Jared, continuing the discussion about possible "temple-zoos" that raise animals like koalas in captivity, what about crocodile farms? I can easily see crocs being desirable for captive raising for religious reason given their IOTL totemic and spiritual significance for some Aboriginal groups, which would be same ITTL for Aururian civilisations very likely. Croc farms can produce some amount of leather and meat, too, so that can be of some utility.
Lands of Red and Gold, Act II
- Thread starter Jared
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Aozhouhuaren
Banned
So basically just an occasional tasty treat that is conveniently abundant in times of need but not a staple of Aururian cuisine.
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The thing with crocodiles is that farming Aururians have only very recently moved into the regions where crocodiles live, so there hasn't really been time to develop such a tradition. While vagrant crocodiles occasionally appear as far south as Brisbane, their reliable range is much further north, mostly in regions which the Nuttana have recently established themselves in. So I don't think that this will have developed yet.
Pretty much. The bush turkey will probably become locally endangered whenever the need arises, though not continent-wide at once unless Aururia goes through some equivalent of the Great Depression.
The Nuttana and some of the Kiyungu might develop crocodile farming based on the old temple-zoo concept of wild enclosures, then, and that would affect their cultures in some ways. Crocodile leather could be a valuable export, as well as a staple of local fashions. Alligator meat could grow into a Nuttana delicacy, and maybe even a staple in alligator raising communities.
E: also, what's the prevalence of brown seal hunting for fur (+ meat, blubber, other products)?
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Going to put this as a separate post, so pardon the double posting.
Did some research on different strains of kratom and their geographical distribution and how good they are and would be ITTL as a "commercial product" (i.e. basically as a recreational drug like alcohol but not culturally thought of as such) and it seems there's a whole lot of misinformation and little more than advertising, should be expected since kratom is a booming business especially through online sales.
I think that most strains from around the SEA mainland to Indonesia and even Papua New Guinea are pretty good for the Nuttana to obtain kratom plants from to be cultivated back home.
I expect Thai, Malay, or Indonesian kratom strains to be obtained first since the Nuttana would most likely notice the plant being used as a recreational and medicinal drug there, with a "kratom culture" existing there. Kratom strains from Papua are in fact quite good quality and aren't any weaker or such than other strains, perhaps they'll be discovered later by explorers or some such and obtained by kratom farmers, perhaps grown by itself or cross-bred with other strains.
There's also other factors to the quality and strength of commercial kratom, such as the fact that sun-drying, while the cheapest and easiest method, can degrade alkaloid content. Other methods like flue-curing might be better off, and could preserve / better develop the flavours within the leaves if it's being used for tea or smoked.
I think all of that would come around with eventual R&D. I think that the Europeans might like kratom if marketed as a product not unlike tea or tobacco / kunduri. Certainly it's not a heavy narcotic (if drunk as a tea) like opium, making consumption of it more socially acceptable rather than sequestered away within opium dens or what not.
I imagine that the first Europeans to try it at the Nuttana's offering would be quite taken to it: a clear uplift in energy and in spirits that would last longer than tea or even coffee but with no danger of public rowdiness or overindulgence as with alcohol or opium. The taste would take some getting used to but would just be another excuse for the Nuttana to sell more sugar.
Did some research on different strains of kratom and their geographical distribution and how good they are and would be ITTL as a "commercial product" (i.e. basically as a recreational drug like alcohol but not culturally thought of as such) and it seems there's a whole lot of misinformation and little more than advertising, should be expected since kratom is a booming business especially through online sales.
I think that most strains from around the SEA mainland to Indonesia and even Papua New Guinea are pretty good for the Nuttana to obtain kratom plants from to be cultivated back home.
I expect Thai, Malay, or Indonesian kratom strains to be obtained first since the Nuttana would most likely notice the plant being used as a recreational and medicinal drug there, with a "kratom culture" existing there. Kratom strains from Papua are in fact quite good quality and aren't any weaker or such than other strains, perhaps they'll be discovered later by explorers or some such and obtained by kratom farmers, perhaps grown by itself or cross-bred with other strains.
There's also other factors to the quality and strength of commercial kratom, such as the fact that sun-drying, while the cheapest and easiest method, can degrade alkaloid content. Other methods like flue-curing might be better off, and could preserve / better develop the flavours within the leaves if it's being used for tea or smoked.
I think all of that would come around with eventual R&D. I think that the Europeans might like kratom if marketed as a product not unlike tea or tobacco / kunduri. Certainly it's not a heavy narcotic (if drunk as a tea) like opium, making consumption of it more socially acceptable rather than sequestered away within opium dens or what not.
I imagine that the first Europeans to try it at the Nuttana's offering would be quite taken to it: a clear uplift in energy and in spirits that would last longer than tea or even coffee but with no danger of public rowdiness or overindulgence as with alcohol or opium. The taste would take some getting used to but would just be another excuse for the Nuttana to sell more sugar.
It's possible, though it will take a while to catch on in a large scale.
Crocodile meat possibly, though I'm not sure how popular it will be. To me it just tastes like salty chicken, but my palate may be odd.
Used to be a major industry, being among other things what led to the colonisation of *Tasmania by agricultural peoples. The trade has collapsed in most areas due to overhunting, though. Seals aren't extinct, but tend to live in relatively small numbers in the more accessible areas. Their population has actually rebounded a bit with the human population collapse after Eurasian diseases, though they're still relatively rare.
I experienced the same difficulty when having a general look online.
My expectation would be Java or - if it's grown there - some of the more easterly spice islands. Those are the places where the Nuttana have the the most frequent trade contact. There is some trade with Thailand, particularly for ivory, but it's lower volume.
The Nuttana certainly know about flue-curing for tea already, so it's not too great a leap to make. What they don't know about the equivalent for tobacco, they could find out from the Five Rivers or Europeans easily enough. The general process of flue-curing is hardly a secret, after all.
On a related note, I suspect that most Nuttana sugar trade will be within Aururia and Aotearoa. Sugar is widely grown in Indonesia, PNG and SE Asia already; I'm not sure that there would be much profit margin for the Nuttana in selling it there.
And on an unrelated note, the remaining chapters in the Hunter sequence are somewhere between half and two-thirds written, depending on how bloated writing the last few posts turns out to be. Hopefully within another few weeks.
The Nuttana can plausibly have a greater frequency of trade with Thailand than that, considering the relative importance of Thailand as a trading point for rice. If the Nuttana ever have problems with growing enough food for their own needs, they'll definitely be led towards Siam since everyone else in Asia seems to have gone there to buy rice.
Flue-cured kratom would make a more pleasing tea than the sun-dried equivalent. Nevertheless there would likely be a gradient in quality of kratom produced and methods applied, and perhaps end consumers who can afford it would enjoy the flue-cured product or whatnot while the common rabble will end up with the rest.
I suspect quite the opposite, actually. Sugar was far too valuable and demanded a good for traders to offer much discrimination in who they buy from. Europeans tried to set up their sugar plantations in their American colonies when they could and turned out a lot of sugar, but demand was great enough that sugar from the east made a profit of its own as well. If the Nuttana market their sugar vociferously enough to Europeans, no doubt they'll find more than a few buyers for their sugar stocks. Meaning that sugar will prove a profitable crop for the Nuttana inspite of all the sugar plantations in the Carribean and in Asia.
And at the point in the timeline where we're at, many of those haven't even been set up. So the profits will be even more so.
Rice is imported from Thailand, but it's a luxury foodstuff. When they need basic foodstuffs, they have plenty available closer to home, from the Kiyungu (sweet potatoes, wattles) and New Guinea (sago).
I'd like to look more into the labour requirements for drying it, and indeed whether it can be made more efficient through appropriate machinery. Being rather labour-deprived (particularly with the southern Kiyungu falling to the Dominion), the Nuttana would be keep for anything which could improve that process. If they can make it efficient enough, they may be supplying mostly premium product.
If you're talking trading to Europeans in Europe, certainly possible, though as of yet the Nuttana rarely trade that far.
In these terms, though, I was referring specifically to trading sugar into Indonesia and SE Asia, who I believe were already sugar exporters during this period. Not as much of a market there; even if it can be sold, the relative profit margin is lower than in Aururia and Aotearoa. That said, with some more processing, the Nuttana can still make sugar-derived products which are valued in SE Asia (more of this in one of the forthcoming posts).
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Thailand probably produces a lot more rice and exports it a lot cheaper by this point than the Kiyungu, and definitely the Papuans, can export their foodstuffs. Population and labour force sizes aside, I don't think that something like sago even compares to Thai rice exports - it is far less nutritious and desirable than rice and takes too much labour to produce the end product. The quantity and price of Thai rice definitely makes up for the extra shipping distance in my book.
They definitely can industrialize / mechanize the process and eventually would IMO. The drying process shouldn't require much labour if it's sun-dried or flue-cured, you just need people to lay out the harvested leaves and gather it in the end, and for the latter you need people to feed in fuel. Grinding the leaves can be done with machine, no matter how fine or coarse a grind is desired. There's not much processing involved after that.
I am talking about trading with Europeans in Asia. No one in Indonesia and SE Asia were huge sugar exporters during this period, and in fact sugar cultivation and processing only reached large scales in Indonesia by the late 19th century, under Dutch colonial stewardship. The Nuttana have the upper hand in sugar production over most states in Asia. Remember, with the ramping up of sugar production in the New World and the flooding of the Atlantic trade networks with excess sugar, no one had a monopoly on sugar. No one would mind the different EIC's buying sugar from the Nuttana and either reselling it in Asia or back in Europe, sugar was too in-demand that no matter where it was sourced from it would make good profits in Europe. The Nuttana definitely stand to make some tidy profits by taking their sugar to Asian ports which see a lot of trade traffic from Europe and trading for European goods or whatnot.
After all, the sugar plantations in the Americas were pretty expensive to the Europeans, and ate up capital and labour (even if it were slave labour) like nothing else. You could easily see many of the investors and absentee landlords who put their resources into creating the large slave-run plantations in the New World instead involve themselves in trading for sugar with the Nuttana.
In terms of raw energy yield, white rice and sago pith are comparable. White rice has about 365 (kilo)Calories per 100g, sago pith has around 355. Rice does have more protein, but not enough to be an adequate protein source in itself. Both of them would need protein supplements from elsewhere; wattleseeds, eggs, fish or farmed animals, principally. Both of them have limited other nutritional value; sago has a bit more iron, rice has more B-vitamins, but again not enough for a complete diet. In practical terms, either of them provides the basic energy needs but protein, fat and micronutrients need to come from other sources.
Sago is a useful plant as an export crop since is grown in areas which are otherwise of less use for agriculture, and the labour requirements in comparison to agriculture are low. I'd expect that the New Guinea lowlands could adapt very easily to ramping up sago production as an export crop, using marginal lands, while feeding themselves from their own lands, and trading for desired goods, to everyone's mutual benefit. This makes it pretty cheap, too.
In calculating sailing distances, well, much of it depends which port is picked. I did some rough calculations using Cairns (the middle Nuttana city) as the origin, and Madang on the north coast of Papua New Guinea. A lot of the sago harvesting will actually be closer, since it tends to be around the Gulf of Papua, so if anything this is on the high side, but it will do as an approximate figure. The sailing distance from Cairns to Madang (round trip) is 2580 nautical miles. In comparison, the sailing distance to Bangkok is 7446 nautical miles, or a little under three times the distance.
In other words, the Nuttana could bring in sago from PNG almost three times as fast as they could rice from Bangkok. To me, this suggests that the Nuttana will turn to sago for the bulk of their food inputs, in combination with what can be obtained from the Kiyungu (who also produce food surpluses relatively easily). Which is not to suggest that the Nuttana won't be buying rice. But at least in terms of where things are now, it remains a desired crop for the wealthy rather than a staple for the Nuttana working classes.
I'd also expect that - assuming that the Nuttana survive the Hunter and his times - their population will grow, and it will exceed what can be reliably supplied from New Guinea. At that point, rice imports from Thailand and/or elsewhere will begin to look desirable. But I don't think that they're there yet.
Does the fuel need to be particularly good? As in, does it need good hardwood timber, sawdust, or will any waste fuel do? (In the latter case, they may use sugar cane waste products).
Ah, in terms of trading to Europeans to onsell to European markets, that's possible; I was thinking in terms of local markets. That said, the demand in Aururia and Aotearoa is high too, and can pay pretty well. I'm not sure how much sugar would be left over to sell to Europeans. That would depend in part on the relative prices of sugar in each market, and also on how much sugar the Nuttana can actually grow per year. I need to crunch some numbers on that.
Oh, that's great. Especially the reference to rose myrtle, which I hadn't come across before (or at least, not looked at in detail). Now there's another potential spice I need to explore. First by trying it myself.
The Nuttana had better survive The Hunter... Or else
I like the Nuttana. They have the enterprising spirit it's going to take to compete in the modern world.
I like the Nuttana. They have the enterprising spirit it's going to take to compete in the modern world.
There's no requirement for anything extravagant, just anything that's efficient and wouldn't impart a disagreeable flavour / odour to the curing leaves. Anything from wood, sawdust, bagasse, or coal can be used and have been used historically to flue-cure tobacco.
I'll take a look at trends in global sugar prices IOTL. Generally prices were good in the early 18th century and things took a dive in the 19th century, IIRC. It should also depend on what the Nuttana want in trade for their sugar, the Europeans would have different goods to offer than Aururians and Aotearoans, so there would be a strategic choice in who they trade sugar with.
As with all discussion threads, I try to avoid spoiling the future of the timeline, so I'm not making any blanket statements about the survival or otherwise of the Nuttana yet. Though the Hunter sequence will conclude within ten posts or so, so all will be answered then. (I originally thought 5-7, now most likely 8. Perhaps 9 if things look too bloated.)The Nuttana had better survive The Hunter... Or else
I like the Nuttana. They have the enterprising spirit it's going to take to compete in the modern world.
That said, a glance at a map of Australia would show that the Nuttana have the best odds of any eastern mainland Aururian state of surviving the Hunter, with the possible exception of the Yadji. They are a long way away, across extremely rugged country, with much of it impassable for the rainy season even with 21st-century technology. There's also not really many places to resupply along the way.
The Nuttana have bagasse in quantity. If that's not enough, they may be able to import coal from the Patjimunra (or whoever rules that region after the Crusades era).
Where that gets complicated is that I'd also need to factor in whether the prices sugar could command in Aururia or Aotearoa would in turn obtain goods that Europeans want more. Spices are the most obvious of those, though there are others.
A Dominion land invasion of the Nuttana seems to be too an insurmountable task, I feel as if the only reason the Hunter might attempt it is because the Nuttana are the wrong type of Plirite, and worse, are the most influential Plirite nation around.
I imagine they'd also have plenty of firewood and charcoal from the surrounding forests, considering that it would a useful fuel for general use. It'd be interesting to see an auxiliary industry for processing bagasse into a readily usable transportable fuel, drying the bagasse to a satisfactory moisture level then pressing it into briquettes through mechanical means. Bagasse briquettes would serve well as a generally useful consumer good, as well as inputs for other industries, such as kratom production.
That would be a good strategy if European prices for sugar fall below Aururian prices for sugar.
Conquering the Nuttana has always been on the Hunter's grand ambitions. His vision of conquest, expressed in one of the earlier posts, was: "This much I desire to accomplish in my life: to ride my horse into the sea to north and east and south, and know that I have brought harmony to all the lands through which I have ridden.” They count as part of the north for that purpose. He has been explicitly at war with them since the conquest of the southern Kiyungu.
Of course, translating that ambition into actual conquest is rather a difficult task. Great distance, rather difficult terrain (especially for Wujal/Cooktown), and it's hard to besiege cities which can supply themselves indefinitely via sea.
Raids are not out of the question; their cavalry can travel that far during the dry season. Conquest is rather more difficult unless ravaging the countryside can bring the Nuttana to terms, or if they manage to acquire some ships from somewhere. The Kiyungu are also shipbuilders, albeit not on the same skill level or scale as the Nuttana. The Māori also produce good ships these days, though bargaining with them would be rather more difficult. If the Hunter can gain enough control of spices, he may be able to buy some ships off Europeans, though finding crews would be much harder. (Possibly mercenary European crews.)
That would be an interesting development. Probably mostly used within the Nuttana realm itself, though if they have surplus fuel production possibly ship it as part of ballast cargo to the Kiyungu.
Aozhouhuaren
Banned
Sorry it's an obsession but I've another food-related question, any ideas on what happens to Eastern Aururian aquaculture in general. It seems like it would fit in well with East Asian practices and cuisines.
The eels alone make me think of some sort of glorious Gunditjmara-Japanese fusion food.
The eels alone make me think of some sort of glorious Gunditjmara-Japanese fusion food.
I think the Nuttana can easily produce the first fusion cuisine in Aururia within the 18th century due to their high level of trade. Imagine, Chinese, Japanese, Indians, and other Asians settling in Nuttana cities over time and bringing their cuisines and dishes over? I'd love to try a noodle dish made with red yam starch noodles with wattleseed flour in, perhaps stir-fried with Aururian vegetables and spices and perhaps some noroon. Noroon fried rice sounds good too. It'd be interesting if the Nuttana adopt the wok as one of their main ways of cooking.
What about wattleseed parathas stuffed with red yam? Curries using a combination of Indian and Aururian spices as well as Aururian meats and produce? Tons of intriguing possibilities there, and we could easily see this fusion cuisine filter down southwards by way of the usual trade routes.
What'd be also interesting is if the Nuttana start planting coconut trees in quantity and incorporate coconut milk in their dishes following South East Asian influence.
What about wattleseed parathas stuffed with red yam? Curries using a combination of Indian and Aururian spices as well as Aururian meats and produce? Tons of intriguing possibilities there, and we could easily see this fusion cuisine filter down southwards by way of the usual trade routes.
What'd be also interesting is if the Nuttana start planting coconut trees in quantity and incorporate coconut milk in their dishes following South East Asian influence.