Also Sketchdoodle, the TL was edited by CalBear so that part 1 is now a prologue. Everything before the 2nd part 5 has been brought ahead to normalize the number scheme.
La Serenissima: Venice, Dawn of a New Power 2.0
- Thread starter Franciscus Caesar
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OK! I'll change the numbering on the masterpost!
EDIT: I have a few questions now that I've read a little about colonial adventures.
Would the Duchy of Courland be able to grab some permanent, contiguous territories along the American continents? It is perhaps the smallest polity to ever had a colony(ies) on another continent and a part of me wishes that it would have better luck than OTL.
Related to the first question ; since now that the Serenissima has kick-started the notions of colonial enterprise in Europe, would we see some other Italian states or German kingdoms get in on the adventure? or would the continuing conflicts in Europe keep all but the most powerful at bay? (I have to admit, I kinda want to see the Swedish Empire and Denmark getting a place in the sun here, so this could be just my bias speaking. Also, Genoa too.
) Besides that, how are the other Italian states faring at this point?Thirdly, will the Vice-Royality of New Spain be a large as it is OTL or would Charles' quarrels with Venice and the Ottoman Empire (and the other colonial powers) change the whole makeup of the American continents as we know it? For that matter, how about the Philippines? They were discovered about the same time Venice is traversing in the Indian Ocean and Spain would probably want them as theirs, possibly stating "we found it first!". I can see a possible confrontation building up there, especially if the southern Muslim Sultanates revolt as per OTL. Also, will there be contact between it and the Brunei Empire?
Also, will the Andaman and Nicobar Islands be a plausible place for Venice to start establishing a colony? I would figure that it's proximity to trade routes and it's remoteness from either Malacca or Aceh would make it a suitable vantage point to trade. However, there's also malaria and hostile natives to contend with too. Also, how will the Venetians view the wildlife and plants in the surrounding region? I would guess that they'd have heard of elephants and monkeys, but how would they feel about pitcher plants and the Durian?
Lastly, will Venice's discovery of modern accounting be disseminated to the Indian Ocean kingdoms? I would probably guess to 'no' since they would try to keep their money-making techniques a secret, but considering the nature of this timeline I would guess that anything can happen.
DOUBLE EDIT: Would the Ottomans go as far as Iceland on this timeline? it would be kinda cool to have some history between the Island and the Porte, however distant and wrong.
TRIPLE EDIT: Will the Spanish Silver and the Colombian Exchange change Venice's relationship (and perception) with the Americas?
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I'm thinking that the bishops of Trent would eventually be bribed into the republic, as a state I won't like an almost enclave psuedo-country that swears allegiance to other powers, most likely enemies.
Courland IMHO behaves like an autonomous region of P-L, one of the most powerful nations of Europe during a rather long span of time, if someone on that nation desired to start a colonial adventure, they would have came to Courland, but the funding of that enterprise is on the shoulders of the whole country represented through the wealthy with enough initiative.
sketchdoodle I think we share the same opinion on The Andamans, while the ownership of the Philippines (if they are really named that ITTL) is doubtful at this period we can suppose a conflict. Something that can be almost assured is that the Dutch East Indies are completely butterflied away. Indonesia most likely will become an equivalent of jointly administered British Egypt.
Venice will start with setting outposts in the sultanates for colonizing Indonesia, soon if not before, an alliance will be forged or forced. This would in turn decant in venetian manipulation of the government or at least the heaviest influence at the royal courts. In the end the sultanates will be absorbed, one way or another (and hopefully by the republic).
I don't think Genoa will start with colonies, by that time their economy will be rotten. If Venice secures the new spice route, their power in the Mediterranean their commercial power will skyrocket. In the case that Genoa is not a satellite by that time then they would be nothing, at least by their own. If it wasn't for french Milan and Spanish ambitions the whole of Italy is almost assured to fall sooner or later to the republic.
We are talking about a MONSTER here, if Portugal's back is truly broken in this war around a third of the world's trade would be going through Venetian merchants at some point. If we consider the trade that is flowing into Europe by Venetian-Ottoman holdings, an economic blockade can mean the forceful return of many countries back to subsistence economy; in a context where western powers don't truly grasp this and do not send relief of course... and that can be easy if they decide to keep raging mercantilism.
With a fully secured route such as from the Ptolemaic to Japan, Venice would be the equivalent of Portugal AND the Netherlands at their height.
In two or three decades enough wealth could be amassed by both powers to purchase most of loyalties in the Italian peninsula. I admit that bribing everyone into submission is not the most glorious way to win a war but is one of the most effective ones. Is my hope and desire to have Padania and Umbria under the Lion. That isn't far away if you promise commanders the titles of their leaders, Cardinals more power than what their dynasties and families can offer and the people seeing that being under the government of the neighbor is better for them than their own. Of course this is impossible to archive in less than a century and half, nevertheless the whole of Switzerland worth of mercenaries and the best military leader at the time are not for just showing. We have to consider that Spain and France can claim the same and have an army to back it up. On the other hand, Suleiman already has a foothold in Naples.
In this scenario even and alliance of the HRE, France, Spain and Portugal would have trouble kicking the eastern alliance out of Italy, specially if Austria is a pile of ash between Germany an the Turks. In the end, the eastern alliance would be defeated after a war maybe at the level of devastation the thirty years war brought to Europe, so no one would like to start such a conflict, instead, there would be games of shadows in the peninsula. Principally who can bribe more.
Were the descendants of Suleiman not so careless they would have integrated Persia instead of conforming with the legacy of stealing their capital and vassalizing them. Is does not seem possible for Suleiman to integrate Persia in his reign, keeping them under control in the event they are conquered would be the greatest thorn on the side of the Sultans for generations if done militarily, but can be done. However, with an administration as brilliant as was Ottoman does sound better, doesn't it? Integration is possible, but you can't erase one of the oldest cultures in the world, you have to show them that they can be better under the hand of turkey.
Courland IMHO behaves like an autonomous region of P-L, one of the most powerful nations of Europe during a rather long span of time, if someone on that nation desired to start a colonial adventure, they would have came to Courland, but the funding of that enterprise is on the shoulders of the whole country represented through the wealthy with enough initiative.
sketchdoodle I think we share the same opinion on The Andamans, while the ownership of the Philippines (if they are really named that ITTL) is doubtful at this period we can suppose a conflict. Something that can be almost assured is that the Dutch East Indies are completely butterflied away. Indonesia most likely will become an equivalent of jointly administered British Egypt.
Venice will start with setting outposts in the sultanates for colonizing Indonesia, soon if not before, an alliance will be forged or forced. This would in turn decant in venetian manipulation of the government or at least the heaviest influence at the royal courts. In the end the sultanates will be absorbed, one way or another (and hopefully by the republic).
I don't think Genoa will start with colonies, by that time their economy will be rotten. If Venice secures the new spice route, their power in the Mediterranean their commercial power will skyrocket. In the case that Genoa is not a satellite by that time then they would be nothing, at least by their own. If it wasn't for french Milan and Spanish ambitions the whole of Italy is almost assured to fall sooner or later to the republic.
We are talking about a MONSTER here, if Portugal's back is truly broken in this war around a third of the world's trade would be going through Venetian merchants at some point. If we consider the trade that is flowing into Europe by Venetian-Ottoman holdings, an economic blockade can mean the forceful return of many countries back to subsistence economy; in a context where western powers don't truly grasp this and do not send relief of course... and that can be easy if they decide to keep raging mercantilism.
With a fully secured route such as from the Ptolemaic to Japan, Venice would be the equivalent of Portugal AND the Netherlands at their height.
In two or three decades enough wealth could be amassed by both powers to purchase most of loyalties in the Italian peninsula. I admit that bribing everyone into submission is not the most glorious way to win a war but is one of the most effective ones. Is my hope and desire to have Padania and Umbria under the Lion. That isn't far away if you promise commanders the titles of their leaders, Cardinals more power than what their dynasties and families can offer and the people seeing that being under the government of the neighbor is better for them than their own. Of course this is impossible to archive in less than a century and half, nevertheless the whole of Switzerland worth of mercenaries and the best military leader at the time are not for just showing. We have to consider that Spain and France can claim the same and have an army to back it up. On the other hand, Suleiman already has a foothold in Naples.
In this scenario even and alliance of the HRE, France, Spain and Portugal would have trouble kicking the eastern alliance out of Italy, specially if Austria is a pile of ash between Germany an the Turks. In the end, the eastern alliance would be defeated after a war maybe at the level of devastation the thirty years war brought to Europe, so no one would like to start such a conflict, instead, there would be games of shadows in the peninsula. Principally who can bribe more.
Were the descendants of Suleiman not so careless they would have integrated Persia instead of conforming with the legacy of stealing their capital and vassalizing them. Is does not seem possible for Suleiman to integrate Persia in his reign, keeping them under control in the event they are conquered would be the greatest thorn on the side of the Sultans for generations if done militarily, but can be done. However, with an administration as brilliant as was Ottoman does sound better, doesn't it? Integration is possible, but you can't erase one of the oldest cultures in the world, you have to show them that they can be better under the hand of turkey.
I would almost rather want the Serene Republic to colonise the islands and lands that the other sultanates would not want or have any claims to, seeing that placing a colony on an existing kingdom whom you want to work with would probably make the rulers unhappy. Then again, Venice would probably want to monopolize trade and to do that they would have to do a little warring with some of the existing cities. Agreed with you on the absorbing-to-the-republic part, though.
Also, you promised us a Christmas update, Franciscus...
although if the storm is really bad up north then I hope you are alright!
Deleted member 67076
Excellent timeline, nice to see the Venetians doing well.
Will Venice get any New World Colonies?
Will Venice get any New World Colonies?
Happy New Year all, welcome to 2014! I'm sorry to all for my sudden hiatus.
For those who may be interested, after the storm the entire family decided to take a different approach to the holidays, having all further festivities up in cottage country. I left the computer with my work files (including the files for this TL) at home in order to (or at least try to) get full enjoyment out of the time spent with my extended family.
I'll spend the next week settling back into the grind, opting to hopefully post sometime by the end of the week once I've caught up on work from the holidays. That way I can hopefully get back into a (mostly) regular posting regime.
Other than extensive tree damage everything is fine, thanks! Definitely didn't promise that, knowing how hectic Christmas time is here. I will try to make it up to everyone though, with the an extra length next update.
That's a hell of a session, good stuff! Thanks.
Thanks. I recall stating earlier in the thread that the answer to this question was almost sure to be a no, but in drafting future parts its possible that (at least for a time) the Republic will hold some lands in the new world within the next 2 decades. This will depend on how the current arc ultimately plays out.
Much appreciated
I'll admit I haven't included Courland into the TL as of yet. You know I share your sentiment of having OTL's obscure/forgotten/David nations have more of an impact ITTL if possible, and seeing a different history for the Duchy would definitely be interesting.
As I've said, I can't realistically see any Italian states grabbing anything outside of the Mediterranean at least. Their attitudes towards Venice are definitely hostile, and continue to grow that way with every Venetian victory. In terms of German colonies overseas, as seen in the case of Courland I don't see a reason why they can't do the same, though reformation turmoils may put a damper on any attempts. Sweden and Denmark you'll just have to wait and see!
This will all be answered very soon... Exciting stuff, I assure you!
Hah, well said! Going with the intended natural flow of things, Venice will not be the most equitable partner in terms of tech/innovation sharing. Instead we can expect more of a leaching attitude from La Serenissima towards its friends.
I hadn't thought of this. Very interesting idea.
For the most part you're pretty spot-on. Much of the way Venetian colonization will play out in the region will depend on how events in Europe develop, which involve many unforeseen bumps ahead.
With the current state of affairs ITTL this is well put and likely. However things always change...
I'm curious where you got the 1/3 figure. Any website/book with such info would be appreciated.
Ah, such a beautiful thought. Here's hoping all plays out in a way where this can be achieved...
You're correct that it isn't the most glamorous way at going about things, but you're also exactly right that this, as well as the awarding of other titles and such will be the key to Venice's expansion into Italy, as well as keeping the stability of its holdings. This will be seen very soon.
This is not an area I'm well versed in, but I have to say it sounds fascinating. If this can be achieved, even without Venice the events of TTL will be vastly different than those of our reality, with this different Ottoman giant. I'm very excited to see how this develops
For those who may be interested, after the storm the entire family decided to take a different approach to the holidays, having all further festivities up in cottage country. I left the computer with my work files (including the files for this TL) at home in order to (or at least try to) get full enjoyment out of the time spent with my extended family.
I'll spend the next week settling back into the grind, opting to hopefully post sometime by the end of the week once I've caught up on work from the holidays. That way I can hopefully get back into a (mostly) regular posting regime.
Also, you promised us a Christmas update, Franciscus...
Other than extensive tree damage everything is fine, thanks! Definitely didn't promise that, knowing how hectic Christmas time is here. I will try to make it up to everyone though, with the an extra length next update.
That's a hell of a session, good stuff! Thanks.
Thanks. I recall stating earlier in the thread that the answer to this question was almost sure to be a no, but in drafting future parts its possible that (at least for a time) the Republic will hold some lands in the new world within the next 2 decades. This will depend on how the current arc ultimately plays out.
Much appreciated
I'll admit I haven't included Courland into the TL as of yet. You know I share your sentiment of having OTL's obscure/forgotten/David nations have more of an impact ITTL if possible, and seeing a different history for the Duchy would definitely be interesting.
Related to the first question ; since now that the Serenissima has kick-started the notions of colonial enterprise in Europe, would we see some other Italian states or German kingdoms get in on the adventure? or would the continuing conflicts in Europe keep all but the most powerful at bay? (I have to admit, I kinda want to see the Swedish Empire and Denmark getting a place in the sun here, so this could be just my bias speaking. Also, Genoa too.
As I've said, I can't realistically see any Italian states grabbing anything outside of the Mediterranean at least. Their attitudes towards Venice are definitely hostile, and continue to grow that way with every Venetian victory. In terms of German colonies overseas, as seen in the case of Courland I don't see a reason why they can't do the same, though reformation turmoils may put a damper on any attempts. Sweden and Denmark you'll just have to wait and see!
This will all be answered very soon... Exciting stuff, I assure you!
Hah, well said! Going with the intended natural flow of things, Venice will not be the most equitable partner in terms of tech/innovation sharing. Instead we can expect more of a leaching attitude from La Serenissima towards its friends.
I hadn't thought of this. Very interesting idea.
For the most part you're pretty spot-on. Much of the way Venetian colonization will play out in the region will depend on how events in Europe develop, which involve many unforeseen bumps ahead.
With the current state of affairs ITTL this is well put and likely. However things always change...
I'm curious where you got the 1/3 figure. Any website/book with such info would be appreciated.
Ah, such a beautiful thought. Here's hoping all plays out in a way where this can be achieved...
You're correct that it isn't the most glamorous way at going about things, but you're also exactly right that this, as well as the awarding of other titles and such will be the key to Venice's expansion into Italy, as well as keeping the stability of its holdings. This will be seen very soon.
This is not an area I'm well versed in, but I have to say it sounds fascinating. If this can be achieved, even without Venice the events of TTL will be vastly different than those of our reality, with this different Ottoman giant. I'm very excited to see how this develops
Luzon would most likely remain under Bruneian suzerainty, that is if the nobles in Luzon planted by the Bruneians after they crushed Tondo stay loyal and there are no traitors in their ranks would ally in order to crush their ruling kin.
Hey all. Just an update:
Firstly, just to hedge anyone from asking first, a new part will be up shortly.
Secondly, in writing and based on some of the questions being asked in the discussion, I realize the last few parts, and the next few (most likely, depending on how I decide to play it) have little to do with the rest of the world, focusing virtually exclusively on Venice's affairs in Europe and the Indian Ocean. As has been said, lots is happening in Europe and Asia during these time with much of it being pertinent to this TL. I have started on some supplementary parts that will go up soon, covering what is happening outside of the very TL-specific events at this time (including the reformation).
Great stuff!
Firstly, just to hedge anyone from asking first, a new part will be up shortly.
Secondly, in writing and based on some of the questions being asked in the discussion, I realize the last few parts, and the next few (most likely, depending on how I decide to play it) have little to do with the rest of the world, focusing virtually exclusively on Venice's affairs in Europe and the Indian Ocean. As has been said, lots is happening in Europe and Asia during these time with much of it being pertinent to this TL. I have started on some supplementary parts that will go up soon, covering what is happening outside of the very TL-specific events at this time (including the reformation).
nice TL definitely will be following this
Great stuff!
That's it.
OK! Bumping up this thread for the sake of discussion! It’s been empty and quiet for too long now!
From what some books and internet sources I’ve read, Austria-Hungary had a surprising colonial venture in the early-middle 18th century. In my books, founding a trading company and wanting some colonies of their own was already an achievement, considering the complicated political state of the Empire and its enemies. If Austria-Hungary would manage to get hold of a seacoast or a port, then I could see such a colonial adventure going on, even if it would mean angering the Serenissima and the Ottomans.
Besides that, with earlier European exploration of the Pacific, what are the chances that Australia and New Zealand would be discovered ITTL? Hmm, Venetian Australia…
(Also, New Caledonia and the Solomon Islands; They could set up as nice staging posts to the Americas, assuming that Hawaii isn't discovered yet in the near future).
OK! Bumping up this thread for the sake of discussion! It’s been empty and quiet for too long now!
From what some books and internet sources I’ve read, Austria-Hungary had a surprising colonial venture in the early-middle 18th century. In my books, founding a trading company and wanting some colonies of their own was already an achievement, considering the complicated political state of the Empire and its enemies. If Austria-Hungary would manage to get hold of a seacoast or a port, then I could see such a colonial adventure going on, even if it would mean angering the Serenissima and the Ottomans.
Besides that, with earlier European exploration of the Pacific, what are the chances that Australia and New Zealand would be discovered ITTL? Hmm, Venetian Australia…
(Also, New Caledonia and the Solomon Islands; They could set up as nice staging posts to the Americas, assuming that Hawaii isn't discovered yet in the near future).
Besides that, with earlier European exploration of the Pacific, what are the chances that Australia and New Zealand would be discovered ITTL? Hmm, Venetian Australia…
(Also, New Caledonia and the Solomon Islands; They could set up as nice staging posts to the Americas, assuming that Hawaii isn't discovered yet in the near future).
As it was, it would appear from recent scholarship that the Portuguese "discovered" Australia perhaps several decades earlier than Tasman. It is a very far place to be sending colonizing Europeans in the 16th C. and they would have found it a rather foreboding and deadly place. I think there were good reasons that Australia wasn't successfully colonized until the late 18th C.
And New Zealand? More remote, and populated by a culture that will not make nice with the Europeans.
But the biggest reason the Venetians would not be interested in Oceania is that cultures there have very little that the Venetians would want.
The much closer East Indies seem to be a more attractive place to a colonizing trading culture. Closer to the big kahunas (ducat signs flashing in the eyes of the Venetians) -- India and China. Speaking of which, I would think that Venice would be more interested in carving out trading enclaves in India and in or near China. The Indian Ocean would be more conducive to being the Serene Republic's playground (if they can bump off the Portuguese). Not the Pacific.
Oh damn, I forgot about that.
Now let's see, New Zealand had some jade, but the Venetians could go just to China for that. Australia also had some semi-precious rocks and minerals, but they weren't found out until the colonialism gig went on it's full swing. There was an at-the-time misconception that the Terra Australis had some gold, but never enough to warrant full exploration. Tall trees for ship repairs can be found all over the tropics, and South East Asia is as exotic and cultured as the region could get from the Serenissima's point of view...
Oh well, it was a far-fetched idea anyway.
Oh yeah, how are the wars in the Indian Ocean affecting the Maldives? For such a low-lying country, the island nation is sure convenient for any ally playing the waters between Arabia and SE-Asia.
Wiki note
The other essential product of the Maldives was coir, the fiber of the dried coconut husk. Cured in pits, beaten, spun and then twisted into cordage and ropes, coir's salient quality is its resistance to saltwater. It stitched together and rigged the dhows that plied the Indian Ocean. Maldivian coir was exported to Sindh, China, Yemen, and the Persian Gulf.
"It is stronger than hemp", wrote Ibn Battuta, "and is used to sew together the planks of Sindhi and Yemeni dhows, for this sea abounds in reefs, and if the planks were fastened with iron nails, they would break into pieces when the vessel hit a rock. The coir gives the boat greater elasticity, so that it doesn't break up."
Sounds like Venice could use this technology and a good ally with a nice location off of the tip of the South West Indian Coast.
The other essential product of the Maldives was coir, the fiber of the dried coconut husk. Cured in pits, beaten, spun and then twisted into cordage and ropes, coir's salient quality is its resistance to saltwater. It stitched together and rigged the dhows that plied the Indian Ocean. Maldivian coir was exported to Sindh, China, Yemen, and the Persian Gulf.
"It is stronger than hemp", wrote Ibn Battuta, "and is used to sew together the planks of Sindhi and Yemeni dhows, for this sea abounds in reefs, and if the planks were fastened with iron nails, they would break into pieces when the vessel hit a rock. The coir gives the boat greater elasticity, so that it doesn't break up."
Sounds like Venice could use this technology and a good ally with a nice location off of the tip of the South West Indian Coast.
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Hmm… coir does sound like one of the things the Serene Republic could find handy, and the locality of the base materials to produce it means that the Venetians would find it hard to mass-produce a similar rope of their own (as well as the limits of mass production in the timeframe, at least).
Other than that, I just found out that when European traders came to India, they also bought with them the art of Pietra Dura, a European style of decoration that’s most often seen in the Taj Mahal. With an Italian power traversing the Indian Ocean this early, I wonder just how much of Italian art and culture can be disseminated to the kingdoms and empires surrounding the rim, as well as how much of their culture be brought back to the Italian side. Considering the race to build ever-grander structures ITTL, I wouldn’t think it out of the ordinary for a Venetian merchant to build something akin to the Brighton Pavilion!
La Serenissima does not have the manpower to really oppress a colony, so they will have to seek native cooperation, and that's not so hard when you think about the commercial benefits the court of a land can have with venetian support/trade treaties. The venetian military cannot force them to do so, due to that we can hopefully expect subtler and less bloody ways to establish a colony and colonies that are a lot more supportive to their overlords, ones that are not forced but instead fight on their own will to help Venice...
I think that we can hope to have a more humanitarian colonial period in Venice.
Also I'm curious about the administration of the Republic on their municipal level equivalent, but we should see more of that when they start nomning the Italian peninsula. Also, with republicanism on the rise in Lombardia, can we hope that the Swiss confederacy will start drifting towards Venetia in the ideological side as well as, probably, having most of their mercenaries under a contract with the republic? But this may or may not happen after Portugal is beaten. Why we don't have more discussion about the war and not about what's coming after it?
I think that we can hope to have a more humanitarian colonial period in Venice.
Also I'm curious about the administration of the Republic on their municipal level equivalent, but we should see more of that when they start nomning the Italian peninsula. Also, with republicanism on the rise in Lombardia, can we hope that the Swiss confederacy will start drifting towards Venetia in the ideological side as well as, probably, having most of their mercenaries under a contract with the republic? But this may or may not happen after Portugal is beaten. Why we don't have more discussion about the war and not about what's coming after it?
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