Khazaria survives
- Thread starter Sgt Detritus
- Start date
No definitely Rus, Cumans only get moving later. There is a theory that there is a waning of Khazar power as the Pechenegs rise, but steppe empires usually go out with a bang rather than a long decline.
Weren't they bashed by all their neighbours (as well as some of their subject tribes)?
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
The Khazars were a bit more than your typical steppe empire, though.
Their downfall was caused by a civil war and subsequent movement of the Magyars into Hungary. It funny how much Europe owes to a the Byzantines and Khazars, and nobody seems to know it (outside of this board, of course!).
The Magyars are in Hungary from the early 10th c though? Sarkel is plundered in 965, so they are clearly hanging on.
I think the practice of not allowing the ruler to go more than a few miles from the palace an intriguing one.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
I meant that the Magyars were an important part of the Khazar empire and their departure left a serious vacuum - after that, they just weren't strong enough to survive in the long-term.
I'm not sure if it's legendary or not, but when a Khagan was being enthroned, a gold chord was put around his neck and he was asked how long he would reign - if that day came, the chord was put back in a more aggressive way...
Doesn't this go back to the Pechenegs? Are they not the ones who push out the Magyars, my memory is hazy on this. If so this just pulls back to the issue of why the Khazars no longer have the strength to support the Magyars.
This seems a good incentive to plan for a long reign.
Stalker
Banned
Quite an interesting cryptohistorical observation.
Alas, I've always thought that a) the Magyars moved to Hungary in the end of 9th century, and almost no trace of theirs had been left at lower Volga by 965 when Svyatoslav the Brave ruined Khasaria, took Itil and then sacked Sarkel. All civil wars in Khasaria had been finished by that time as the Judaists embraced power over that Turkic nation and converted some of them into Judaism.
That's interesting as in the future of my Second Heptarchy TL I have the Norwegian Empire being one of the three major powers in Europe, the others being the Byzantine and Khazars
Well, u can have an ASB fly-over and make some of Byzantine reform (after all, the Byzantines did have a habbit of losing their empire and reclaiming it within a century).
Maybe the Byzantines take the Khazars with them, and the Khazar empire halts any further tribal movement, enabling them to become a medieval state and fight-off the Vikings.
Actually there were a few other Jewish states in history (there was at least one in Yemen).
...however, Jewish states were nonetheless quite rare.
Stalker
Banned
Bearing in mind that it was Jewish only on the top with the rest of its Turkic population being still pagan...
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Quite an interesting cryptohistorical observation.
Alas, I've always thought that a) the Magyars moved to Hungary in the end of 9th century, and almost no trace of theirs had been left at lower Volga by 965 when Svyatoslav the Brave ruined Khasaria, took Itil and then sacked Sarkel. All civil wars in Khasaria had been finished by that time as the Judaists embraced power over that Turkic nation and converted some of them into Judaism.
Did you read my subsequent post or do you just troll around looking for an excuse to use
s? One Wikipedia article and everyone thinks they're an expert.The Magyars were a critical component of the Khazar empire. Their departure left a bad power vacuum that caused a permanent weakening of Khazar power and left them less capable of dealing with threats - coupled with their civil war, they were just never the same thing.
The Byzantines lasted until 1453, but Manzikert in 1071 is what permanently crippled them, and 1204 left them a pale shadow. If I said that the Fourth Crusade left them too weak to deal with the Ottomans, would you post a
even though one was 249 years after the other?Keenir
Banned
Bearing in mind that it was Jewish only on the top with the rest of its Turkic population being still pagan...
you mean Muslim and Christian.
Stalker
Banned
Oh, Muslims were hired mercenaries in Khazar armies. AFAIR, Ibn Fadlan wrote about that. What concerns Christians, I fear there were quite a few of them among Khazars themselves. Alans (Osetinians) who during some periods paid tribute were baptised in the beginning of 10th century...
Look where I am from and, maybe, then you'll come to understanding that it's a little bit more that a single Wikipedia article...Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Especially when I am very interested particularly in Svyatoslav's time...If you want to put it this way, OK. I doubt, however, that Magyars were a CRITICAL part of Khazar military machine. They were used as federates in fighting as well as sometimes Alans when they didn't fight Khazars, as well as 4 easternmost Pecheneg (Kangar) tribes, as well as the "Black" Bulgarians, as well as the Burtases who were obliged to supply the Khazars with 10 000 cavalry, etc... Hungarians were an important part back in the end of 9th century but I doubt they caused the crisis. It's rather a crisis within Khazaria caused their departure to the West. But the Kaganate still remained strong. Very strong!Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
I'll have to see what can be done to save Khazaria. My first guess is to avoid religious segregation within the Kaganate itself.