proposing it, plus don't forget that the President can't just annex things, the Congress has to approve of it, and IOTL the Congress rejected it, and without an earlier PoD I don't see how he could get the Congress to agree in 1870.




The only way he could have done it would be by invading and annexing it, thus pissing off Europe, which at the time was more than capable of doing alot of damage, both economic and physical to the United States.




Less ASB than Liberia and Chukotka, but still ASB, unless of course Seward plans to go to start and Imperialistic War of Aggression with Mexico, since their's no way in hell Mexico would sell, hell the only time in history since the Mexican-American War that any part of Mexico has been offered was in the early 20the century, and at the time Mexico was in the middle of the beginnings of a Revolution/Civil War and the President's actions would have been declared illigitimate.




He might be able to start a chain of events that lead to earlier Hawaiian annexation, but at the time the European interests in the islands and the fact it was still ruled by Hawaiians would prevent its annexation.

To annex Panama would require a War with Colombia, since they certainly were'nt going to sell it, hell even IOTL Panama itself was only a Protectorate, with only the Canal Zone being American territory.




It would'nt happen, period.

Agreed, Seward may want a lot of things that doesn't mean Congress will go along. The real POD is why Lincoln choses Seward. Seward was a fairly Radical Republican who came up with the "Higher Law" concept. They most likely reason for Lincoln to pick a Radical Republican is that he offended them somehow and is doing so to placate them. What he does to piss them off so much is an interesting question.

 

[Gryphon]

It would'nt happen, period.

Perhaps, perhaps not- during the big BC gold rushes a decade earlier, many Americans showed up, and many on both sides thought that BC might end up under Americans' charge, and eventually becoming a territory/state- something that would have sparked a large incident, especially given the ambiguous nature of some of the other territory (San Jaun Islands, Point Roberts).

That was well after the Oregon Treaty was set up- it's certainly possible, though very unlikely, for a similar incident to occur in the mid-1860s that might give the US the same sort of situation. So I'm not really going to agree that it wouldn't happen at all when it nearly happened eight years earlier.

Anyway, beyond all this talk of annexation, what about Reconstruction? How would that have been handled?

 

[double7double]

Perhaps, perhaps not- during the big BC gold rushes a decade earlier, many Americans showed up, and many on both sides thought that BC might end up under Americans' charge, and eventually becoming a territory/state- something that would have sparked a large incident, especially given the ambiguous nature of some of the other territory (San Jaun Islands, Point Roberts).

That was well after the Oregon Treaty was set up- it's certainly possible, though very unlikely, for a similar incident to occur in the mid-1860s that might give the US the same sort of situation. So I'm not really going to agree that it wouldn't happen at all when it nearly happened eight years earlier.

Anyway, beyond all this talk of annexation, what about Reconstruction? How would that have been handled?

A" friend is the same on that has eneamies you have"Abraham Lincoln

 

[iori]

Perhaps, perhaps not- during the big BC gold rushes a decade earlier, many Americans showed up, and many on both sides thought that BC might end up under Americans' charge, and eventually becoming a territory/state- something that would have sparked a large incident, especially given the ambiguous nature of some of the other territory (San Jaun Islands, Point Roberts).

That was well after the Oregon Treaty was set up- it's certainly possible, though very unlikely, for a similar incident to occur in the mid-1860s that might give the US the same sort of situation. So I'm not really going to agree that it wouldn't happen at all when it nearly happened eight years earlier.

Certainly it could have with a PoD before then, but by the time period we're talking about, that being 1865 onwards it's just not going to happen, especially when you consider Canada formed in 1867 with the purpose of uniting all of British North America and B.C. joined in 1871.

Anyway, beyond all this talk of annexation, what about Reconstruction? How would that have been handled?

If he can get a Radical congress and/or a Supreme Court to agree maybe one of those proposals to re-organize the ex-CSA under the idea that they'd forefitted their right/status as states and were now Territories?