Latest PoD for a Portuguese Congo and consequences

[Ridwan Asher]

Could Portugal have prevailed over Leopold of Belgium over the right to colonize the Congo Basin ? Or would a Portuguese Congo require an earlier PoD ?


Also, did Pink Map have anything to do with Portugal's failure to have its claim on the Congo Basin recognized ? Had Portugal managed to get the Congo Basin, will they still be running for Pink Map as well ?

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

I always thought the Portuguese had an unrecognised protectorate over the Kongo Kingdom, but I can't seem to find anything on it at the moment..

In all honesty, Britain's own colonial ambitions basically superceded any Portuguese attempts at, well, anything, including the Pink Map, which could have caused an international crisis (going against the rules of the Berlin Conference).

An idea I've toyed with is getting the British, French and Portuguese diplomatically involved in Leopold's harsh rule (i.e. the massacres, etc.). A partition could happen; Rhodes was very interested in Katanga, the French had pre-emption on any sale of the Congo and the Portuguese wanted the river's mouth.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

In all honesty, Britain's own colonial ambitions basically superceded any Portuguese attempts at, well, anything, including the Pink Map, which could have caused an international crisis (going against the rules of the Berlin Conference).

Well, it's obvious. Baring the British seeing other better things to get by compromising to a non-great power, they won't.

The thing is, I'm rather interested in knowing the origins of this Pink Map attempt. Was it a direct result of their previous failure to get the Congo River, or did they already posses this agenda prior to International African Association ? Therefore, I wonder whether a Portuguese Congo success would have butterflied this away.....

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

The thing is, I'm rather interested in knowing the origins of this Pink Map attempt. Was it a direct result of their previous failure to get the Congo River, or did they already posses this agenda prior to International African Association ? Therefore, I wonder whether a Portuguese Congo success would have butterflied this away.....

Seeing as Portugal possessed Mozambique and Angola long before the Conference, I'd assume the Pink Map was part of their agenda before anyone else was even interested. It probably took a revitalised interest in Africa (on the part of the other powers) to make the plans official. The Congo was likely a mere step in their Pink Map anyway - regardless of that, they still wanted their colony to be trans-continental. The other problem with the Congo is the other powers that want it; Germany, Britain and France all had their separate agendas to do with the Congo.

Portugal had her claims, and her protectorate over the Kingdom of Kongo, but that was simply rebuffed.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

A different Berlin Congress could have given it to Portugal. Portugal had been traded with the Kongolese for ages anyways, and had diplomatic relations with the Kongo kingdom until it's collapse.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

A different Berlin Congress could have given it to Portugal. Portugal had been traded with the Kongolese for ages anyways, and had diplomatic relations with the Kongo kingdom until it's collapse.

The whole reason they gave it to Leopold was because the Germans, British, French and Portuguese all wanted it. They couldn't agree how to partition it or who to give it to. Leopold was a useful - and neutral - candidate.

So I don't think there was a chance of Portugal getting it in 1885. Perhaps if they became more active in their diplomatic relations, or used the Kongolese to explore the interior before any other power attempted it?

 

[pompejus]

The whole reason they gave it to Leopold was because the Germans, British, French and Portuguese all wanted it. They couldn't agree how to partition it or who to give it to. Leopold was a useful - and neutral - candidate.

So I don't think there was a chance of Portugal getting it in 1885. Perhaps if they became more active in their diplomatic relations, or used the Kongolese to explore the interior before any other power attempted it?

France, Germany and Brittain all were great powers, Portugual was not. It was a rather unimportant country, not unlike Belgium. If king Leo hadn't wanted the Congo, I think Portugual would have been the most likely choice.

 

[Mikestone8]

France, Germany and Brittain all were great powers, Portugual was not. It was a rather unimportant country, not unlike Belgium. If king Leo hadn't wanted the Congo, I think Portugual would have been the most likely choice.

Basically, they have to get possession before Leopold does. I don't see any particular reason why the powers would turf them out just to put him in, and they wouldn't be able to agree among themselves about how to partition the area, so Portugal could easily end up keeping it.

They might even get at least some of the Pink Map. As I understand, it was Rhodes, more than Britain, who wanted "Rhodesia", and Whitehall might or might not have backed him up. I could imagine a border on the Zambezi, given that between the Congo and German East Africa, the All-Red-Route is already off the agenda.

This would be particularly likely if Portugal were willing to cede Lorenco Marques, and a strip along the Limpopo. That would leave the Boer Republics completely encircled by British territory, and London might have been willing to pay a price for that. So Portugal could end up with most of what are now Zambia and Malawi, though the Germans might acquire some land in the northeast parts thereof.

 

[Gonzaga]

Could Portugal have prevailed over Leopold of Belgium over the right to colonize the Congo Basin ? Or would a Portuguese Congo require an earlier PoD ?

The problem of Portugal with the competition over the Congo is that Leopold's offer was more interesting to British interests than the Portuguese colonization of the place. After all, transforming the Congo into a free trade colony wasn't in the plans of Lisbon, and as it became a personal territory of Leopold rather than a colony then the military presence of other European power in the region would be weaker.

Maybe the POD could be simply that Leopold doesn't develop an interest for the area. The British were supporting the Portuguese claim over the Congo as late as 1884, so it probably could be done.

Also, did Pink Map have anything to do with Portugal's failure to have its claim on the Congo Basin recognized ? Had Portugal managed to get the Congo Basin, will they still be running for Pink Map as well ?

Well, the answer here is yes and no. The Pink Map did have indeed something to do with the failure on Congo, as it increased the idea in the Portuguese government that Portugal should be compensated by not receiving that area. Congo was the main priority in Portuguese colonial expansion plans, and the Map itself was only drawn in 1886, after Congo was lost to Leopold.
However, the idea of connecting Angola and Mozambique in one single colonial area through the continent is older than that. In late 1870's were launched the first expeditions to explore the region between the colonies. So even if Portugal gets the Congo they would probably raise a claim to the Pink Map area, unless the British put it very clear in the negotiation table that one can't come with the other.

 

[Joseph Solis in Australia]

With POD after the Berlin Conference is ASB why, Portugal's colonial expansion ambitions was it will create a conflict with the British ambition to connect Cairo and Cape Town. To maintain its long-time friendship with the British, Portugal opted to give up its ambitions. British East Congo is more plausible than to have whole Congo under Portugal's flag.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Well, the answer here is yes and no. The Pink Map did have indeed something to do with the failure on Congo, as it increased the idea in the Portuguese government that Portugal should be compensated by not receiving that area. Congo was the main priority in Portuguese colonial expansion plans, and the Map itself was only drawn in 1886, after Congo was lost to Leopold.
However, the idea of connecting Angola and Mozambique in one single colonial area through the continent is older than that. In late 1870's were launched the first expeditions to explore the region between the colonies. So even if Portugal gets the Congo they would probably raise a claim to the Pink Map area, unless the British put it very clear in the negotiation table that one can't come with the other.

If British occupation of Egypt will still happen, it seems that British will still be heading north beyond Zambezi. Somehow I suspect that Portuguese will be slower in expanding into the Congos compared to OTL Leopold's speed. Maybe Katanga will end up British or possibly even a land bridge with Uganda will be gained, even with the presence of German Tanganyika.....

 

[Velasco]

Alternatively Portugal could have purchased the Congo or wrested it from Belgian hands at a later date.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

With POD after the Berlin Conference is ASB why, Portugal's colonial expansion ambitions was it will create a conflict with the British ambition to connect Cairo and Cape Town. To maintain its long-time friendship with the British, Portugal opted to give up its ambitions. British East Congo is more plausible than to have whole Congo under Portugal's flag.

Erm no not exactly. What happened was that most (all?) of the powers at the Berlin Conference agreed to the Pink Map (see Ridwan's link for more info on that) except the British. In spite of the treaty signed at Berlin, they began rapidly colonising the lands north of South Africa. So Portugal's friendship with Britain had nothing to do with anything.

 

[Thande]

Portugal did have a protectorate over the Kongo Empire right up until WW1-ish time when it was finally formally annexed to Angola. The problem was that the Kongo Empire didn't cover the area we now know as the Congo anymore due to a decline to do with a disputed succession and factionalism. You need to avoid or minimise that decline and then the Portguese have a protectorate over the Congo by default.

 

[Wendell]

Look at Leopold's other interests....

If memory serves me right, Leopold had looked at other areas for colonial development/personal enrichment before settling on the Congo. Have him go with, say, New Guinea, and the fate of today's D.R. Congo will be different. That said, it will not all be Portugese; if the British get Katanga, they will claim it runs up to the Semliki River or Lake Edward at minimum, thereby allowing a corridor to connect interests in Egypt and Sudan to be linked to South Africa and Rhodes' project.

 

[archaeogeek]

If memory serves me right, Leopold had looked at other areas for colonial development/personal enrichment before settling on the Congo. Have him go with, say, New Guinea, and the fate of today's D.R. Congo will be different. That said, it will not all be Portugese; if the British get Katanga, they will claim it runs up to the Semliki River or Lake Edward at minimum, thereby allowing a corridor to connect interests in Egypt and Sudan to be linked to South Africa and Rhodes' project.

What about Katanga as part of Rhodesia and Kivu as part of Uganda?

 

[Metro]

So who gets Rwanda and Burundi.

Both were

A former colonial possession of central Africa. Once a part of German East Africa, the territory was occupied (1919) by Belgian troops during World War I

It was administered by Belgium from 1922 to 1962, during which time it was reconstituted (1946) as a UN trust territory. It was part of the Belgian Congo from 1925 to 1960. In 1962 it was divided into the independent states of Rwanda and Burundi.

Even though part of the Belgian Congo they were autonomous like Katanga was until the early 30s.

Speaking of Katanga, you do know that today they provide the Democratic Congo with 70% of the budget money. They are Democratic Congo richest province. Seems the government even divided the province into four parts. Probably to stop Independence talk.

The new Congolese constitution proposes to split Katanga into four new provinces:
Haut-Katanga Province
Tanganyika Province
Lualaba Province
Haut-Lomami Province

This was to have taken place last year.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

With POD after the Berlin Conference is ASB why, Portugal's colonial expansion ambitions was it will create a conflict with the British ambition to connect Cairo and Cape Town. To maintain its long-time friendship with the British, Portugal opted to give up its ambitions. British East Congo is more plausible than to have whole Congo under Portugal's flag.

BEC..as in Katanga/Kivu perhaps to link up with Br. Uganda,

it would still make sense though for the Portuguese to retain everything else to the head of navigation on the Congo at Kisangani
if they had been more politically adept earlier they could have beat Leopold

the key is really to have the British in their corner and the French onside, which they did, as they went to them first. They are really the only ones that really count.

how does joint co- protectorate of the three sound..French in the West...Br in the East and sount...and the Portuguese in between. I mean really what would any of the others do about it really..