Latest PoD to achieve Islamic New World

[Ridwan Asher]

The title is self-explanatory, so let's get started quickly.

I personally still believe that Emirate Granada can possibly survive if Mehmet II had managed to successfully conquer Italy, thus will be in the position to aid the Granadans should the later asked for it. I admit it'll be hard, but I don't think the chance would be nil. However, I will maybe able to agree on an argument that states Ottoman Italy alone will not save them....

Certainly that Muslims winning Las Navas de Tolosa or any earlier event will be a better PoD for a better starting point to achieve extensive Islamic presence in the Americas, but I specifically looking for the latest possible PoD. I would love to hear everybody's opinion on this matter....

 

[orangnumpanglewat]

Actually I've got a POD in mind for a TL I would like to post after my final exams about an Islamic New World in a small scale
I've even started writing about 3 days ago, so it won't fail miserably like my previous attempts

So I've read somewhere (citation needed but forgotten) that Columbus didn't get the deal with the Spaniards right on, he came to a number of countries, including Granada, obviously Muhammad XII declined.
The POD started earlier, when an affair cost his reputation in the Muslim world. The Moors in Tangiers and Ceuta refused to accept the Granadan refugees and in the end Columbus gave the desperate Sultan a gamble which he took and the whole city of Granada fled west.

Coming soon in 3 weeks after my exams

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Actually I've got a POD in mind for a TL I would like to post after my final exams about an Islamic New World in a small scale
I've even started writing about 3 days ago, so it won't fail miserably like my previous attempts

So I've read somewhere (citation needed but forgotten) that Columbus didn't get the deal with the Spaniards right on, he came to a number of countries, including Granada, obviously Muhammad XII declined.
The POD started earlier, when an affair cost his reputation in the Muslim world. The Moors in Tangiers and Ceuta refused to accept the Granadan refugees and in the end Columbus gave the desperate Sultan a gamble which he took and the whole city of Granada fled west.

Coming soon in 3 weeks after my exams

I'm not sure that such project would be humanely possible. Like, really, why the hell they should flee all across to Atlantic to live a brutal and barbaric live with vastly depleted numbers (seriously, this whole attempt is going to end TRAGIC. Let alone the number of Granadans that can physically be mounted to all ships...) rather than North Africa that is now maybe less warmly towards them before, but still provides civilized facilitations to live with ??? They simply will have no choice, and even if the Granadans would be such an ass, North Africans wouldn't have enough reason to refuse them, but they can certainly be less friendly toward the Granadan immigrants....

Granadans were no barbaric-but-badass Vikings with strong constitution, but were citizens of a richie small country. Besides, if North Africa wouldn't accept them, Ottomans would have no reason to take the same stance, how annoying the Granadans would be when they still possessed their land, because now, they don't anymore.....

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

The title is self-explanatory, so let's get started quickly.

I personally still believe that Emirate Granada can possibly survive if Mehmet II had managed to successfully conquer Italy, thus will be in the position to aid the Granadans should the later asked for it. I admit it'll be hard, but I don't think the chance would be nil. However, I will maybe able to agree on an argument that states Ottoman Italy alone will not save them....

Certainly that Muslims winning Las Navas de Tolosa or any earlier event will be a better PoD for a better starting point to achieve extensive Islamic presence in the Americas, but I specifically looking for the latest possible PoD. I would love to hear everybody's opinion on this matter....

Any significant gains in Italy for the Ottomans would hinder any ability for them to provide support to the Emirate of Granada from falling eventually to Christian forces. It was inevitable as long as Christians in Iberia were determined to cast off the Muslims (and the Jews) off lands they considered theirs and theirs alone. Any significant aid via finances or troops would hinder their chance of seizing Italy and the Aragonese who controlled huge swathes of the Mediterranean would make sure the Ottomans would fail in any attempt. The only way I can see this is if the Muslim population remaining would be enslaved and forced to settle in the New World to work for Spain.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Any significant gains in Italy for the Ottomans would hinder any ability for them to provide support to the Emirate of Granada from falling eventually to Christian forces. It was inevitable as long as Christians in Iberia were determined to cast off the Muslims (and the Jews) off lands they considered theirs and theirs alone. Any significant aid via finances or troops would hinder their chance of seizing Italy and the Aragonese who controlled huge swathes of the Mediterranean would make sure the Ottomans would fail in any attempt. The only way I can see this is if the Muslim population remaining would be enslaved and forced to settle in the New World to work for Spain.

Based on Pasha's post in the other thread, I think Ottoman expansion in Italy will run like a blitz until Tuscany. Now, if they can make the northern Italian states surrender "voluntarily" quickly enough, then there can be some manpower expendable for another adventure across the west med.
To be fair though, I have absolutely no idea about how strong Aragonese navy would be to hinder this.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Based on Pasha's post in the other thread, I think Ottoman expansion in Italy will run like a blitz until Tuscany. Now, if they can make the northern Italian states surrender "voluntarily" quickly enough, then there can be some manpower expendable for another adventure across the west med.
To be fair though, I have absolutely no idea about how strong Aragonese navy would be to hinder this.

That's not taking into account any intervention by foreign powers sending in armies to Italy to contest Ottoman conquests there. I believe Aragon at the time rules southern Italy and Sicily so expect a lot of resources going to stop the Ottomans from at least advancing towards their heartlands.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

That's not taking into account any intervention by foreign powers sending in armies to Italy to contest Ottoman conquests there. I believe Aragon at the time rules southern Italy and Sicily so expect a lot of resources going to stop the Ottomans from at least advancing towards their heartlands.

Fair enough. As to Ottoman conquest of Italy, how quick would the quickest be I have little idea. And besides, I've grown less and less convinced to depend on Ottoman Italy alone....

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Fair enough. As to Ottoman conquest of Italy, how quick would the quickest be I have little idea. And besides, I've grown less and less convinced to depend on Ottoman Italy alone....

To tell you the truth I like the idea of an Ottoman Italy time-line. The butterflies are simply orgasmic to fathom.

I would say maybe a year would be the plausible time to pacify the Italian powers in the beginning and maybe a year or two to fend off other foreign powers from coming in (and of course any Italian powers willing to take their chances to throw off Ottoman rule)

 

[Ridwan Asher]

1) To tell you the truth I like the idea of an Ottoman Italy time-line. The butterflies are simply orgasmic to fathom.

2) I would say maybe a year would be the plausible time to pacify the Italian powers in the beginning and maybe a year or two to fend off other foreign powers from coming in (and of course any Italian powers willing to take their chances to throw off Ottoman rule)

1) Who doesn't ??

2) That's like, 5 years in maximum isn't it ?

Though OTOH, I'm not sure how exactly more accelerated the preparation for conquering Granada in the Castille-Aragon part by Ottoman Italy....

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

1) Who doesn't ??

2) That's like, 5 years in maximum isn't it ?

Though OTOH, I'm not sure how exactly more accelerated the preparation for conquering Granada in the Castille-Aragon part by Ottoman Italy....

Now who said that Islamic colonization is only possible by Muslim nations? Have Castile-Aragon decide that instead of sending all those Muslims and Jews into Morocco where most in OTL became nothing but pure head-aches to everyone in Europe as the Barbary Pirates, export them to the New World and use them as indentured servants/slaves. Some rebel and create an Islamic state in the Americas.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Now who said that Islamic colonization is only possible by Muslim nations? Have Castile-Aragon decide that instead of sending all those Muslims and Jews into Morocco where most in OTL became nothing but pure head-aches to everyone in Europe as the Barbary Pirates, export them to the New World and use them as indentured servants/slaves. Some rebel and create an Islamic state in the Americas.

The thing is, that possibility of rebellion in the new world WAS what he Spaniards wanted to avoid by, you know, the outright ban for muslims to ever step on the soils of their New World holdings.... It would be rather hard to convince the Spanish to do this while this whole new virgin lands, which hold all variety of exotic riches and all, ought to be made nothing but a new Spain.....

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

The thing is, that possibility of rebellion in the new world WAS what he Spaniards wanted to avoid by, you know, the outright ban for muslims to ever step on the soils of their New World holdings.... It would be rather hard to convince the Spanish to do this while this whole new virgin lands, which hold all variety of exotic riches and all, ought to be made nothing but a new Spain.....

But it is alternate history. There's nothing wrong to change opinion just a wee bit and have the Muslims be sent there as slaves. After all, there were plenty of Muslims among Black Africans in OTL, what would stop the Spaniards from exporting an easily ready source of manpower right next door. Plus it would be cheaper and wise on Spain's part to keep the Muslims close to them.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

But it is alternate history. There's nothing wrong to change opinion just a wee bit and have the Muslims be sent there as slaves. After all, there were plenty of Muslims among Black Africans in OTL, what would stop the Spaniards from exporting an easily ready source of manpower right next door. Plus it would be cheaper and wise on Spain's part to keep the Muslims close to them.

The thing is about this opinion indeed. While indeed opinion can be changed, the setting of the New World was pretty obvious, still many room, many resources, etc. Also that Granadan populace were pretty well educated and had little physical quality to be employed as slaves in mass, compared to African black slaves which were pretty much the opposite, though not so always as well....

IIRC, as alternative to North Africa, there was a thread in this site that discussed about the possibility of the Moriscos being sent to Lowlands/Rhineland instead...

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

The thing is about this opinion indeed. While indeed opinion can be changed, the setting of the New World was pretty obvious, still many room, many resources, etc. Also that Granadan populace were pretty well educated and had little physical quality to be employed as slaves in mass, compared to African black slaves which were pretty much the opposite, though not so always as well....

IIRC, as alternative to North Africa, there was a thread in this site that discussed about the possibility of the Moriscos being sent to Lowlands/Rhineland instead...

Regardless. Spain would be much better having them then forcing them out. Plus I didn't mean just the Granadans but North Africans in general.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Regardless. Spain would be much better having them then forcing them out. Plus I didn't mean just the Granadans but North Africans in general.

Indeed Spain would've been much better keeping them in (though I'm not sure if as labor slaves) but that's fanaticism for you....

Reconquista continuing to North Africa will be another game entirely. It's one whole different environtment, which was so overwhelmingly muslim and all, and yes Ottomans would be a problem, even without Italy as OTL has proven....

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Indeed Spain would've been much better keeping them in (though I'm not sure if as labor slaves) but that's fanaticism for you....

Reconquista continuing to North Africa will be another game entirely. It's one whole different environtment, which was so overwhelmingly muslim and all, and yes Ottomans would be a problem, even without Italy as OTL has proven....

Spain did have an interest to continue the Reconquista to North Africa and re-Christianize the locals there and the Spanish were fanatically Catholic. Perhaps such to have something along the lines of offering them to convert to Catholicism or become enslaved and go to the New World?

Or instead of slaves, the Spanish use the Muslims to help them administrate their possessions in the new world.

 

[Joseph K.]

If the USA elects John Kerry in '04, he would almost certianly have surrendered to the Muslims by now.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Spain did have an interest to continue the Reconquista to North Africa and re-Christianize the locals there and the Spanish were fanatically Catholic. Perhaps such to have something along the lines of offering them to convert to Catholicism or become enslaved and go to the New World?

It will simply be an entirely different game. Granada was a little state with a small population while North Africa was always the source of fanatical Islamic movement that was just as fanatical as the Spaniards (and actually these movements were responsible in shaping the Catholic fanaticism in Spain,as a counter against it). They would love to conquer it, but it will be almost impossible at best without Industrial Age techs and all....

 

[Ian the Admin]

If the USA elects John Kerry in '04, he would almost certianly have surrendered to the Muslims by now.

Don't troll.

 

[Guerrilla Republik]

To tell you the truth I like the idea of an Ottoman Italy time-line. The butterflies are simply orgasmic to fathom.

I would say maybe a year would be the plausible time to pacify the Italian powers in the beginning and maybe a year or two to fend off other foreign powers from coming in (and of course any Italian powers willing to take their chances to throw off Ottoman rule)

I have explored this topic in my TL which can be found in my sig, but as to how plausible it is...