Let's Say This: What If Hitler had...

[Saladin]

1. Bombers soften up targets.

2. NAval fleet takes on Royal Navy.

3. Invasion begins, on transport ships... Not Rhine Barges.

4. A rush for cities.

The problems with this are as follows:

1) The bombers get shot to pieces by the RAF

The Path of the Battle of Britain in OTL show us that the RAF was able
to prevent the level of air superiority the Luftwaffe would need to be
able to "Soften up targets" the way you suggest

2) The Royal Navy then turns the Kriegsmarine into so much scrap metal

Because the Luftwaffe and RAF are disputing air superiority they cant
provide the combat air cover needed to keep the Kriegsmarine in
being. In the surface combats in Norway, the RN managed to get a
very beneficial exchange rate in the light craft actions; and the last
thing the Kriegsmaine can cope with is a battle of attrition

3) Invasion begins, on transport ships... Not Rhine Barges.

The Transport ships suffer massive losses because the RN is still in
being. Perhaps a few arrive in the Channel portts, but they get seized
in the ports by the British defence forces.

4) A rush for cities

Well, that is just a non-starter, sorry

 

[Karlos]

Hmm. More U-Boat at the start and a decent Luftwaffe naval-arm could have starved the british in 1940, but I guess the best german option is political peace achieved just after the fall of France. You need to remove Churchill from power to do so, either phisically or politicaly.
Regarding the USSR, Barbarrosa was good in timing. Before, the germans were not ready. Later, the soviets were too ready. But Hitler failed in keeping the focus. If Moscow had fallen in august 1941, when it was poorly defended, the germans could have won the war. After that, they needed a miracle.
IMHO, those were the two only real chances for a german victory. Other options could make the Reich survive through military stalemate.

 

[Max Sinister]

I've heard of NAzi Germany planning to bobm England with MOLTEN CHOCOLATE for God's sake.

Can you tell me where you read that?

 

[Scomerger]

Pyle, I pose you a more important question: what would have happened if Hitler had actually listened to his generals more? Very different WWII ending, I suspect.

 

[Saladin]

Pyle, I pose you a more important question: what would have happened if Hitler had actually listened to his generals more? Very different WWII ending, I suspect.

Different in what sense? My interpretation of the war is such that As long as the geo-political decisions remain the same then the end result would not be significantly different.Maybe the advice of the professionals would make resistance more effective. In wich case would the US and UK use nukes on Germany?

The only genuinely significant changes would occur if hitler decided *not* to invade Russia -- given the beliefs in Mein Kampf I honestly cannot see that happening

 

[schrammy]

as i am sure i have already mentioned in 1 or 2 threads before. i think for germany to get britain to sue for peace (far from unconditional) sealion wouldn't have to be a total succes.

imagine this the luftwaffe doesn't exedently bomb london (witch was a random chance thingy) and contineu on to drive fighter command from sections 10 and 11 if i remember correctly.

now the scalled down operation sealion begins with german paratroops and those big transportplanes manageing to come trough mosly unopposed and the first wave of german transport vessels landing with relatively few losses they manage to take a port or 2. and the luftwaffe and the kriegsmarine have managed to delay the rolynavy long enough to make sure that the transports get back home.

over the next 2 or 3 days some more german troops mange to land but not nearly enough for a push against london but the british because they lack the tanks and heavy weapons and air superiority (for now) are not able to drive the germans out.

in and around the channel the situation looks grim the RN have 2 dozend ships already mostly smaller once and more are damaged same goes for the kriegs marine but they also have suffered heavy losses to there transport fleet altough most where damaged rather than sunk and those how where sunk not all slodiers where lost as they where resuced by a warships or uboots still looses on the german site are un acceptable high and the invasion is going to fail within the next week unless a miracle happens but no one dares to tell hitler (atleast not yet)

so this senario above describes realisticaly how sealion could have gone if things where mostly favorable for the germans altough i try to keep in touch with reality, now at this point in time churchill's goverment was all but rock sollid i could verry well imagine that if the military situation was misinterpreted
on the british side that his goverment could fall and that lord halifax would become new PM of britain his first action no doudt would be to negotiate a peace with hitler, witch is basicaly all that the later wanted so halifax would probarly have a rather easy time brokering out a deal that was acceptable for britain.

so you see for sealion to be a succes on has to clearly define what its objectives are if you would ask the general staff OKW they probarly tell you the succesfull invasion of britain witch i agree is not possible, but if you ask hitler i think he just wanted peace with britain to avoid a 2 front war and that objective might be achivable (still not verry likely but not impossible)

 

[Wozza]

What if Hitler had done these?
-Been less, well, insane. Stil la Nazi and a political lunatic in my eyes ,but had more sound combat strategies.

Do you have any in particular?

-Had ran the economy better. So it WOULDN'T have collapsed in 1940 if they wouldn't have went to war.

The German economy was not going to collapse, there were just problems with the sustainability of the arms programme.
The Germans went to war in 1939 because timing was good, any later and they might have lost their lead.

-Managed R & D much better. I've heard of NAzi Germany planning to bobm England with MOLTEN CHOCOLATE for God's sake. The Maus and Dora and stuff could go too, maybe even the Panther. They should have put Panzer Glass in their Messcherscmitt airplanes earlier as well. There's plenty of projects that needed to go, the Sturmtigers, et cetera...

In fact the German record on poor R&D prioritisation is not too bad in comparative terms

He invaded in June, winter has passed by then, even in Russia.

-Used all these funds freed up from ridiculous R & D to go into atomic bombs and jet aircraft.

He would have had a half finished atom bomb project.

 

[Wozza]

Pyle, I pose you a more important question: what would have happened if Hitler had actually listened to his generals more? Very different WWII ending, I suspect.

Well, either Germany would have lost in 1940 after heavy inconclusive fighting in Belgium or Army Group Centre would have collapsed in winter 41/42 and Germany would have lost by '43.

 

[Saladin]

imagine this the luftwaffe doesn't exedently bomb london (witch was a random chance thingy) and contineu on to drive fighter command from sections 10 and 11 if i remember correctly.

If 10 and 11 Groups really begin to suffer severely, 12 or 13 Group is deployed into the battle zone to take up the slack. There were already contingency plans in place to do this if needed (Allen: Who won the Battle of Britain) Net result, no change except the Luftwaffe lose an even greater percentage of trained aircrew

 

[Saladin]

now the scalled down operation sealion begins with german paratroops and those big transport planes manageing to come trough mosly unopposed and the first wave of german transport vessels landing with relatively few losses they manage to take a port or 2. and the luftwaffe and the kriegsmarine have managed to delay the rolynavy long enough to make sure that the transports get back home.

The Ju 52's carrying the paras are harvested by 12 Group and possibly 13 Group as well, inflicting massive losses. No chance of capturing a port via a coup de main even if the rest of your hypothesis strands up (it doesnt, btw)

The Royal Navy is then able to simply demolish the Kriegsmarine as the first waves of vessels sail (ahead of the air drop so there is co-ordination (cf D-Day where the troops for the beaches leave *before* the paras but arrive after)

 

[Saladin]

in and around the channel the situation looks grim the RN have 2 dozend ships already mostly smaller once and more are damaged same goes for the kriegs marine but they also have suffered heavy losses to there transport fleet altough most where damaged rather than sunk and those how where sunk not all slodiers where lost as they where resuced by a warships or uboots still looses on the german site are un acceptable high and the invasion is going to fail within the next week unless a miracle happens but no one dares to tell hitler (atleast not yet)

If you look at combat loss rates between the KM and RN, especially in the lighter catagories of vessel (destoyers, light cruisers etc) in particular during the Norway campaign, you see a loss rate *slightly* in favour of the British. The KM cannot accept thiskind of attrition rate, the RN can and would

With the RN on their tails, the KM wont have time to rescue foundering troop transports

 

[Pyth]

Can you tell me where you read that?

A WWII history book at a library around here.

As for my Revised Operation Sealion, well, perhaps Germany could gain air superiority first? And had just built more aircraft? The RAF would be difficult to defeat but if Hitler focused on them, he would have destroyed them.

As for the RN, with air superiority ships are not hard to sink. Couple in U-Boats and surface ships and well... Yeah. the RN is od, very good, but it ain't that good.

 

[luakel]

Well, for one thing, the Germans are going to be short on surface ships after Norway. Plus I don't know if they're going to be able to get U-boots in the channel... And the Stukas weren't that trained at fighting ships. The big problem with this is that if it looks like they'll be defeated, the RAF will just withdraw to the north, waiting for the invasion to make their presence known again. And you can't have planes bombing and strafing ships if they're fighting off Spitfires.

 

[Bulldawg85]

Swiss

I've heard of NAzi Germany planning to bobm England with MOLTEN CHOCOLATE for God's sake.

Wasn't that the Swiss plan for taking over Europe?

 

[At-Bari]

If Hitler wasn't so fanatical and racist he could have got some more help from the white russians and ukrainians.

 

[Nekromans]

If Arnold Schwarzenegger wasn't so Austrian, he'd be non-Austrian.

Even AH has its limits, At-Bari.

 

[Weapon M]

Wasn't that the Swiss plan for taking over Europe?

No, they were going to use cheese, I think. the plan had a lot of holes in it, though....

 

[Scomerger]

Well, either Germany would have lost in 1940 after heavy inconclusive fighting in Belgium or Army Group Centre would have collapsed in winter 41/42 and Germany would have lost by '43.

Does the invasion of the USSR occur?

 

[oberdada]

Pyle, I pose you a more important question: what would have happened if Hitler had actually listened to his generals more? Very different WWII ending, I suspect.

That would have been a POD well before 1939.

1. no remilitarisation of the Rhineland,

history takes a differnet course ...

 

[Earling]

Well, either Germany would have lost in 1940 after heavy inconclusive fighting in Belgium or Army Group Centre would have collapsed in winter 41/42 and Germany would have lost by '43.

Are you implying that not all of Germanys problems were brought about solely by Hitler?! Are you implying that not every German General was a genius of the first order!?

Are you daring to imply that the Rommel/Speer alliance would not come to rule the entire world?!