Latest possible PoD to restore Egyptian religion?

[PolishMagnet]

What is the latest possible PoD for some form of Egyptian religion to be restored/founded (in Egypt, of course)?

It must be an Egyptian religion involving worship of at least one native Egyptian deity IE Ra, Set, Isis, Osiris, etc, not a syncretic religion like Hellenism and not a composite religion ie Islamic offshoot recognizing Ra as a manifestation of Allah or something.

 

[Magnum]

By the time the Sassanids conquered Egypt, the ancient Egyptian religion had been thoroughly beaten into the dirt by Roman authorities, mostly during the reign of Theodosius. The last holdout was in a temple at the border with Nubia, where diplomatic considerations kept the place open, and even there, the last inscription was in the mid 5th century, and the place finally closed down by Justinian.

Graffito of Esmet-Akhom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The last known inscription from Philae to mention any pagan religious activity is from the exterior wall of the temple of Isis. Dated to 456/457, the preserved portion of this damaged inscription reads "when Smet was archprophet, Pasnous, son of Pakhumios, was first president of the cult association".[14] Based on the names recorded in the different late inscriptions, it appears that many of the writers were part of the same family;[12][14] it is unclear whether the late worship of the Egyptian deities extended outside of this single family.[14]

From the late fourth century onwards there had also been Christian churches on the same island as the temple.[20] The temple was finally closed at some point between 535 and 537, when Emperor Justinian I (r. 527–565) ordered it to be closed and its priests to be imprisoned, sending the general Narses to retrieve its statues to take them to Constantinople.[11] By this time, the temple was probably staffed by a very small number of individuals and no longer supported by any significant southern geopolitical entity, with these lands now mostly being Christianized

The only way I see to keep the ancient Egyptian religion going is to prevent Rome from going fully Christian

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Does it count if Rome commits to Isis worship? She's an originally Egyptian deity and her cult maintained many Egyptian features in Apuleius, even if a lot of the archaeology suggests she was heavily syncretised with pretty much every Greek goddess.

 

[Hearkener]

The Egyptian religion(s) were fine until Rome began to lean heavily into Christianization. This was also the time that Hieroglyphics were finally abandoned because of their association with paganism. After a few generations, the Egyptians became unable to even read their old holy texts.

 

[Lalli]

Agree. Avoid rise of Christianity and then you can revive Ancient Egyptian religion. It was in good condition yet on days of Cosntantine the Great. So if you just take POD of 1st or 2nd century it should be quiet easy.

 

[Kerney]

Agree. Avoid rise of Christianity and then you can revive Ancient Egyptian religion. It was in good condition yet on days of Cosntantine the Great. So if you just take POD of 1st or 2nd century it should be quiet easy.

3rd or Early 4th century conceivably could do it. But one thing I get is that opinions on the rise of Christianity run the gamut between 'inevitable' to 'give Julian fifteen years, an heir, and it's stoppable'.

But Egyptian, I'd go 310 in the extreme.

 

[anotherlurker]

The Egyptian religion(s) were fine until Rome began to lean heavily into Christianization. This was also the time that Hieroglyphics were finally abandoned because of their association with paganism. After a few generations, the Egyptians became unable to even read their old holy texts.

It wasn't all that fine, it was running on autopilot. Ancient Egyptian religion places a heavy focus on the ruler, and the Roman emperors sure as hell didn't partake in cult activities the way an old Pharaoh would have. In the long run things would have changed even without christianization. Egypt would have to change back into domestic hands but that's unrealistic seeing how on all sides it's surrounded by more powerful neighbors who'd have absorbed it. Roman, Greek, Persian, Carthaginian, Arab Empire etc makes no difference in the end.

 

[Pischinovski]

What is the latest possible PoD for some form of Egyptian religion to be restored/founded (in Egypt, of course)?

If by "restored" you mean "adapted by later generations after having in practice died out", then I think it is not unreasonable to propose a very recent (or even future) POD.

A rough sketch:
-the Arab Rebellion is successful leading to a unified and relativly stable Arab state stretching from Gaza to the Zagros.
-Stability leads to gradual democratication in much of the Middle East and the adoption of welfare systems, financed through tax revenue and oil money, avoiding the rise of radical Islamism.
-Egyptian nationalism relies more heavily on ancient Egypt to distance itself from its Arab neighbours, leading to a higher interesst in Egyptian mythology and religion. At the same time Egypt becomes much more secular.
-During the counter-culture movement of the 60's and 70's a revival of Egyptian religion becomes popular among young people. This revival is heavily influenced by anti-authoritanism, feminism and ecologism and a bit of European occultism.
-By 2022 around 3-4% of Egyptians report "Egyptian" as their religion.

(This is obviously heavily based on OTL Asatru)

 

[Lalli]

It wasn't all that fine, it was running on autopilot. Ancient Egyptian religion places a heavy focus on the ruler, and the Roman emperors sure as hell didn't partake in cult activities the way an old Pharaoh would have. In the long run things would have changed even without christianization. Egypt would have to change back into domestic hands but that's unrealistic seeing how on all sides it's surrounded by more powerful neighbors who'd have absorbed it. Roman, Greek, Persian, Carthaginian, Arab Empire etc makes no difference in the end.

Religions can often come over such dramatic things. It is alwasy possible that after fall of non-Christian Roman Empire there rises new pharaoh. Or then religion changes itself so that it can stand without pharaoh. It did some centuries in OTL and I can't see why it could do that much longer.

If by "restored" you mean "adapted by later generations after having in practice died out", then I think it is not unreasonable to propose a very recent (or even future) POD.

A rough sketch:
-the Arab Rebellion is successful leading to a unified and relativly stable Arab state stretching from Gaza to the Zagros.
-Stability leads to gradual democratication in much of the Middle East and the adoption of welfare systems, financed through tax revenue and oil money, avoiding the rise of radical Islamism.
-Egyptian nationalism relies more heavily on ancient Egypt to distance itself from its Arab neighbours, leading to a higher interesst in Egyptian mythology and religion. At the same time Egypt becomes much more secular.
-During the counter-culture movement of the 60's and 70's a revival of Egyptian religion becomes popular among young people. This revival is heavily influenced by anti-authoritanism, feminism and ecologism and a bit of European occultism.
-By 2022 around 3-4% of Egyptians report "Egyptian" as their religion.

(This is obviously heavily based on OTL Asatru)

Far too late. Egyptian religion was already pretty much dead and almost forgotten by Arab invasion. There is not way how strongly Islamic society could turn itself back to Ancient Egyptian religion. There might be some revival but it hardly can be much more succesful than other neo-pagan movements.

 

[Pischinovski]

Religions can often come over such dramatic things. It is alwasy possible that after fall of non-Christian Roman Empire there rises new pharaoh. Or then religion changes itself so that it can stand without pharaoh. It did some centuries in OTL and I can't see why it could do that much longer.



Far too late. Egyptian religion was already pretty much dead and almost forgotten by Arab invasion. There is not way how strongly Islamic society could turn itself back to Ancient Egyptian religion. There might be some revival but it hardly can be much more succesful than other neo-pagan movements.

Yes. You might want to read my post again.

 

[John I of Brazil]

What is the latest possible PoD for some form of Egyptian religion to be restored/founded (in Egypt, of course)?

It must be an Egyptian religion involving worship of at least one native Egyptian deity IE Ra, Set, Isis, Osiris, etc, not a syncretic religion like Hellenism and not a composite religion ie Islamic offshoot recognizing Ra as a manifestation of Allah or something.

What do you mean by "not a syncretic religion"? Because I don't know if that would be possible. Like most polytheistic societies, egyptians loved to incorporate new gods, so even before the Hellenic era they worshipped "foreign" deities like Dedun (Nubia), Baal (semitic) Anat (amorite) and Astarte (Sumeria). Hellenism was just another influence. Thus, I don't think a "pure" Egyptian religion could exist unless there was some sort of radical change on how it works.

 

[PolishMagnet]

What do you mean by "not a syncretic religion"? Because I don't know if that would be possible. Like most polytheistic societies, egyptians loved to incorporate new gods, so even before the Hellenic era they worshipped "foreign" deities like Dedun (Nubia), Baal (semitic) Anat (amorite) and Astarte (Sumeria). Hellenism was just another influence. Thus, I don't think a "pure" Egyptian religion could exist unless there was some sort of radical change on how it works.

I mean the other direction, as in the base should be Egyptian. It should be primarily focused on Egyptian gods, with some things adopting from other religions, and not the other way around.

 

[PolishMagnet]

If by "restored" you mean "adapted by later generations after having in practice died out", then I think it is not unreasonable to propose a very recent (or even future) POD.

Yes it's fine. As I said in my post, "restored/founded" meaning it can be recreated.

 

[Hearkener]

It wasn't all that fine, it was running on autopilot. Ancient Egyptian religion places a heavy focus on the ruler, and the Roman emperors sure as hell didn't partake in cult activities the way an old Pharaoh would have. In the long run things would have changed even without christianization. Egypt would have to change back into domestic hands but that's unrealistic seeing how on all sides it's surrounded by more powerful neighbors who'd have absorbed it. Roman, Greek, Persian, Carthaginian, Arab Empire etc makes no difference in the end.

History is written by those who can write, and in the ancient world this meant the political, religious and cultural elite. Egyptian religion as described by those sources has a heavy focus on the figure of the Pharao as the religious leader, because to the people who wrote the records, he was genuinly that important. But we should not confuse the worship of the state, the grand ceremonies and propitiations, with the religious reality of the average egyptian, the wheat farmer and the cow-herd. While the Roman Empire was relatively uninvolved in the big important rituals that defined the religious observance of the elite, it is unlikely to have changed much of the average Egyptian's ability to practice their faith.

Secondly, the local elites were still very much around. They could, and did, organize a lot of religious events which the Emperor in Rome ignored. There is very little evidence that religious observance of the native Egyptian religion(s) declined prior to the rise of Christianity, unless you define religious observance exclusively by the presence of state action.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

3rd or Early 4th century conceivably could do it. But one thing I get is that opinions on the rise of Christianity run the gamut between 'inevitable' to 'give Julian fifteen years, an heir, and it's stoppable'.

But Egyptian, I'd go 310 in the extreme.

By Julian's time I think the rise of Christianity was probably a foregone conclusion, the only real question being whether it would be Orthodox Catholicism or Arianism that won out. If you butterfly away Constantine's rise or conversion, however, you could probably delay the Empire's Christianisation, perhaps indefinitely, but certainly by centuries if you wanted to, giving plenty of time for an Egyptian religious revival.

It wasn't all that fine, it was running on autopilot. Ancient Egyptian religion places a heavy focus on the ruler, and the Roman emperors sure as hell didn't partake in cult activities the way an old Pharaoh would have. In the long run things would have changed even without christianization. Egypt would have to change back into domestic hands but that's unrealistic seeing how on all sides it's surrounded by more powerful neighbors who'd have absorbed it. Roman, Greek, Persian, Carthaginian, Arab Empire etc makes no difference in the end.

True, but religious practices can adapt. Reading the Old Testament, it's difficult to image Judaism without a temple at Jerusalem to offer sacrifices in, and yet...

 

[Lothal]

Does it count if Rome commits to Isis worship? She's an originally Egyptian deity and her cult maintained many Egyptian features in Apuleius, even if a lot of the archaeology suggests she was heavily syncretised with pretty much every Greek goddess.

Alternatively Serapis cult

 

[Lalli]

True, but religious practices can adapt. Reading the Old Testament, it's difficult to image Judaism without a temple at Jerusalem to offer sacrifices in, and yet...

Exactly. Religions can work out finely even if some part is removed. Judaism managed to work out without Temple and probably many other religions too have faced dramatic change and still survived. So I don't see any reason why Egyptian religion couldn't survive without pharaoh. There has been periods without pharaoh or at least pharaoh who would commit important religious ceremonies so it is not issue.

 

[tus3]

Egypt would have to change back into domestic hands but that's unrealistic seeing how on all sides it's surrounded by more powerful neighbors who'd have absorbed it. Roman, Greek, Persian, Carthaginian, Arab Empire etc makes no difference in the end.

Can't we have Egypt itself become the empire which conquers surrounding lands and spreads it culture?

 

[Hearkener]

Can't we have Egypt itself become the empire which conquers surrounding lands and spreads it culture?

Absolutely. Egypt is a prime heartland for empire-builders. In Islamic times the ruler of Egypt was often more powerful than the Caliph or the various powers of Iraq.

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Nasser has a vision of the Old Gods during his heart attack, which he survives, and in gratitude he orders a restoration of their worship. This is highly controversial to say the least, and ultimately leads to an Egypt-Saudi war in 1973 (while Israel munches popcorn)