Languedocian Jewish history/culture without the Albigensian crusade

[Lexyflop]

Hi so first thing if i’m saying anything here that is inaccurate or misinformation pls do say! i really want to learn more and be better at research.

but yeah so… from what i understand, prior to the albegensian crusade in Languedoc/county of Toulouse there was a thriving Jewish population, some of whom even had important roles in public offices. Then the crusade occured and the inquisition too, which began a decline until their eventual expulsion from france. (this is rather oversimplified.)

now, i’ve seen a few people on here say that aragon absorbing the county of toulouse would probably have prevented the crusade or at least given them a chance to defeat the french. if this had occured, what would life be like for the jewish population going forward? would they be able to continue to flourish, and would their influence or the general better treatment or even acceptance spread into aragon itself. or would the aragonese influence impact them negatively.

apologies if this is poorly written!!

 

[AlfLandonFan]

First, I would like to welcome you to the community, and I hope you enjoy your time here.

Now, for the question. There is one way that I think could both protect the Jewish population of Toulouse and ensure Toulouse has enough autonomy to perhaps resist the French if they declare a similar expulsion as they did OTL. I'm referring to Peter II of Aragon's plea to the Pope and Clergy. He managed to convince Pope Innocent III to call off the crusade, denounce Simon de Montfort, make Simon return all the lands he conquered, and force him to listen to Peter's demands. However, the Clergy of the Council of Lavaur rejected Peter's demand that Count Raymond VI have his lands returned, and that he was ready to repent. Peter refused to listen to the clergy, and this infuriated Innocent who then called for the Crusade to be put back on. So, if the clergy accepts Simon's plea, the crusade would be called off and Simon would no longer have the funds to invade Toulouse. Raymond VI would remain in power, and Toulouse would continue to act defacto independent.

Southern France and Northern France were quite different at this time, and Raymond also had positions of power in other places in Southern France like Provence, so slowly I feel Occitania as a whole would drift apart from France, and might become fully independent one day. This is a massive what if, but your question is about the Jews of Toulouse.

The Jews of Toulouse were some of the most powerful people in the city. They were actually banned from holding public office, but remained wealthy land owners with ties to the Templars. They were so powerful, in fact, that a massive tax was put on them and debates were held over whether or not they had too much power. The Jews had fostered quite a community, and before their expulsion, had attracted many other Jews to seek refuge and opportunity in Toulouse. So, I feel like their power would only grow. There's one idea I have that particularly interests me. Assuming Columbus' exploits go like OTL, the Jews of Toulouse (By this time, perhaps their influence has extended throughout Occitania and Aragon) would be very attractive to explorers and settlers looking for glory in the new world. Wealthy bankers, landowners, and workshop owners with close ties to a Christian military group? They would be perfect. Aragon (Perhaps Spain by this time), and Occitania (Or France) might not be as prejudiced towards Jews if they were responsible for helping colonize. Then that leads you to the idea of Jewish colonies in the Americas, and alternate colonization.

Overall this is an idea I'm very interested in and I'm eager to look into it more.

Here's my source for most of these claims btw - Toulouse, France

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

but yeah so… from what i understand, prior to the albegensian crusade in Languedoc/county of Toulouse there was a thriving Jewish population, some of whom even had important roles in public offices. Then the crusade occured and the inquisition too, which began a decline until their eventual expulsion from france. (this is rather oversimplified.)

There's some distinction to be made between the city and the county - for much of this period, Toulouse city was essentially a republic governed by its council and had a great deal of independence from the count, while the smaller towns within the county were under feudal lordships. It is in those towns where Jewish public officers were most common - for instance Abba Mari as bailli of St. Gilles in 1165 and others holding the same office in Béziers. in Toulouse city itself, as @AlfLandonFan says, Jews didn't hold public office although they did have a great deal of freedom by contemporary standards, with municipal records listing them as citizens (this was also true in other Languedoc cities).

now, i’ve seen a few people on here say that aragon absorbing the county of toulouse would probably have prevented the crusade or at least given them a chance to defeat the french. if this had occured, what would life be like for the jewish population going forward? would they be able to continue to flourish, and would their influence or the general better treatment or even acceptance spread into aragon itself. or would the aragonese influence impact them negatively.

Aragon was also tolerant of Jews in the 12th and early 13th centuries. The issue was that, as a Catholic kingdom, Aragon accepted the Third and Fourth Lateran Councils and the Council of Montpellier, which imposed severe restrictions on Jews and banned the appointment of Jews or Muslims to public office on pain of excommunication. To prevent the social standing of Jews from declining in the 13th century, southern France would have to retain not only political independence but some degree of religious independence; otherwise, there would be exceptions like Marseilles IOTL where some of the restrictions were not enforced, but the overall trend would be for the worse as it was everywhere else in western Europe.

Also, shameless plug for The Purim of the Philosophers, one of my published stories set in just such a world.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

Maybe have Catharism a Neo-Gnostic religion survive? Since the Cathars were big into practicing their own version of Christianity, it could be that Cathars would be more tolerant of European Jews than Catholics and Orthodox.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

The nature of Cathar theology is such that I can't imagine the Albigensian Crusade not happening, -short of Catharism dying out on its own or not flourishing in Toulouse to begin with.

They were actually banned from holding public office, but remained wealthy land owners with ties to the Templars.

Maybe the Templars could take the lead on the Crusade? Keep it narrowly focused on the Gnostics and run interference for their Jewish friends.

 

[Lexyflop]

Maybe have Catharism a Neo-Gnostic religion survive? Since the Cathars were big into practicing their own version of Christianity, it could be that Cathars would be more tolerant of European Jews than Catholics and Orthodox.

I’d really really love to incorporate their survival into a timeline, but honestly it seems like a very difficult thing to make happen not impossible perhaps. also the cathars themselves are confusing and a lot of sources on them are contradictory which doesn’t help. fascinating though.

The nature of Cathar theology is such that I can't imagine the Albigensian Crusade not happening, -short of Catharism dying out on its own or not flourishing in Toulouse to begin with.


Maybe the Templars could take the lead on the Crusade? Keep it narrowly focused on the Gnostics and run interference for their Jewish friends.

I seem to remember that the templar’s supported the cathars? at least at first. but i’d have to check sources and sources on the templars can be just as murky as the cathars really.
thank you both for the responses

 

[Lexyflop]

First, I would like to welcome you to the community, and I hope you enjoy your time here.

Now, for the question. There is one way that I think could both protect the Jewish population of Toulouse and ensure Toulouse has enough autonomy to perhaps resist the French if they declare a similar expulsion as they did OTL. I'm referring to Peter II of Aragon's plea to the Pope and Clergy. He managed to convince Pope Innocent III to call off the crusade, denounce Simon de Montfort, make Simon return all the lands he conquered, and force him to listen to Peter's demands. However, the Clergy of the Council of Lavaur rejected Peter's demand that Count Raymond VI have his lands returned, and that he was ready to repent. Peter refused to listen to the clergy, and this infuriated Innocent who then called for the Crusade to be put back on. So, if the clergy accepts Simon's plea, the crusade would be called off and Simon would no longer have the funds to invade Toulouse. Raymond VI would remain in power, and Toulouse would continue to act defacto independent.

Southern France and Northern France were quite different at this time, and Raymond also had positions of power in other places in Southern France like Provence, so slowly I feel Occitania as a whole would drift apart from France, and might become fully independent one day. This is a massive what if, but your question is about the Jews of Toulouse.

The Jews of Toulouse were some of the most powerful people in the city. They were actually banned from holding public office, but remained wealthy land owners with ties to the Templars. They were so powerful, in fact, that a massive tax was put on them and debates were held over whether or not they had too much power. The Jews had fostered quite a community, and before their expulsion, had attracted many other Jews to seek refuge and opportunity in Toulouse. So, I feel like their power would only grow. There's one idea I have that particularly interests me. Assuming Columbus' exploits go like OTL, the Jews of Toulouse (By this time, perhaps their influence has extended throughout Occitania and Aragon) would be very attractive to explorers and settlers looking for glory in the new world. Wealthy bankers, landowners, and workshop owners with close ties to a Christian military group? They would be perfect. Aragon (Perhaps Spain by this time), and Occitania (Or France) might not be as prejudiced towards Jews if they were responsible for helping colonize. Then that leads you to the idea of Jewish colonies in the Americas, and alternate colonization.

Overall this is an idea I'm very interested in and I'm eager to look into it more.

Here's my source for most of these claims btw - Toulouse, France

thank you for the welcome very kind of you.

it’s very interesting that they had those ties with the templars, so long as they don’t go down with them they’d probably be good to go for a long while. alternate colonisation is certainly an interesting one not something i’d really thought about before. not huge on colonisation but still, it is interesting to think how it may have panned out and the social implications that may have stemmed from it. very interesting stuff. thank you

 

[Lexyflop]

There's some distinction to be made between the city and the county - for much of this period, Toulouse city was essentially a republic governed by its council and had a great deal of independence from the count, while the smaller towns within the county were under feudal lordships. It is in those towns where Jewish public officers were most common - for instance Abba Mari as bailli of St. Gilles in 1165 and others holding the same office in Béziers. in Toulouse city itself, as @AlfLandonFan says, Jews didn't hold public office although they did have a great deal of freedom by contemporary standards, with municipal records listing them as citizens (this was also true in other Languedoc cities).

Aragon was also tolerant of Jews in the 12th and early 13th centuries. The issue was that, as a Catholic kingdom, Aragon accepted the Third and Fourth Lateran Councils and the Council of Montpellier, which imposed severe restrictions on Jews and banned the appointment of Jews or Muslims to public office on pain of excommunication. To prevent the social standing of Jews from declining in the 13th century, southern France would have to retain not only political independence but some degree of religious independence; otherwise, there would be exceptions like Marseilles IOTL where some of the restrictions were not enforced, but the overall trend would be for the worse as it was everywhere else in western Europe.

Also, shameless plug for The Purim of the Philosophers, one of my published stories set in just such a world.

will be checking out that story! love the title

it’s very interesting how the system in southern france/languedoc worked at the time . so many counts and city republics. ideally, the south would be able to keep its religous and political independence but in a time when the catholic church was so powerful it does seem a bit difficult. then and again, poland had a much more accepting culture towards jewish people (or at least rulers who didn’t want to persecute them) and they didn’t come under attack so… it’s not impossible. i also wonder if it’s possible that if toulouse/languedoc region came under the aragonese crown it might’ve influenced more positive jewish-christian relations (and maybe muslim relations, although the circumstances are very different) and lead to a drop of restrictive rules and such. but i could be being idealistic here



thank you for the response!

 

[kasumigenx]

Occitan not thriving as a language is a result of Aquitaine not splitting from England as Eleanor of Aquitaine wanted.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

I seem to remember that the templar’s supported the cathars?

IIRC it was less that they supported the Cathars, and more that they felt that a crusade in Europe against self-proclaimed Christians was well outside their jurisdiction.

sources on the templars can be just as murky as the cathars really.

Yes, and there's no shortage of conspiracy theories about both, especially ones linking the two together.

 

[Lexyflop]

IIRC it was less that they supported the Cathars, and more that they felt that a crusade in Europe against self-proclaimed Christians was well outside their jurisdiction.


Yes, and there's no shortage of conspiracy theories about both, especially ones linking the two together.

god yeah.. all the conspiracies are crazy. cathar/templar treasures really seem to grab people’s imagination!

would it be viable to somehow butterfly enough lords or even some clergy to share the templars views? or is it too much given the religous state at the time.

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

it’s very interesting how the system in southern france/languedoc worked at the time . so many counts and city republics.

Southern France in the 11th-early 13th centuries could give the Holy Roman Empire a run for its money in terms of how... feudal it was. It really put the feud in feudalism too; warfare between landed nobles was endemic, which was part of the reason the region was as weak as it was. Now that I think of it, maybe you want to start with a POD where one of the counts unifies the Languedoc and is able to make alliances and present a united front against the crusade.

ideally, the south would be able to keep its religous and political independence but in a time when the catholic church was so powerful it does seem a bit difficult. then and again, poland had a much more accepting culture towards jewish people (or at least rulers who didn’t want to persecute them) and they didn’t come under attack so… it’s not impossible.

That's why I said "western Europe." The Jewish badges and other restrictions were decreed by the Church in Poland as they were elsewhere, but the Polish princes and nobles were strong enough and far enough away from Rome to ignore the decrees when it suited them. That wasn't so much the case further west.

also wonder if it’s possible that if toulouse/languedoc region came under the aragonese crown it might’ve influenced more positive jewish-christian relations (and maybe muslim relations, although the circumstances are very different) and lead to a drop of restrictive rules and such. but i could be being idealistic here

One thing that incorporation into Aragon would do is immunize the Jews of Toulouse (and whatever other parts of the Languedoc Aragon absorbs) from the 14th-century expulsion of French Jews. Of course, the issue then becomes whether Aragon itself expels Jews later, either through a unification of Spain similar to OTL or, if that doesn't happen, of its own accord. Beginning in the mid-13th century, there was intense pressure against Jews by the Aragonese church, leading to incidents like the disputation of 1263, the massacres and forced baptism in Majorca during the 14th and early 15th centuries, and the Disputation of Tortosa in 1413-14. The status of Jews in Aragon could blow hot and cold depending on who was king and who was pope at any given time - there were intervals even in the 14th century where their situation was good, but the general trend was down. Again, this wasn't just Aragon, this was almost everywhere in western Europe - the First through Third Crusades, the Third and Fourth Lateran Councils, and the Black Death were all turning points, and accusations like the blood libel and host desecration spread very quickly after they first appeared - so it's hard to avoid on a national scale. I would say that, to change this overall picture, you'd need to start earlier than the Albigensian Crusade.

(Also, if you like stories, here's another one set in a 12th-century Toulouse which came to tolerance by another path. If you get the idea that medieval Occitan Judaism is one of my things, you're not wrong.)

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

would it be viable to somehow butterfly enough lords or even some clergy to share the templars views? or is it too much given the religous state at the time.

To stop the Albigensian Crusade? I don't think so. Going back to my earlier comment about the Cathar's theology; they were definitely gnostic, and gnosticism is basically its own religion that adopts the trappings of other religions (thus the gnostic sects of Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, and greco-roman paganism). It's kinda like the theological equivalent of a cuckoo bird. Gnostic beliefs (God is evil, God's creation is a cage to imprison our souls, procreation is bad, we must seek revealed knowledge in order to escape creation, ect...) are well outside of what could fall within the big tent of medieval Catholicism. So the Cathars were essentially a non-Christian faith proselytizing in the Pope's backyard, and using Catholic symbols and rituals to mask their work. Once discovered I don't think they'd have a long shelf life.

 

[Lexyflop]

Southern France in the 11th-early 13th centuries could give the Holy Roman Empire a run for its money in terms of how... feudal it was. It really put the feud in feudalism too; warfare between landed nobles was endemic, which was part of the reason the region was as weak as it was. Now that I think of it, maybe you want to start with a POD where one of the counts unifies the Languedoc and is able to make alliances and present a united front against the crusade.

That's why I said "western Europe." The Jewish badges and other restrictions were decreed by the Church in Poland as they were elsewhere, but the Polish princes and nobles were strong enough and far enough away from Rome to ignore the decrees when it suited them. That wasn't so much the case further west.

One thing that incorporation into Aragon would do is immunize the Jews of Toulouse (and whatever other parts of the Languedoc Aragon absorbs) from the 14th-century expulsion of French Jews. Of course, the issue then becomes whether Aragon itself expels Jews later, either through a unification of Spain similar to OTL or, if that doesn't happen, of its own accord. Beginning in the mid-13th century, there was intense pressure against Jews by the Aragonese church, leading to incidents like the disputation of 1263, the massacres and forced baptism in Majorca during the 14th and early 15th centuries, and the Disputation of Tortosa in 1413-14. The status of Jews in Aragon could blow hot and cold depending on who was king and who was pope at any given time - there were intervals even in the 14th century where their situation was good, but the general trend was down. Again, this wasn't just Aragon, this was almost everywhere in western Europe - the First through Third Crusades, the Third and Fourth Lateran Councils, and the Black Death were all turning points, and accusations like the blood libel and host desecration spread very quickly after they first appeared - so it's hard to avoid on a national scale. I would say that, to change this overall picture, you'd need to start earlier than the Albigensian Crusade.

(Also, if you like stories, here's another one set in a 12th-century Toulouse which came to tolerance by another path. If you get the idea that medieval Occitan Judaism is one of my things, you're not wrong.)

thank you so much for taking the time to reply with all this, i’m very grateful .


sooooo yeah, a better pod for all this would probably have to be a lot earlier huh, perhaps at a point in early christian development perhaps, that would lead to the catholic church not being anti semetic. i’ll certainly be doing more research into that topic o7 .

the bit about poland is very interesting to learn. being far enough away must’ve benefited them with quite a few others things too. unfortunately occitania has the exact opposite position. unless you were to have al andalus take aragon they kinda have the short end of the stick :/

 

[Lexyflop]

Now that I think of it, maybe you want to start with a POD where one of the counts unifies the Languedoc and is able to make alliances and present a united front against the crusade.

So thinking about this.. do you know of any counts who could’ve potentially done this? or is it more of a matter of perhaps coming up with one to insert into the situation.

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

So thinking about this.. do you know of any counts who could’ve potentially done this? or is it more of a matter of perhaps coming up with one to insert into the situation.

The issue with the late 11th and early 12th-century counts is that they tended to be more interested in crusading and/or fighting their relatives over fiefdoms than ruling Toulouse. What you might need is one who has the military and administrative chops to centralize the county - not an easy task at the time, but those who managed it, like William the Conqueror or Roger II of Sicily, got a big leg up - and who actually stays in Toulouse to do it rather than following the Cross to the Holy Land or trying to expand his domains. Raymond IV might have pulled it off, although you'd need to avoid or postpone the First Crusade, or alternatively make him less religious somehow.

 

[Lexyflop]

The issue with the late 11th and early 12th-century counts is that they tended to be more interested in crusading and/or fighting their relatives over fiefdoms than ruling Toulouse. What you might need is one who has the military and administrative chops to centralize the county - not an easy task at the time, but those who managed it, like William the Conqueror or Roger II of Sicily, got a big leg up - and who actually stays in Toulouse to do it rather than following the Cross to the Holy Land or trying to expand his domains. Raymond IV might have pulled it off, although you'd need to avoid or postpone the First Crusade, or alternatively make him less religious somehow.

11th/12th century priorities ig the draw to crusade was just too much lol.

i will def take a dive into Raymond IV and see if there’s any ways to change his path, admittedly it might end up being a bit of a wish wash but if there’s some genuine moment in his life that’d be cool .

him deciding to take toulouse while the other counts were off crusading or squabbling would be very sneaky indeed… i quite like the idea but it might get backlash from the church at the time. in any case thank you again for sharing your knowledge <3

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

him deciding to take toulouse while the other counts were off crusading or squabbling would be very sneaky indeed… i quite like the idea but it might get backlash from the church at the time. in any case thank you again for sharing your knowledge <3

He was already Count of Toulouse, he wouldn't have to take it -- what he'd need to do is establish direct rule over the territories of all the vassals who've gone crusading. Which would make him a major villain to nearly everyone with any power in Christian Europe, but if he could survive the backlash, a strong one.

 

[PrinceofApathy]

Assuming I’m remembering this right, the Judeo-Provençal language would thrive in the modern day. It endured into the nineteenth century IOTL, so removing a crusade would almost certainly ensure its survival. I have a feeling they would fall under the Western Sephardic rite though, as they were the leading community in Bayonne.

 

[Lexyflop]

Assuming I’m remembering this right, the Judeo-Provençal language would thrive in the modern day. It endured into the nineteenth century IOTL, so removing a crusade would almost certainly ensure its survival. I have a feeling they would fall under the Western Sephardic rite though, as they were the leading community in Bayonne.

this is immensely pleasing cus Judeo-Provençal writings are very beautiful.. a combined world where it and Occitan its various dialects are still thriving is very fun to imagine

He was already Count of Toulouse, he wouldn't have to take it -- what he'd need to do is establish direct rule over the territories of all the vassals who've gone crusading. Which would make him a major villain to nearly everyone with any power in Christian Europe, but if he could survive the backlash, a strong one.

ah i see! yeah i can imagine he’d be seen as a complete devil by everyone else which doesn’t bode well, but like you said, if he can survive that backlash he’s well set it’s just a matter of how