Keeping Vinland settled

[Makemakean]

I think the point of stealing holy relics is to take them to your own homeland and erect a shrine for them there so as to attract pilgrims. Rather than to exchange them for some finite sum of money.

What I was thinking of was that the Rhomaioi Emperor agrees to give the Venetians some Eastern Imperial backing and support in the war on the provision that they are handed back the remains of St. Thomas from the heretical Apostolics of Espanea, which the Venetians agree to. The Doge receives a large sum of gold from the Emperor, and a smaller fleet, and off they go to fight the Espaneans. Then they suddenly find themselves with the bones and... did the Emperor say he wanted this to go back to Edessa? I wonder how much he really, really wants that...

The Venetians takes the relics back home, and there is a huge diplomatic mess as to who deserves ownership of the relics. The Venetians never planned to keep them, but now that they actually have the body of a disciple of Jesus Christ himself they find themselves oddly reluctant. The Emperor, to avoid embarrassment of having the body end up in the hands of another power, now has to agree to pay a ridiculous sum just to get it back that wasn't part of the original deal. This seriously damages the already declining Byzantine-Venetian relations.

After a siege of Edessa by the Venetians, a sack takes place as the besieging soldiers let loose their rage on the city's inhabitants. In the confusion, a company of mercenaries breaks into the church where Saint Thomas is stored, and snatch the saint for their own selfish purposes. Some high-rolling merchant from some place like Tyre or Alexandria may have persuaded the captain of the company covertly to recover the relics in return for a substantial reward. Afterwards, the Venetian colonial would take the relics to his own church. From there, jealous rivals from all over the place would try to use whatever means to snatch the body of Saint Thomas. Until years later one group from the enclaves in India eventually acquires the body.

That seems like a perfect way to have them finally come to India. Can we allow both scenarios to happen, mine first, ending with the bones coming back to Edessa and then yours, retelling how they find their way to India? That way the body of St. Thomas gets to travel around a little on the Med.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

What I was thinking of was that the Rhomaioi Emperor agrees to give the Venetians some Eastern Imperial backing and support in the war on the provision that they are handed back the remains of St. Thomas from the heretical Apostolics of Espanea, which the Venetians agree to. The Doge receives a large sum of gold from the Emperor, and a smaller fleet, and off they go to fight the Espaneans. Then they suddenly find themselves with the bones and... did the Emperor say he wanted this to go back to Edessa? I wonder how much he really, really wants that...

The Venetians takes the relics back home, and there is a huge diplomatic mess as to who deserves ownership of the relics. The Venetians never planned to keep them, but now that they actually have the body of a disciple of Jesus Christ himself they find themselves oddly reluctant. The Emperor, to avoid embarrassment of having the body end up in the hands of another power, now has to agree to pay a ridiculous sum just to get it back that wasn't part of the original deal. This seriously damages the already declining Byzantine-Venetian relations.



That seems like a perfect way to have them finally come to India. Can we allow both scenarios to happen, mine first, ending with the bones coming back to Edessa and then yours, retelling how they find their way to India? That way the body of St. Thomas gets to travel around a little on the Med.

Wait a minute, if the the relics of St Thomas in OTL ended up in Ortona, Italy in the year 1258, then how can they be with the Apostolics in TTL if the schism with Imperial Roman Catholicism happens during the course of the 11th century? Would they not the Rhomaioi have a better chance of acquiring them from the Mesopotamian city of Edessa than the Espaneans anyway?

 

[Makemakean]

Wait a minute, if the the relics of St Thomas in OTL ended up in Ortona, Italy in the year 1258, then how can they be with the Apostolics in TTL if the schism with Imperial Roman Catholicism happens during the course of the 11th century? Would they not the Rhomaioi have a better chance of acquiring them from the Mesopotamian city of Edessa than the Espaneans anyway?

Well, Edessa is conquered by the Rhomaioi in the late 11th century by Alexios Komnenos, as is all of southern Anatolia. Thus, Edessa is a Rhomaioi city and remains that for centuries, with pilgrims coming there to pray to the saint. In the early 14th century, the Espaneans engage in a war with the Venetians and the Rhomaioi over influence in the Med, in the process, they raid Edessa and bring the bones of St. Thomas back to Espanea. Jump forward a few decades and the Venetians go to war with the Espaneans. That's where what I wrote comes into picture...

Sorry if I expressed myself poorly.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

No, I meant that it was the Mesopotamian city of Edessa possessed the relics of Saint Thomas in OTL. Not the city of Edessa which is in Anatolia, but the one in Iraq/Mesopotamia. That's the problem. In OTL, the Edessa on the banks of the Euphrates was at one time the capital of the Frankish County of Edessa which was founded by Count Baldwin of Boulogne during the First Crusade. But since none of this comes to pass in TTL, then the only way the Rhomaioi could even acquire the relics is if Edessa is taken by their Cumanic allies, so the body of Saint Thomas could be taken into their custody. Although such an act would not sit well with Edessa's largely Armenian Orthodox population.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

In regard to Espanea's expansion in the Mediterranean, I don't know how that would happen. The Jimenez dynasty and/or their successive dynasties, if they united the Christian kingdoms of the north under their leadership earlier on, might be too pre-occupied with the Reconquista to establish dominions the same way as the OTL Crown of Aragon did. As for Sicily, I thought that was due to fall into the possession of the Serene Republic of Venice or any one of it's maritime rivals. If that's the case, then its hard to see how Sicily could be gained through dynastic marriage. Any extensive campaigning in lands beyond the Iberian Peninsula could delay the reconquest of Al-Andalus.

Perhaps the Apostolic Catholic Church launch a crusade if they they were openly supported by any of the polities in Italy, then an expeditionary force from Aragon, Catalonia or Provence could be assembled and shipped as far as Sardinia or southern Italy. The grandees leading this force would establish new fiefdoms across the sea while maintaining their loyalty to both the Imperador and the Apostolic Pope. This would provoke the reigning Holy Roman Emperor, since he is the protector of the incumbent bishop of Rome, as well that he holds the title "King of Italy".

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Maybe, instead of claiming an "empire" in the Mediterraean for Espanea, places like Sardinia and Sicily or Naples, when conquered by Apostolic invaders from Aragon, Catalonia and Occitania, could have installed younger sons of the Espanean Imperador as kings? Bringing them a step closer to potentially reclaiming the Papal States on behalf of the Pope in Compostela.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

It seems that the Apostolic Catholics are more hardline than their former brethren in the east, so I think that they may be the one's to deal with the Cathar Heresy in Languedoc. Would the kings of France be accommodating to the Cathars here?

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The Republic of Genoa historically partnered itself with the OTL Spanish Empire after the decline of it's own with the rise of the Ottomans in the eastern Med. The Bank of St George would have the monarchy of Spain as its patron. Additionally, there were many Geonese as well as Florentine, merchants living in the cities of Cordoba, Seville and Lisbon.

Genoa, being closer to Spain and Occitania, would perhaps try to preserve it's independence by allying with the Apostolics, supporting any bids to restore Rome to the Apostolite Pope through financial means and by loaning ships to ferry armies to Italy. In return, the Geonese may effectively become a protectorate of Espanea.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Which group would be the first to claim the OTL site of New York City? Other than it being settled independently by a group of mariners from the Commonwealth, could it be founded by sailors from the Gildic League?

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The proposed Rimskajan Empire, the personal dynastic union between the Byzantine Empire and the Velikiy Kniaz (Grand Prince) of the Kievan realm, would compel certain Rhomaion notables into seceding from the Empire when their realm is beginning to play second-fiddle to Kievan interests. Being on the periphery of the Empire, Epirus, parts of Greece, and some of the Themata Anatolia could come under the control of secessionist Byzantines.

The Despotate of Epirus, the Empire of Trebizond (became independent from Constantinople weeks before its conquest by of the Fourth Crusade in 1204), Empire of Nicaea (until it reconquered Constantinople from the Latin Empire) all come to mind here.