Khazaria on the Dniepr

[JHPier]

What do you think of this?


Khazaria on the Dniepr

There is a notion that Kiev may have started as a Khazar outpost before being taken over by the Varangians.

WI this was more firmly established?

So let's suppose as POD that in the early 9C there was a rebellion among the Slavs inhabiting the Kiev area concomitant with the troubles that included the Magyar migration to the western Ukrainian steppe. The rebels manage to ambush and kill a member of the ruling Khazar dynasty. This, for the sake of the honor of said dynasty, requires stronger measures than otherwise would have been considered necessary - to wit the planting of a fairly substantial garrison on the site of Kiev. This garrison starts to attract Khazar settlers. (By the 9C most Khazars, appear to have settled down in sedentary, farming villages.) It is progressively strengthened as the Magyars to the south are getting more and more independent.

Ca. 860: The first Varangian adventurers (Askold and Dir) appear on the scene. The Khazar garrison is just strong enough to repel their assault. (Obviously these Varangians aren't in a position to attack Constantinople.)

Ca.880: A second Varangian attack requires the sending of a relief army from Sarkel to repulse.

From 890 onward: Pecheneg attacks wipe out the sedentary Khazar population of the Don-Volga area and drive the Magyars into Hungary. A lot of sedentary Khazars seek refuge in the Kiev area. Cut off from the khagan's domains the local prince becomes de facto independent (though he continues to pay tribute for about a century). Under the predatory raids of the Pechenegs Slavs and Khazars are thrown together. The ruling prince actively spreads the Jewish faith amongst his subjects.

10C: The new Khazar kingdom spreads over the Dniepr basin from the edge of the steppe north to surroundings of [Smolensk], assimilating (not all that peacefully) its Slavic population. Despite the Pechenegs trade relations are maintained with Byzantium.

 

[Nicole]

So is this Kievan Khazaria going to end up a Jewish State? I like it so far, it seems plausible.

 

[Midgard]

The only issue of sorts I see with it is that Kiev, as an independent entity, has been known to exist since at least Ist century AD, accordingly to the results of archaeological findings on the site (despite the popular founding date in late Vth century) - which is likely to have been before the Khazars' migration west. Even then, by mid-VIIIth century, the population of Kiev would have been predominantly Slavic, with the Norse (the Varyagi of early Russian history) representing a portion of the ruling class, and some of the mercenary component in the army. Thus, in order to allow for the Khazar Kiev, the Khazars would have had to conquer the city rather than found it.

Now, say, if in the late VIIIth century a particularly lucky or determined Khazar leader decided to take Kiev and hold it, and settle the city with the Khazars to where they become if not the majority, then a sufficient contingent to prevent assimilation into the Slav population, this may result in Kiev becoming the capital (or a major city) of the Khazar Kaganate. With this in mind though, a great possible POD there.

With respect to religion, from what I remember the Khazars converted to Judaism as a way to profess their neutrality between the Orthodox Byzantines, Islamic Caliphate, and pagan Russians - however, if the center of Khazar power is shifted west, there are going to be much less contact with the Caliphate, and being that Khazars were not known for their shipbuilding skills, likely to be less raids on Constantinople and surrounding areas, thus creating enough butterflies to where Byzantine history is likely to go differently than in OTL. The pagan proto-Russian states are then likely to be centered more in the north, leading to them either staying pagan for longer, or falling under Catholic, rather than Orthodox religious influence.

This means that the Khazars may not convert to Judaism due to a major difference in original conditions that implored them to do so. Instead, they may choose one of the two prevalent forms of Christianity, since not doing so would pretty much invite attacks from either the Byzantines or the Catholics (more so the latter) - with no Islam near it, there is not going to be this much of a need to have a religion that is neither Christianity nor Islam.

 

[JHPier]

10C (cont.):There are recurrent clashes with the Varangians of Novgorod over the Dvina-Dniepr portage.

Ca.970: Both the Eastern Khazars and the (Balkan) Bulgarians are spared Svyatoslav's ruinous attacks. The Byzantines do not conquer eastern Bulgaria.

11C: Western Khazaria's western border bumps into the advancing Poles. Modern-day Galicia and Volhynia become Polish (and RC). Its eastern border keeps expanding, moving up the Dniepr tributaries.

1041(?): Ingvar's expedition sacks Itil, the Eastern Khazar capital, before coming to grief somewhere south of the Caspian. The Western Khazars cease paying tribute.

late 11C: Novgorod converts to RC Christianity.

1200: The Western Khazar realm now extends to the Upper Don and meets the Rus domains of Jaroslav-Suzdal to the southwest of where Moscow now is. Most of its population is of mixed Slav-Turkic descent, speaks Khazar and professes Khazar Judaism.

And now the Mongols are slated to turn up. Bad news

 

[JHPier]

The only issue of sorts I see with it is that Kiev, as an independent entity, has been known to exist since at least Ist century AD, accordingly to the results of archaeological findings on the site (despite the popular founding date in late Vth century) - which is likely to have been before the Khazars' migration west. Even then, by mid-VIIIth century, the population of Kiev would have been predominantly Slavic, with the Norse (the Varyagi of early Russian history) representing a portion of the ruling class, and some of the mercenary component in the army.

All accounts I've read suggest that whatever settlement there was at the site of Kiev it did not qualify as a major center until the Varangians took it in the mid-9C. Also I've never before heard of Scandinavians this far into Russia as early as the 8C.

Thus, in order to allow for the Khazar Kiev, the Khazars would have had to conquer the city rather than found it.

What I proposed was the establishment of a fortress next to a (possibly) pre-existing village, followed by a rebellion, re-conquest, and the founding of a (initially not very big) town.

Now, say, if in the late VIIIth century a particularly lucky or determined Khazar leader decided to take Kiev and hold it, and settle the city with the Khazars to where they become if not the majority, then a sufficient contingent to prevent assimilation into the Slav population, this may result in Kiev becoming the capital (or a major city) of the Khazar Kaganate. With this in mind though, a great possible POD there.

Slavic settlement was pretty scattered in settlements of no more than a 100 or so, I understand. If you put a few thousand concentrated around a single site in the middle of that you have a local majority.

With respect to religion, from what I remember the Khazars converted to Judaism as a way to profess their neutrality between the Orthodox Byzantines, Islamic Caliphate, and pagan Russians - however, if the center of Khazar power is shifted west,

Not right away, there develops an alternative center of power further west. The khagan remains in Itil and ruler over both ends until the Pecheneg invasion

there are going to be much less contact with the Caliphate, and being that Khazars were not known for their shipbuilding skills, likely to be less raids on Constantinople and surrounding areas, thus creating enough butterflies to where Byzantine history is likely to go differently than in OTL.

They can draw on their Slav subjects for shipbuilding skills. But yes, there will be quite an impact on Byzantine history which I have as yet not given enough thought.

The pagan proto-Russian states are then likely to be centered more in the north, leading to them either staying pagan for longer, or falling under Catholic, rather than Orthodox religious influence.

This means that the Khazars may not convert to Judaism due to a major difference in original conditions that implored them to do so. Instead, they may choose one of the two prevalent forms of Christianity, since not doing so would pretty much invite attacks from either the Byzantines or the Catholics (more so the latter) - with no Islam near it, there is not going to be this much of a need to have a religion that is neither Christianity nor Islam.

The Khazars converted some time in the 9C, well before the Pecheneg invasions, and well before this POD is having a major impact. The khagan's capital is still at Itil and the original conditions that implored them to
convert are still there.

 

[Croesus]

As I was aware of it, Kiev etymologically stems from the Turkic Kui (riverbank) + ev (settlement). The Slavic unification under Skand rulers leads to the creation of the Kievan Rus under Oleg, by which time the Khazars were done.

Croesus

 

[Midgard]

As I was aware of it, Kiev etymologically stems from the Turkic Kui (riverbank) + ev (settlement). The Slavic unification under Skand rulers leads to the creation of the Kievan Rus under Oleg, by which time the Khazars were done.

Croesus

The legend told in Kiev to this day about the city name has to do with the name of one of its founders, Kij. In Russian or Ukrainian, Kiev would simply mean Kij's (the legend has brothers Kij, Schekh, and Khoriv, and their sister Lyibid' founding the city in late Vth century, and naming it after the eldest brother). Now, the legend may be just that, a legend, and may have the actual roots like you mention.