Deleted member 6086
Actually, I can see some of the youth directing their ire towards NASA's all-white male, mostly pilot '60s astronaut corps. Not really representative of American society.
Probably no more so than the OTL, which really wasn't that much. It existed but it wouldn't derail the space program.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otwkXZ0SmTs
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Realpolitik
Banned
Not really likely, I think. Not an issue that you can drum up a lot of anger against at the time.
[FONT="]Actually, there were three dimensions to the New Left in the sixties.[/FONT]
[FONT="]First, there was the intellectual left on campus, the SDS. They pursued a liberal agenda of civil rights and rights of workers. They wanted to reform the political system to serve the people, but would cleave and disband in 1969. [/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Second, there were the “true hippies” who intended to “turn on, tune in and drop out.” True hippies were not political liberals, but libertarians with no economic agenda. They were associated with the drug culture. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Third, there were the summer hippies, who ranged from students in protest groups, those who traveled on their free time, and those who only picked up on the dress, music and peace symbol.[/FONT]
[FONT="]When the media reported on war protests, all demonstrators were labeled “leftist.” Now, without a Vietnam War, civil rights is the major issue of protest, largely resolved in legislation in 1968. The military went all-volunteer in 1973. Without Vietnam, the same could have happened five or more years earlier. If so, there might not be a push to lower the voting age. The protests wane down. The SDS might remain intact. Summer hippies would graduate and enter the work force, as in OTL. True hippies would retire to west communes in the seventies, as in OTL. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Without Vietnam, LBJ gets reelected in 1968, but there’s a catch. He died of a massive heart attack in January, 1973. With the stress of the presidency, he may have died earlier, in 1972. No doubt, we would see a Humphrey-Muskie ticket. Would Nixon run? One thing, the death of LBJ at 64 would butterfly away Reagan’s chances of running when he might be considered “too old.”[/FONT]
You're missing the fact that the stress of his presidency with Vietnam and with the world collapsing as a result of it impacted his health, and a lack of that would only improve his health.
But without the depression of seeing his presidency end up in shambles, Johnson would not become a massive smoker and gain a bunch of weight, so he would probably live slightly longer. Also, his existing years as President would be less stressful.
Paul V McNutt
Banned
The reelected President Johnson gets to replace Chief Justice Warren and Justices Black and Harlan . jJustice Fortis stays on the court. There is a liberal Supreme Court for much longer. rRow vs Wade might establish abortion on demand. tThere would be a stronger Pro Life movement.
Well his heart attack was more due to the fact that after he left the White House (literally on the plane ride) he proclaimed he was done caring what the public or other people thought of him and began living a very unhealthy lifestyle. He took up smoking, gained 25 pounds, grew out that mullet of his from his last years. He died a 64, which was a relatively young age for the time. Without Vietnam that provided a lot of stress during his presidency, he would most likely have lived beyond he did in OTL.
Mr.Progressive
Banned
Johnson killed himself, after he left the White House he did nothing but smoke, eat, and drink. He stopped caring for his body, seeing his weight gain and growing his hair out.
Without Vietnam or the Riots, no depression. If he is successful, he has his energy and will to live. So no self-harm. He can easily live past 1973. 64 is young even then.
Without Vietnam, he wins easily in 1968. He gets UHC passed easily, and no Vietnam means more money and better economy.
That means more space missions! And if he is successful, then Robert Kennedy won't run against him.
So he lives to see another day!
Yeah, I think the American New Left will look something like West Germany's without the war. Heavily environmentalist, they also might catch onto more Situationism or Autonomism rather than Maoism (maybe, it's hard to say). Could see the Yippies digging that.
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So, Johnson finishes his second full term in 1973. You trade four years of a chosen unhealty lifestyle for four years of stress as president. How much marginal stress did the war bring, especially in the early years? He was not at odds with congress on the issue. The public did not question the validity of the war until late 1965 or 1966. Protests did not emerge until 1967 and 1968. When he retires in 1973, what is to say that he does not throw his health out the window then? Say he dies before he turns 70 in 1978. My original point remains valid: the stigma of age blocks Reagan's chances of a first term run in 1980.
I think that there would have been more attention paid to the rest of the world; would the US have sat back and watched what was going on in Czechoslovakia in 1968? What about the Chola incident in 1967? What about the Libyan coup in 1969 that brought Qadaffi to power?
I can't help thinking we may have focused more US attention and power toward West Berlin. The Cold War would have been much more in our minds when we didn't have the distraction of Viet Nam.
I can't help thinking we may have focused more US attention and power toward West Berlin. The Cold War would have been much more in our minds when we didn't have the distraction of Viet Nam.
Realpolitik
Banned
Lyndon Johnson was a very domestic policy based President. His big interest was the Great Society along with Civil Rights. He did not like or want to be bothered with foreign policy, which in part led to Vietnam being so disastrous. "Foreign policy is like a bad head cold-you want to get it over with as quickly as possible." Rather the opposite of his predecessor and successor.
Actually, there is an interesting possible butterfly here. First off, in 1971, Nixon signed the Berlin Quadripartite Treaty with Brezhnev which removed Berlin as a flashpoint in the Cold War and paved the way to SALT I the next year. Without said treaty, it's possible that Berlin remains a potential issue. Which is a problem... Johnson was semi-interested in the idea of better relations with the Soviet Union and tried to build the first building blocks of it(Glassboro conference), but he just did not have the same interest or capability or political capital that Nixon did in foreign policy, and Vietnam was a sticking point along with the Soviet Union gaining nuclear parity. And then the Six Day War came, and we had a bit of a scare there. Detente was in part prompted by the Soviet Union getting nuclear parity and it becoming increasingly obvious in the Politburo and the Nixon administration that sooner or later, somebody on some side was going to take things too far, and the boiling pot of water will spill-the US-Soviet relationship had to become, if not friendly, more NORMAL and have clearly defined parameters and limits for national interests. Part of the prompting for detente was Vietnam, in conjunction with other factors such as nuclear parity and for Moscow, their rivalry with the Chinese, their intenral structural weaknesses, and concerns about the Middle East and the Eastern Bloc. In sum, detente had a lot of factors going for it, but Vietnam, and having Richard Nixon in power, was quite crucial on our end. What happens if Johnson can't go about any of this? Johnson probably would not use the "secret channel" method, and that would probably be a problem. Might we see another crisis in Europe?
The Chola crisis probably wouldn't change. Relationships with India cooled off since the Kennedy heydays during the Sino-Indian War, but Johnson was still India-aligned against the Chinese. Nixon was the one who shifted to China/Pakistan over India/Russia(relatively speaking).
As for the Prague Spring, the US and the West in general were wracked with utter turmoil in 1968-we had students at home that wanted to import the Cultural Revolution here, which considering what was happening to the students in Prague, was very... interesting(or not. They were going for the Chinese model more than the Soviet one). With the state of the US in 1968 and the reality of Vietnam, we couldn't really do anything. The Soviets at that point were not interested in dealing with Johnson, at all. Without Vietnam, it's possible that our thinking would be far more "Europe-based".
On a more positive note, I'd love to see what Johnson would do with space.
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Realpolitik
Banned
Men from the Johnson family-and old style rural Central Texas in general-weren't known for their long lifespans. This is part of why Johnson was a workaholic and dedicated his life to the "arena"-he always thought he wouldn't live long, and was utterly determined to live each day like his last, and leave a mark.
But that being said, Johnson really tried to take better care of himself as President. Gave up smoking and tried to eat healthier. After he left office OTL, he basically stopped caring, decided that he was going to live for himself and himself alone, and committed slow motion suicide. He said he didn't want to linger around like Eisenhower did. It's about motivation.
Deleted member 6086
I think Johnson was a genuine space enthusiast, unlike Nixon and even Kennedy, who mostly seemed to care about it for its political benefits. It's obvious that Apollo-level funding would have to be brought down quickly (NASA's budget peaked as early as '68, in fact), but just a little more resources could have made a big difference. At least a couple more Apollo missions could have happened easily without Vietnam.
When did the Shuttle concept take shape? I remember that Nixon approved it, so ITTL it might turn out differently, or not happen at all (not to steal from Eyes Turned Skywards, one of my favourite timelines)
When did the Shuttle concept take shape? I remember that Nixon approved it, so ITTL it might turn out differently, or not happen at all (not to steal from Eyes Turned Skywards, one of my favourite timelines)
Realpolitik
Banned
Johnson really, really was authentically interested in space, I believe. To be fair, in part like everyone else, because of the Soviets, but he also I think really thought big about these kinds of things. In 1957, he created the giant controversy over Sputnik, forcing a skeptical Eisenhower to pay attention to it. The fact that it gave a lot of funding to Texas didn't hurt none.
Johnson was basically in charge of space policy as VP-he was a very effective manager, and Kennedy kept the Apollo program alive at first in deference to him, before Kennedy grew into a space enthusiast himself. Unfortunately, Vietnam in tandem with the Great Society (which itself would run into funding problems) really hollowed out the amount of money that could be given to it. Everybody lauds Kennedy for inspiring it(correctly), but without Johnson to execute it and give NASA the pork, they'd be screwed.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/396/1
I think that Johnson being there in 1969 at the launching was very appropriate.
I think the shuttle concept, as well as the idea of joint Soviet-American missions(Apollo-Soyuz), was cooked up by Nixon, but you'll want to confirm that. Nixon was really enthusiastic about space as VP-he regarded Sputnik as a sign of failure for America, and supported Johnson over his boss-but by the time he was President, he wasn't so much anymore for a hodgepodge of reasons ranging from economic/cost problems to different interests to jealousy towards Kennedy. I can never forgive him for cutting funding for a Mars mission.
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I don't see how you can draw ire over NASA not being representative enough in the same way as the Vietnam War did. It's not like their harming anybody?
Honestly, I think the "New Left" and anti-establishment/status quo youth movement will just be prevented a few years but I'd imagine if a notable conservative such as Reagan gets elected, I'd imagine that's where they'd put their anger towards. Maybe similar to Thatcher and the left wing groups over in Britain during the 80's.
You're point probably remains valid, I was just saying Johnson wasn't going to drop dead in the Presidency around the same time. He was very motivated to remain as healthy as he could. Humphrey would probably get the nomination due being supported by, what I would assume, a moderately popular President and the dictator of the Democratic party.
Yeah, his friends and aides pretty much described it as an elongated suicide. I can't help but feel sorry for him during his later years. The man just wallowed in his fall.
Deleted member 6086
Johnson really, really was authentically interested in space, I believe. To be fair, in part like everyone else, because of the Soviets, but he also I think really thought big about these kinds of things. In 1957, he created the giant controversy over Sputnik, forcing a skeptical Eisenhower to pay attention to it. The fact that it gave a lot of funding to Texas didn't hurt none.
Johnson was basically in charge of space policy as VP-he was a very effective manager, and Kennedy kept the Apollo program alive at first in deference to him, before Kennedy grew into a space enthusiast himself. Unfortunately, Vietnam in tandem with the Great Society (which itself would run into funding problems) really hollowed out the amount of money that could be given to it. Everybody lauds Kennedy for inspiring it(correctly), but without Johnson to execute it and give NASA the pork, they'd be screwed.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/396/1
I think that Johnson being there in 1969 at the launching was very appropriate.
I think the shuttle concept, as well as the idea of joint Soviet-American missions(Apollo-Soyuz), was cooked up by Nixon, but you'll want to confirm that. Nixon was really enthusiastic about space as VP-he regarded Sputnik as a sign of failure for America, and supported Johnson over his boss-but by the time he was President, he wasn't so much anymore for a hodgepodge of reasons ranging from economic/cost problems to different interests to jealousy towards Kennedy. I can never forgive him for cutting funding for a Mars mission.
I don't have sources for any of this and you're much better-informed than me on the era, so I happily refer to you
.
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