Kriegmarine sorties against invasion of France?

torten

The idea of the Germans sending the remains of their small surface fleet against an invasion of France is admittedly far-fetched at the first glance, but when given over to closer examination is admittedly a reasonably plausible idea for the Nazis to think up (Very ambitious, suicidal and wasteful!)

The simple idea would be, when the main invasion forces land, send any available ships, from battleships to destroyers down to the French coast to hack through resistance from any screening forces and attack resupply ships, hopefully damaging the supply train of the Allies enough so that the heer can crush the beachheads.

While the chances of such a sortie being successful are very low, due to how outmatched German naval forces were in 1944, and the fact that the air cover provided by the Luftwaffe would be outnumbered by the RAF and USAAF and the ships would be vulnerable to air attack.

The Germans could deploy a reasonable number of ships, depending on the POD. If the order is issued after the sinking of Scharnhorst in late 1943, even then the Germans could muster at least one Admiral Hipper class cruiser, possibly two if Admiral Hipper herself could be repaired in time. The Germans also have the two surviving 'pocket battleships' and the four surviving light cruisers. I haven't researched destroyers, but I expect the Germans could find some to screen the fleet.

I expect the sortie would end either in or slightly east of the straits of Dover, when the fleet is either destroyed by a superior naval force, attacked by torpedo bombers or dive bombers or a combination of the two.

Another problem is that the Germans would likely be unwilling to commit their grand fleet against a mere decoy invasion force, and by the time the Germans realise that Normandy invasion is the only invasion (When did they realise this OTL?), the fleets task goes from hopeless to impossible. Wherever or not the fleet would still sortie, is another question.

TLDR: Kriegsmarine attempts Leyte Gulf style sortie on Allied invasion fleet.

So, how likely is it that Germany would attempt this kind of plan?

How much of an abject failure would it be?

What effects would it have on the rest of the war?
 

Finbarr the Fair

Lost Freeway said:
Have Operation Tungsten not happen, and Tirpitz could be in good enough shape to sortie come D-Day.
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It's a long way from Norway, or the Baltic, via the Channel bottleneck, to the coast of Normandy. I would expect the Kriegsmarine to experience something like the death ride of the IJN as it tried to reach Leyte Gulf. And given the number of battleships, cruisers and destroyers on bombardment duty off Normandy, any ships that survived would do little damage before being destroyed. For Tirpitz read Mushashi, and think the Surigao straight (?) action rather than Kurita.

Be interesting to game it out but I'd hate to be the German player!
 

Finbarr the Fair

Ps I think it very unlikely that Hitler would order or sanction such an action. But given his contradictory and inconsistent attitude to the surface fleet I suppose it's not impossible.
 

King Augeas

Given Allied power, it's a suicide mission. That doesn't mean it can't succeed, just that the ships and men aren't coming back. The only hope is to charge down the Channel at night, break through the Allied Armada, run the ships aground on the invasion beaches and shoot up as many transports as possible.

So let's see, it's about 470 nautical miles from Wilhelmshaven to the beaches. If they charge along at 30 knots, then that'll take 15 hours. Hmmm. June 7th at Le Havre has 4 hours 20 mins of astronomical twilight and two hours of nautical twilight (and no actual "night", amusingly enough). So that's 6.5 hours of night cover, after which the ships need to be hitting the beaches. So at the start of those 6.5 hours, they will be about 200 nm away, or between Suffolk and Holland. Meaning that recon has about 8.5 hours to find them after they leave port, and two hours after they round the Frisian islands and start entering the Broad Forteens before night falls.

This is probably impossible to do undetected. Even if you do manage it and, then the Channel is heaving with recon who will detect you. Plus there must be radar around Dover to pick you up. So you can't surprise the beaches, which means that the naval fleet will intercept you, regardless of air attack during day or night. What was I saying about not meaning it can't succeed?
 

torten

Lost Freeway said:
Have Operation Tungsten not happen, and Tirpitz could be in good enough shape to sortie come D-Day.
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Interesting idea. If Operation Tungsten doesn't happen or isn't as successful, the RN would be reluctant to draw any covering forces away from the Tirpitz to intercept, less the Tirpitz escape into the North Atlantic and attacks shipping, thus marginally increasing chances of success.
 

Tyr Anazasi

Banned
The German 5th torpedo boat flotilla, Korvettenkapitän Heinrich Hoffmann, made an attack with three torpedo boats on the landing forces on June 6th with 15 torpedoes narrowly missing the battleships HMS Warspite, HMS Ramilies and the Largs, a command ship. Therefore either Möwe or Jaguar hit the Norwegian destroyer Svenner sinking her with two torpedoes. This was the only success of German surface forces on that morning.
 

torten

Lost Freeway said:
Who cares about battleships? Let's just deluge the Germans in torpedo bombers Ten-Go-style.
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If the Germans retain any sense, then they would pass the fleet through the channel at the night. As stated in King Augeus post, the Germans have about 6.5 hours of night cover on June 7th, if the Germans decide to go later in the month, then the length of night cover will be about 15 minutes shorter. I don't know how good British torpedo bombers were at night flying, but any attack would definitely be during the way.

King Augeas said:
Meaning that recon has about 8.5 hours to find them after they leave port, and two hours after they round the Frisian islands and start entering the Broad Fourteens before night falls.
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As stated in the post above the German fleet has about 8.5 hours of daylight to be spotted after they leave Wilhelmshaven. Now the chances of them getting spotted in this time are high but to be able to launch a torpedo attack from Dover, I guess you would need to spot the fleet at least two hours before to manage a sortie. (This includes the time taken for the information to go from the pilot to coastal command, to the torpedo bombers, to actual flight time) Even then, I don't know how many Torpedo bombers were armed and on alert for anti-shipping duties in 1944 (Wouldn't expect more than 10), and to arm further planes with torpedos would of course take time. Then the allies would need to send fighter cover to fight through the Luftwaffe CAP which I would expect to exist in some form.

So while I would expect the RAF/FAA to sortie, the size and timing of the sortie depends on when the fleet is spotted.
 

HMS Warspite

Historically the Kriegsmarine did just that sortie, at least with the forces capable of reaching the Normandie waters. These were the smaller forces mainly of the Zerstörergrupe 8 (8. Z-Flottille (Kpt.z.S. v. Bechtolsheim) mitZ 32,Z 24,ZH 1undT 24 von Brest), Torpedobootsflotille 5 (5. T-Flottille mitT 28,MöweundJaguar) and several S-Boote Flottilen (5. S-Flottille mitS 84,S 100,S 136,S 138undS 142), (9. S-Flottille mitS 130,S 144,S 146,S 150undS 167), (4. S-Flottille mitS 169,S 171,S 172, S 173,S 187undS 188) and (2. S-Flottille mitS 177,S 179,S 189undS 178). This was all there was in the Chanel area and North West France. All these Kriegsmarine Units mentioned fought as good as possible against all odds, most of them until going down. Ships further away were completely blocked off by overwheleming Allied airpower over the Northsea and geographical reasons.
 

Carl Schwamberger

IIRC there were two German small craft in the path of the invasion fleet. One was intending to service a Luftwaffe navigation bouy. The other on general patrol. Both were 'overrun' by the invasion fleet. If my information is correct the boat of the service task ran straight south & abandoned the boat on on the beach somewhere in the British zone. The other may have made back to its base @ Le Hrave.

Any surface force coming from the North Sea during dark on 6th June would have first passed a outer patrol at the south end of the N Sea. Next it would have passed the diversion force aimed at Pas de Calais. If it spotted this group odds are it would have assumed, as many German commanders did that morning, it was the main invasion force and attacked it. As that developed the Allied security force further south would have sent a reaction group reconnoitering north to locate & harass the intruders. If the intruders did not retire the battle fleet would have been deployed to deal with them.

I can't recall the composition of the Pas de Calais diversion force. Should not be difficult to locate.
 

merlin

It wouldn't be just the torpedo bombers sent against them, there would be hundreds of rockets of there way from Typhoons, Mossies, and Beaufighters.
 

mattep74

If the Germans sally the entire surface fleet en masse i guess that their u-boats will get orders also to move with all haste towards Normandy. Did not the allies drop mines at pas de Calais btw? Also, if the German battleships are along and sunk that will have a butterfly effect in East preussia in 1945 when the Red army comes. The battleships were used as artillery against the red army and without them Königsberg might fall sooner. Also, every mine sweeper destroyed in the north sea is one that can not escored refugeeships in early 1945
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Carl Schwamberger said:
IIRC there were two German small craft in the path of the invasion fleet. One was intending to service a Luftwaffe navigation bouy. The other on general patrol. Both were 'overrun' by the invasion fleet. If my information is correct the boat of the service task ran straight south & abandoned the boat on on the beach somewhere in the British zone. The other may have made back to its base @ Le Hrave.

Any surface force coming from the North Sea during dark on 6th June would have first passed a outer patrol at the south end of the N Sea. Next it would have passed the diversion force aimed at Pas de Calais. If it spotted this group odds are it would have assumed, as many German commanders did that morning, it was the main invasion force and attacked it. As that developed the Allied security force further south would have sent a reaction group reconnoitering north to locate & harass the intruders. If the intruders did not retire the battle fleet would have been deployed to deal with them.

I can't recall the composition of the Pas de Calais diversion force. Should not be difficult to locate.
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The Calais diversion force (Operation Glimmer) was comprised of 28 H.D.M.L. (Harbor Defense Motor Launch). These were light "green water" patrol boats with only light armament.

H.D.M.L.

StateLibQld_1_79147_Royal_Australian_Naval_ship_ML_1322_at_Colmslie_Naval_Base%2C_Brisbane%2C_ca._1944.jpg


They were meant to act as decoys, although they were also in place as a distant screening force. Any shipping headed out of the North Sea would have been forced to go through their lines. There was a smaller screening force with four H.D.M.L and six RAF High Speed Launches at the southern end of the Channel (Operation Taxable) performing the same task.

High Speed Launch

HSL_164_with_RAF_Hurricane_off_Colombo_c1943.jpg


These very light forces were only meant as speedbumps and a way to give some early warning beyond the picket DD patrol areas. (There is some disagreement on actual number of boats employed in each operation. wiki, the source of the photos indicated 18 boats for "Taxable", the actual operational plan indicates 10

Inside the Channel there were four divisions of destroyers dedicated to covierng the are outside the assault zone. These were backed up by a reaction force of four USN DD. There were also four ASW groups consisted of five DD/FF patroling the perimeter of the assault zone.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/Admin-Hist/147.5-ComNavEu/ComNavEu-4.html#part4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Day_naval_deceptions#Glimmer_and_Taxable
 

Carl Schwamberger

CalBear said:
The Calais diversion force (Operation Glimmer) was comprised of 28 H.D.M.L. (Harbor Defense Motor Launch). These were light "green water" patrol boats with only light armament.

.......



They were meant to act as decoys, although they were also in place as a distant screening force. Any shipping headed out of the North Sea would have been forced to go through their lines. There was a smaller screening force with four H.D.M.L and six RAF High Speed Launches at the southern end of the Channel (Operation Taxable) performing the same task.

.....

Inside the Channel there were four divisions of destroyers dedicated to covierng the are outside the assault zone. These were backed up by a reaction force of four USN DD. There were also four ASW groups consisted of five DD/FF patroling the perimeter of the assault zone.
Click to expand...

They worked as decoys. German messages indicate they thought there was a enemy force off the coast. We might assume a warning about this invasion fleet would be forwarded to the hypothetical naval anti invasion surface group. What might happen then is a guess. Would the German fleet deploy and attack the enemy fleet in the warning? How long would they spend trying to find the enemy before moving on into the Channel? The diversion force laid some mines. No indication in any of these sources exactly where or how many.

Days later the German leaders were bragging to the Japanese ambassador how the Allied invasion aimed at the Calais region had been defeated at sea.
 

Cryhavoc101

Lost Freeway said:
Unfortunately, by 1944 the Royal Navy made a point to keep Warspite away from enemy warships due to her age and condition.
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No the real reason is that it would have been unsporting - its obvious that Warspite - granted a bit beaten up and yes 1 of her turrets was not working - but she would have easily sunk the Tirpitz ;)
 
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