Khantate of Rome

[Advernt]

I know it has been done before several times , but I've yet to see a Mongolian Europe timeline. Let's go beyond the arguements whether the Mongols can do it , and just assume that they did do it. They wiped out the French and HRE Armies on the Rhine , swept into France and then across the Pyrenees , and Alps, and march on Rome. Most of the Curia is slaughtered, along with the Pope , and Batu Khan apoints a puppet in place from some minor Abbot that surrendered to him in Germany.

40 Percent of the European Population perishes in 15 years of Carnage , while Batu dies in Denmark while Campagining against the Scandavanians. The Uber Mongolian Empire now stretches from the Atlantic to Pacific , from Gilbraltar to the Yangtze River. Before dying , Batu Khan declares himself the Roman Emperor . And upon his death , Mongols are campaigning in the Magherb and Scandanavia , while Constantinople is siezed by treason.

Several Questions:

What would be the Khantate's initial , and eventual religious alignment?

Would this butterfly the Wars of Religion ?

Has Europe been thrown back several centuries, even if most of the artisans and artists of Europe were spared ?

If sucessor states do form , how would they look like? Would we see reversions back to a Germany from the Rhine to Vistula , a France from the Rhine to Pyrenese, a Spain , an England ( Assuming that Batu's sucessors were better than Khubilai , and conquered the British Isles), or entirely new entities all together ?

If Europe remains united, what would be the likely common language? Would it follow in China's footsteps by stagnanting , or would we see an age of Exploration and an , albiet delayed industrial revolution creating a Turbo Europe Wank that ends up permemantly conquering the World?

If not Europe , who Else?

Discuss away! ( And I hope this thread does not die again....)

 

[Advernt]

Anyone? Hmm...

 

[Advernt]

Bumity bump.

 

[Advernt]

Perhaps this is too wide to elicit a response.....

 

[Scarecrow]

A few points:

1) There is some debate as to the motivations behind Batu's invasion of Hungary and his withdrawal. The consensus is that Europe was saved by the death of Ogodei in 1241, as Batu and Subotai withdrew east to make sure that their enemies didn't seize the throne.

The reality may be a bit more complicated. the Hungarian King Bela had accepted large numbers of Cuman refugees fleeing the Mongol hordes. Bela was sheltering his enemies, which is a fairly good reason for Batu to invade Hungary.

By the time of that the Mongols had withdrawn from Hungary they had devastated the Hungarian plain, so there was little pasture remaining for the 100,000 Mongols. Each Mongol would have had five horses, so a conservative estimate would be 400,000 horses. To quote from Mongols in the West by D.Sinor in the Journal of Asian History v.33 n.1 (1999)

It has been suggested that about 42,000 square kilometers (10,378,425 acres) can or could be used as grazing land. Estimates of grazing or carrying capacity of ranges vary widely but on the assumption that at that time about 25 acres were needed to support one horse for one year, the carrying capacity of the Hungarian range must be set at 415,136 animal units. On the completely unrealistic condition that no other animals were using these pastures, and counting five horses per Mongol horseman, the Hungarian range could provide for the mounts of 83,027 warriors, clearly far below the strength of the Mongol army. The Mongol high command found itself in a position similar to that of a commander of a modern armored division running short of fuel. Further advance to the west, into Transdanubia, would have made matters worse. It was the habit of the Mongols to stop fighting in the spring and let their horses go free to water and graze, and to multiply, so that they would be ready for war in the autumn. This is the reason why in the spring of 1242 the Mongols withdrew from devastated, overgrazed Hungary to the abundant pastures of the steppe, where they could replenish and strengthen their herds, on which their military power rested.

And Batu didn't go back to Mongolia after leaving Hungary: He remained in the Russian steppe, where he could refresh the horses, the backbone of the Mongol army. Besides, his aim had been achieved: the death of King Bela.

Europe rated third as an area of importance by the Mongols after China and the Middle East, areas far richer and closer to the Mongol heartland.

2) It's doubtful that the Mongols would have destroyed the Catholic Church even if they conquered Europe. They had a policy of religious tolerance so Batu may appoint his own Pope. There were Nestorian Christians amongst the Mongol ruling families after all.

3) The Mongols already had an ally of sorts in Europe. Venice.
Whilst around the Sea of Azov the Mongols encountered Venetian traders, and used them as a source of intelligence in Europe, especially Poland and Hungary. As they left the Venetians and Mongols signed a secret trade agreement by which Subotai would help Venice achieve a monopoly by destroying any other nations trading post they happened to encounter in return for intelligence reports on countries they visited. I'm not sure how the Mongols and Venice would have interacted if they had pushed further into Europe, but it's an interesting point.

4) Look at the other nomadic horse peoples invasions of Europe, the Huns in particular, for an example of the spread of horse based nomads into Europe.

Hopefully this is of some help.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Lots of people think that the Mongols would have easily run roughshod over Europe, but despite their successes in Asia, weren't their basic numbers rather small in contrast to their otherwise huge empire? As organized as they were, and as politically divided as Europe was at the time, is it not possible that had they gone beyond Hungary, that they would have reached their breaking point by the time they reached France, Spain, or Italy? Even if they were managed it, I don't know if they would have held Europe for a very long time. Plus, wasn't the wet climate of northern Europe detrimental to the maintenace of the composite bow?

 

[rcduggan]

Plus, wasn't the wet climate of northern Europe detrimental to the maintenace of the composite bow?

That's the argument I always think of too. The bows didn't work and there were castles everywhere (which is another thing that dissuaded the Mongols). The terrain was hostile to nomadic armies because of the mountains and rivers and whatnot. Pannonia was the furthest west steppe, any further towards the Great Sea and the Mongols would be conquering poor, useless territory. IMO they would finish off Song China, Egypt, or even India before Europe.

 

[Typo]

It's a question of will, the Mongols could do it if they really wanted to

The Mongols went through southern China, which was far worse than Europe.

They even built a large navy of hundreds of ships to finish their conquest of China, this is from a nomadic people whom two generations ago havn't even seen a sea.

The Mongol advantage lays in adapting to their enviroment, even if the castles hold out, the countryside could be devastated, and various feudal lords -will- see the benefit of allying with the invaders to protect and expand their own holdings.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The Mongols went through southern China, which was far worse than Europe.

Perhaps, but at least China is far closer to their homeland. If they went to Europe, they would just be overstretching themselves.

They even built a large navy of hundreds of ships to finish their conquest of China, this is from a nomadic people whom two generations ago havn't even seen a sea.

It may have been their plan, but the technical know-how, and seamanship skills came from the Chinese. Even the civil service in Kublai Khan's realm were Chinese. They still needed native talent to take care of certain exigencies of running their Empire.

The Mongol advantage lays in adapting to their enviroment, even if the castles hold out, the countryside could be devastated, and various feudal lords -will- see the benefit of allying with the invaders to protect and expand their own holdings.

Why shouldn't the European monarchies not unite to deal with the Mongol threat? If men like Charles Martel could prevail over the Saracens, and Charlemagne could defeat the Avars, then why shouldn't any of the King's of France or the Holy Roman Emperors not lead a united effort to lay low the Mongols.

 

[Anaxagoras]

What would be the Khantate's initial , and eventual religious alignment?

The Mongols didn't really care about religion. If religious leaders supported them or surrendered to them without resistance, fine. If not, they were killed.

Would this butterfly the Wars of Religion ?

If the Catholic Church were destroyed, which could easily have happened, then you would have Wars of Religion in the West (assuming the Mongols eventually leave) simply because of the religious vacuum left by the Mongols. But they would be nothing like what happened IOTL.

Has Europe been thrown back several centuries, even if most of the artisans and artists of Europe were spared ?

My gut tells me yes. It took China a long time to recover from the Mongol invasion, and it can be argued that the Muslim world never really recovered at all. Europe had entered on the High Middle Ages and the first stirrings of the Renaissance can be seen, but it was still fragile and a successful Mongol conquest would smash it all.

 

[Typo]

Perhaps, but at least China is far closer to their homeland. If they went to Europe, they would just be overstretching themselves.

True, but it's expected for the whatever Mongol regime to collapse in a generation or two anyway, and been almost far from home as western Europe didn't stop the Mongols from "depopulating" eastern Europe

It may have been their plan, but the technical know-how, and seamanship skills came from the Chinese. Even the civil service in Kublai Khan's realm were Chinese. They still needed native talent to take care of certain exigencies of running their Empire.

Of course

Why shouldn't the European monarchies not unite to deal with the Mongol threat? If men like Charles Martel could prevail over the Saracens

If the composition of his army is indicted by the realms he rule, then it was a Frankish victory, hardly a pan-European crusade.

and Charlemagne could defeat the Avars, then why shouldn't any of the King's of France or the Holy Roman Emperors not lead a united effort to lay low the Mongols.

I think it's because from the time of the Caroligians until the Hapsburgs Europe didn't really have someone who could be considered an almost universal monarch.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

If the composition of his army is indicted by the realms he rule, then it was a Frankish victory, hardly a pan-European crusade.

I've read somewhere that contingents sent from other countries, such as Frisia, and probably Burgundy and and Saxony as well, to assist in the Umayyad invasion of Europe. This has gone down in history as a Frankish victory, but other forces in Europe were concerned for their security, so they aided the country that stood between them, and the Umayyads.

Hungary, Poland, and the Holy Roman Empire are among the first countries that would have faced the Mongol onslaught. They would know enough of the Mongol threat to seriously work together.

I think it's because from the time of the Caroligians until the Hapsburgs Europe didn't really have someone who could be considered an almost universal monarch.

I mentioned France and the Holy Roman Empire, as they were the largest realms in Europe, so might well have lead the possible coalition against the imminent onslaught of the Mongols. Even if the Mongols win most of the battles, the more numerous European reserve forces will wear them down, and the Mongol taskforce may have to withdraw, and probably cause as much destruction in the region before they exit.

The Mongols had expanded over much ground very quickly, and were bound to reach their limit at some point. And honestly, if they subjugated central to western Europe: would they consider it worth the hassle to keep it? At least in Asia, they control the source of the silk trade, and most of the route westward. They might as well be content with what they held.