Let's create a fascist USA

[Tsochar]

Previous threads have mainly been concerned with the possibility of the rise of fascism in the US. The consensus seems to be that totalitarianism in the USA runs too counter to prevailing cultural currents. I'd like for this thread to be a bit broader in scope, detailing the lead up to the fascist or *fascist takeover, the policies enacted by the fascist government, and the eventual demise of the regime. I'd like to have this thread accomplish the following:

-Detail the social and political movements leading to the rise of fascist or *fascist sentiment
-Clarify the nature of the fascist takeover
-Provide a rough outline of the new government's constitution, either replacing or supplementing the existing US constitution
-Figure out some fascist government policies
-Determine when and how the regime collapses.

When I say fascism, it could be any extreme right-wing movement. It may be similar to German national socialism, Italian fascism, Spanish falangism, Brazilian integralism, or even the distinctly religious Austrian fascism that was overshadowed by Nazism in OTL. Given that the cultural and social landscape of every country is different, I imagine US fascism will have its own quirks and unique attributes. For convenience's sake, let's call it National Patriotism.

I think a good start would be if the US suffered a serious military defeat followed by an economic downturn. What are some wars that the US could get involved with and lose horribly?

 

[Cochlea]

Is violent revolution or civil war plausible? I have no idea what a possible takeover would look like, but I have some (obvious) ideas for the characteristics of the Fascist U.S.

- Some manner of amplification of racism. Perhaps reconciliation with groups such as the KKK in some manner? Turning them into a paramilitary wing? Perhaps not to the extent of population reduction, but something severe.
- Anticommunism
- Anticapitalistism, to a degree
- Anticatholicism

 

[Queeney]

A more subtile approach might be to have Joseph McCarthy becoming US President in the 1950s. Terrible economic decisions coupled with an inquisition-like commie craze much more severe than even IOTL could then lead to widespread protests against the government, which in turn gives McCarthy the needed excuse to gradually limit civil rights more and more by enacting various pieces of emergency legislation.

 

[ThatOneGuy]

We could have the Business Plot go through with a different leader. It may not last long but for a time there would be a Fascist USA.

 

[Brundlefly]

When I say fascism, it could be any extreme right-wing movement. It may be similar to German national socialism, Italian fascism, Spanish falangism, Brazilian integralism, or even the distinctly religious Austrian fascism that was overshadowed by Nazism in OTL. Given that the cultural and social landscape of every country is different, I imagine US fascism will have its own quirks and unique attributes. For convenience's sake, let's call it National Patriotism.

I guess a genuine, homegrown version of fascism in the USA would be more Christian, but also more "anarchist", i.e. anti-statist, than the European version. Characteristics include:

- hardcore Protestantism/Evangelicalism, which also means antisemitism and anti-Catholicisism
- white supremacy and a Herbert Spencer-type of social Darwinist view of how the world functions, so economic competition equals competition between "the races"
- the state reduced to the ruling party, the armed forces and security services; the core of the latter two will be the forces that brought along fascist power (armed paramilitary groups), so if there's an American Röhm/Farinacci, he will not be ousted
- isolationism (America first!)

 

[Tsochar]

Is violent revolution or civil war plausible? I have no idea what a possible takeover would look like, but I have some (obvious) ideas for the characteristics of the Fascist U.S.

- Some manner of amplification of racism. Perhaps reconciliation with groups such as the KKK in some manner? Turning them into a paramilitary wing? Perhaps not to the extent of population reduction, but something severe.
- Anticommunism
- Anticapitalistism, to a degree

Violent revolution may or may not be possible, but it's hardly necessary. Hitler's rise may have carried implicit threats of violence, but it was by itself largely bloodless.

Regarding race relations, It's important to note that in the 1960s, the American Nazi Party and the Black Panthers were on fairly good terms. It's not hard to imagine the creation of a fully autonomous "Republic of New Afrika" in the deep south stretching from North Carolina to Louisiana, with its "fully independent" government staffed by black fascists.

Obviously, the plausibility of such a development would depend on political and social developments, but it's a possibility. It's also quite difficult to take over a country when 20% of the population could rise up against you at any time.

I think anti-semitism and anti-immigration sentiment would also be major driving forces among any American fascist party. Given that most of the active communist leaders of the era were German immigrants, it's likely that a fascist movement would target "those damn communist foreigners."

 

[Kung Fucious]

We could have the Business Plot go through with a different leader. It may not last long but for a time there would be a Fascist USA.

Maybe they approach George van Horn Moseley instead of Smedley Butler?

 

[Iggies]

It's not hard to imagine the creation of a fully autonomous "Republic of New Afrika" in the deep south stretching from North Carolina to Louisiana, with its "fully independent" government staffed by black fascists.

Wouldn't that go over...horribly with the white inhabitants of Dixie?

As in immediate horrific ethnic warfare?

 

[Tsochar]

Wouldn't that go over...horribly with the white inhabitants of Dixie?

As in immediate horrific ethnic warfare?

When I say "stretching from North Carolina to Louisiana," think less of a single consolidated blob and more of the fragmented enclaves of South Africa's Bantustans. Only the areas with very, very heavy black population would be included.

 

[Cochlea]

Violent revolution may or may not be possible, but it's hardly necessary. Hitler's rise may have carried implicit threats of violence, but it was by itself largely bloodless.

Regarding race relations, It's important to note that in the 1960s, the American Nazi Party and the Black Panthers were on fairly good terms. It's not hard to imagine the creation of a fully autonomous "Republic of New Afrika" in the deep south stretching from North Carolina to Louisiana, with its "fully independent" government staffed by black fascists.

Obviously, the plausibility of such a development would depend on political and social developments, but it's a possibility. It's also quite difficult to take over a country when 20% of the population could rise up against you at any time.

I think anti-semitism and anti-immigration sentiment would also be major driving forces among any American fascist party. Given that most of the active communist leaders of the era were German immigrants, it's likely that a fascist movement would target "those damn communist foreigners."

Like Iggies said, I can only imagine that a white supremacist American fascist state would be loathe to make any concessions towards the black populace, especially at the expense of whites. Take into consideration as well that the American Nazi Party was naught but a fringe political party, if they were mainstream, and in power, they'd behave much differently towards blacks. I am imagining extreme disenfranchisement, possibly population relocation even if funds allow.

 

[wdpayne]

The USA is heading towards fascism right now.

 

[Tsochar]

The USA is heading towards fascism right now.

Please keep such comments to Chat. This is about history, not current politics.

 

[Queeney]

It's not hard to imagine the creation of a fully autonomous "Republic of New Afrika" in the deep south stretching from North Carolina to Louisiana, with its "fully independent" government staffed by black fascists.

Actually, it's very hard to imagine. A Republic of New Africa is just as likely as an independent Deseret Theocracy, or a Republic of the Plains. In fact, all of these are terrible cliches, and so deep in ASB territory that it's not even funny anymore.

 

[Tsochar]

Actually, it's very hard to imagine. A Republic of New Africa is just as likely as an independent Deseret Theocracy, or a Republic of the Plains. In fact, all of these are terrible cliches, and so deep in ASB territory that it's not even funny anymore.

My idea was more like something that an established fascist government would try late in its life to try and pacify the uppity minorities, like South Africa's Bantustans. It seems that everyone is in agreement against it, though, so into the garbage it goes.

Let's go back to the topic of potential causes for the popularization of right-wing extremism. I think that, by the time 1933 rolled around, there social atmosphere in the US wasn't conducive enough for right-wing extremism to really take root. I think we need to go farther back.

What if the US tries a major intervention in the 1910 Mexican Civil War, and really messes up big time? Suppose a Mexican rebel army marches across the border and manages to kill some civilians, and the US army launches a full-scale invasion that turns into a quagmire. Leftists in the US march against the war, and right-wing patriot paramilitaries spring up with ample public support to suppress them. I think something this could give the US enough of an anti-leftist, pro-military lean to push it over the edge later on. Maybe George Moseley could get enough commendations to rise to a higher rank in the military, as well.

 

[Tsochar]

I guess a genuine, homegrown version of fascism in the USA would be more Christian, but also more "anarchist", i.e. anti-statist, than the European version. Characteristics include:

- hardcore Protestantism/Evangelicalism, which also means antisemitism and anti-Catholicisism
- white supremacy and a Herbert Spencer-type of social Darwinist view of how the world functions, so economic competition equals competition between "the races"
- the state reduced to the ruling party, the armed forces and security services; the core of the latter two will be the forces that brought along fascist power (armed paramilitary groups), so if there's an American Röhm/Farinacci, he will not be ousted
- isolationism (America first!)

This is a very good start. There will need to be some way to reconcile anarchism and nationalism in a way that isn't completely unworkable. National-Anarchism is fairly promising, with its promotion of ethnic segregationism and tribalism, but the synthesis of the two ideologies is rare enough that it seems the idea hasn't gotten much development.

Perhaps in a fascist USA, people with German and other non-Anglo-Saxon surnames would be discriminated against?

 

[Fenwick]

To me the most effective way to accomplish this is by maintaining the 2nd Klu Klux Klan in some form. This public, open, and constant position of anti-catholic, anti-black, and pro-xenophobia. Given that the Klan saw much support in cities like Detroit, Dallas, and Atlanta there was an oddly large urban center for this group thanks to Blacks entering major cities for work.

While the first and third Klan incarnations were often rural based the second Klan was urban based. So given machine politics of the time the Klan if remaining present could be a constant source of votes for major political machines in the South and the Mid-west.

Now say Grand Dragon Stephenson never kills Madge or makes her disappear and the general surge of Klan support will still drop, but the clear position of a xenophobic, anit-communist, anti-jewish, anti-Catholic, pro-prohibition and thus anti-crime Klan would continue to hold support.

Imagine if you will a KKK soup kitchen during the Great Depression. Will it be instantly hated, or will it be seen as just another of the many political groups in America of the time? I suspect the latter.

Now a really nice slice of history, and in my opinion showing clear support for Fascism amongst a segement of the population is the pre-code film Gabriel Over the White House (1933). Here a President clearly combining Harding, and Hoover in his corruption, croonyism, and partisan politics gets into an accident and becomes a changed man. The hint is that the President is actually overtaken an angel in America's time of need. The film goes on to show that the President suspends civil rights, imposes martial law, and purges his government of all the big business leaders. Congress impeaches him? Dissolve it. Need an army? Form a new one only loyal to him. He spends billion in a new deal, and nationalizes the sale of alcohol. Mobsters fight him? Execute them following a show trial. The world may go to war? Well show everyone America has a super secret weapon and blackmail all into peace!

And the film ends with the people rising up and killing this dictator? Nope. People love him, and he solved all the world's problems.

So really there is support fo Fascism in america. it just has to be American.

 

[Tsochar]

To me the most effective way to accomplish this is by maintaining the 2nd Klu Klux Klan in some form. This public, open, and constant position of anti-catholic, anti-black, and pro-xenophobia. Given that the Klan saw much support in cities like Detroit, Dallas, and Atlanta there was an oddly large urban center for this group thanks to Blacks entering major cities for work.

While the first and third Klan incarnations were often rural based the second Klan was urban based. So given machine politics of the time the Klan if remaining present could be a constant source of votes for major political machines in the South and the Mid-west.

Now say Grand Dragon Stephenson never kills Madge or makes her disappear and the general surge of Klan support will still drop, but the clear position of a xenophobic, anit-communist, anti-jewish, anti-Catholic, pro-prohibition and thus anti-crime Klan would continue to hold support.

Imagine if you will a KKK soup kitchen during the Great Depression. Will it be instantly hated, or will it be seen as just another of the many political groups in America of the time? I suspect the latter.

Now a really nice slice of history, and in my opinion showing clear support for Fascism amongst a segement of the population is the pre-code film Gabriel Over the White House (1933). Here a President clearly combining Harding, and Hoover in his corruption, croonyism, and partisan politics gets into an accident and becomes a changed man. The hint is that the President is actually overtaken an angel in America's time of need. The film goes on to show that the President suspends civil rights, imposes martial law, and purges his government of all the big business leaders. Congress impeaches him? Dissolve it. Need an army? Form a new one only loyal to him. He spends billion in a new deal, and nationalizes the sale of alcohol. Mobsters fight him? Execute them following a show trial. The world may go to war? Well show everyone America has a super secret weapon and blackmail all into peace!

And the film ends with the people rising up and killing this dictator? Nope. People love him, and he solved all the world's problems.

Indeed. Maybe if the KKK put more of its energy into PR, it could form either the paramilitary wing or even the leading nucleus of a National Patriot Party. Perhaps if this is done in tandem with some type of pre-Depression disaster that leads to isolationism and increased pro-Americanism, it could get the necessary public support to stage a coup.

So really there is support fo Fascism in america. it just has to be American.

I'm reminded of Sinclair Lewis, "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

 

[Brundlefly]

This is a very good start. There will need to be some way to reconcile anarchism and nationalism in a way that isn't completely unworkable. National-Anarchism is fairly promising, with its promotion of ethnic segregationism and tribalism, but the synthesis of the two ideologies is rare enough that it seems the idea hasn't gotten much development.

Maybe Protestantism could be the missing link here. As you can see in the Wiki article, this type of National Anarchism was very much influenced by conservative-revolutionary, therefore more collectivist ideas (the population as one, unified mass under one ruler, this kind of thing). An American version would have to be more individualist, basically "the right to bear arms" gone bonkers. The Protestant faith becomes crucial in this ideology, with the (white) individual not being subject to a church, or a state, but only to himself and God. And the potential enemies all happen to be Catholic (immigration from Europe or later from central America), Jewish, non-white or Communist.

Murray Rothbard meets William Pearce, sort of.

 

[SRT]

I think the most obvious choice is during the Great Depression. In OTL many people thought that an American dictator would be needed to deal with the problems of the Depression, anyway.

In addition, I think that any story about American fascism should have one of its defining points be the denial of liberty as the framers of the constitution viewed it. In a very real sense they were suggesting that people (at least white males) would have the liberty to physically move about the country freely. They were not slaves or serfs and they could not be restricted from colonizing further inland by the British or Native Americans. Combining these two ideas, we have a fascist USA that responds negatively to the population transfers of the dustbowl era by enforcing regional barriers that cannot be legally crossed. So if you are a citizen of Oklahoma, you are only allowed to travel, work, and live in that general region (maybe even only within that state...)

What if, in the 1932 election, things have gotten so bad that a new "National Patriot" (or whatever spooky fascist name) party comes to power. By colluding with business & media interests, their candidate gets a lot of good press and funding and is able to upset the traditional parties. In response to the problems of the depression, rather than spending government money on new-deal type programs, they spend money on increasing their security forces. The government slowly begins to function much more like an organized crime syndicate, though in this it is not totally ineffective. Some industries are haphazardly nationalized (I like the idea from Gabriel Over the White House about nationalizing alcohol production. A national socialist USA that produces its own government-standard victory whiskey and victory cigarettes is a great image to me*).

ITTL, fascist USA could become much closer to Nazi Germany sooner. I don't think that the USA would go to the point of joining the Axis or getting involved in a major European war. I do think, as others have mentioned, that it would be deeply religious (perhaps even with a degree of theocracy? maybe separation of church and state is removed, and a council of clergy is introduced to the legislative system, outranking both the senate and the house. or maybe an Iranian-style Supreme Leader.) Antisemitism and racism in general would obviously be huge factors. Increased persecution (and perception of persecution) could cause less Jews to come to America from Germany in the interwar period. Maybe even some American Jews would begin to leave - would more people go to British Palestine, or would they go somewhere else? Egypt?

There would certainly be more, and more serious race riots in this timeline, which would be countered by (and used as a justification for) the government's increased internal security (both riot police and national guardsmen but also intelligence officers and propagandists).

One issue that I am unsure of is if fascists would increasingly federalize the USA, as some people in this thread have said, or if they would centralize it. It seems to me they might have a tendency to centralize an authoritarian government, but maybe they would rather decentralize things to local party rule. I don't know.

*Side note, how would a fascist USA view marijuana? Remember it wasn't made illegal until 1936. I don't know much about what European fascists thought about drugs beyond that they obviously didn't ban alcohol and tobacco.

 

[ChaoticBrilliance]

*Side note, how would a fascist USA view marijuana? Remember it wasn't made illegal until 1936. I don't know much about what European fascists thought about drugs beyond that they obviously didn't ban alcohol and tobacco.

"This world we live in, you need a little marijuana now and then...", a quote from American Chancellor Martin Felsing.