Keeping Vinland settled

Although I agree this is better than trying to move the Beothuk out, I do see one problem. The reason the Inuit spread east is because their culture and traditions was built around living in the Arctic and the animals and plants they can find there. While I wouldn't see any problem with them adapting to a different way of life if they had to, it would be easier for them to spread into areas to the east where the same kinds of animals and plants they are used to also live. Is there any way to keep them from moving East, so that they have to move south?

Unlike the Dorset culture, the Inuit also hunted terrestrial mammals. Particularly the Caribou. There are indications that for much of the 2nd millennium, there were Caribou populations as far south as southern Idaho. They started dying out in the 19th century. So I was thinking that the Thule might go after migrating Caribou. In Yukon, they would find new food sources such a the local moose population.

Also at the time, the Thule were already adapting to a new way of life. Their society was undergoing some changes in technology that made them far more advanced than the Dorset. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_culture#Cultural_and_technological_advancements

"The various peoples of the Alaskan coasts had in that period developed entirely new techniques for hunting and fishing; these technologies also fundamentally changed their lifestyle and culture.

Developments included boats constructed of watertight seal skin stretched over wooden frames such as the kayak (Inuktitut: qajag), used by hunters, and the umiaq, a large boat used by groups of up to 20 women; new styles of spears, and harpoons equipped with weights and floats. These technologies enabled the hunting of whales, which provided a valuable source of food (especially whale skin, rich in vitamin C) and expanded the range of available materials to be processed for construction (bones and skin) and heating (whale oil).

The development of dog sleds and of igloos that could be entered by a tunnel provided easier travel for the people and warmer dwellings during the winter. All of these advances promoted the formation of new social, religious, and artistic values."

"The artifacts left by the Thule generally suggests that they led a more comfortable lifestyle and had leisure time to artistically decorate their personal effects- their art was not the result of social or economic anxieties."

The Inuit however would eventually face a problem. Their culture was based around the warm conditions of the Medieval Warm Period. The Little Ice Age (1550-1850) did quite a number on them. "The effect of the drop in temperature upon the hunting-dependent lifestyle of the Thule was significant. Entire regions of the high Arctic were depopulated, partly by mass migrations but also by the starvation of entire communities."

If they situate themselves further south while their population is booming and their culture is rapidly changing, we might end up with far more adaptable Inuit.
 
Unlike the Dorset culture, the Inuit also hunted terrestrial mammals. Particularly the Caribou. There are indications that for much of the 2nd millennium, there were Caribou populations as far south as southern Idaho. They started dying out in the 19th century. So I was thinking that the Thule might go after migrating Caribou. In Yukon, they would find new food sources such a the local moose population.

Also at the time, the Thule were already adapting to a new way of life. Their society was undergoing some changes in technology that made them far more advanced than the Dorset. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_culture#Cultural_and_technological_advancements

"The various peoples of the Alaskan coasts had in that period developed entirely new techniques for hunting and fishing; these technologies also fundamentally changed their lifestyle and culture.

Developments included boats constructed of watertight seal skin stretched over wooden frames such as the kayak (Inuktitut: qajag), used by hunters, and the umiaq, a large boat used by groups of up to 20 women; new styles of spears, and harpoons equipped with weights and floats. These technologies enabled the hunting of whales, which provided a valuable source of food (especially whale skin, rich in vitamin C) and expanded the range of available materials to be processed for construction (bones and skin) and heating (whale oil).

The development of dog sleds and of igloos that could be entered by a tunnel provided easier travel for the people and warmer dwellings during the winter. All of these advances promoted the formation of new social, religious, and artistic values."

"The artifacts left by the Thule generally suggests that they led a more comfortable lifestyle and had leisure time to artistically decorate their personal effects- their art was not the result of social or economic anxieties."

The Inuit however would eventually face a problem. Their culture was based around the warm conditions of the Medieval Warm Period. The Little Ice Age (1550-1850) did quite a number on them. "The effect of the drop in temperature upon the hunting-dependent lifestyle of the Thule was significant. Entire regions of the high Arctic were depopulated, partly by mass migrations but also by the starvation of entire communities."

If they situate themselves further south while their population is booming and their culture is rapidly changing, we might end up with far more adaptable Inuit.

I think the Inuits could make a trading civilization that trades with East Asia and MesoAmerica if given a proper POD, combining it with a surviving Vinland, Globalization might happen earlier.
 

Stephen

Banned
If you want to depopulate the area instead of a bad climate a more effective method would be to have some small pox spores in a blanket survive the trip from Eurasia, that method worked very well later in OTL.

The discovery of Vinland coincides well with the reign of Olaf the 1st and his persecution of pagans, if he has a change of heart and decides to exile the pagans to Vinland instead of torturing and killing those who refuse to convert Vinland could soon have a settler population of over 10 thousand or more. He doesn't necessarily need to be hugged by a Carebear he could reason that too much terror would lead to insincere conversions. A viable Vinland colony would mean that Iceland and Greenland would not need to rely on Norway for timber etc. This POD also adds a nice pagan flavor to Vinland making them genuine vikings.:D:cool: I have been thinking of making a Vinland timeline based on this POD for a while no but a combination of procrastination, lazyness and employment stealing my time has thwarted me.:eek::( A settlement of a few thousand should be enough to fend off any skraeling attacks and build a good network of log forts. The area of New Brunswick where the butternuts most likely comes from fits well with the descriptions from the sagas. It has a good climate with good timbre supply and will grow all the crops they bring from Europe, there horses, cattle, and sheep will also thrive and multiply. It also has rivers teaming with fish which is also the main problem as that enables a sizable skraeling population which thwarted them OTL, but if the Norse settle in the thousands instead of hundreds they should have more than enough manpower to fight them off and wipe them out. Iron combined with plentiful cowhides, wool for felt and horses for riding will give the Norse a strong advantage in combat. Corn based agriculture had not yet spread much further than the southern Mississippi so they will find the north east US coast much more sparsely populated than the later pilgrims found it. A viable settlement of 10 thousand or more would expand quite quickly traditional agricultural societies with acess to plenty of land and the resulting food either historically or contempory examples like the Amiss typically double every 20 years which after a century from a population of 10 thousand gives you a population of 320 thousand, after 2 centuries 10 million by the time of Columbus North America will be filled up with Norse.
 
A viable Vinland colony would mean that Iceland and Greenland would not need to rely on Norway for timber etc.

I don't know about Iceland, but Greenlanders found an alternative source for timber. The sagas call it Markland (Forestland) and placed it somewhere to the north of Vinland. "Although it was never apparently settled by Norsemen, there were probably a number of later expeditions from Greenland to gather timber." The land was "flat and wooded, with white sandy beaches". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markland

It is thought that Markland was actually one or more heavily-forested areas of Labrador.

The area of New Brunswick where the butternuts most likely comes from fits well with the descriptions from the sagas. It has a good climate with good timbre supply and will grow all the crops they bring from Europe, there horses, cattle, and sheep will also thrive and multiply. It also has rivers teaming with fish

Among the trees of the area is the Tilia americana (American Linden) whose flowers, leaves, wood, and charcoal have medicinal uses. If the Vikings learn how to use them, their medicine might advance.

Corn based agriculture had not yet spread much further than the southern Mississippi so they will find the north east US coast much more sparsely populated than the later pilgrims found it.

I am not sure this is a good idea for them. In New York, there is evidence of an expanding population of Iroquois and Algonquian peoples during the 11th century. Attempting to settle in an already populated area spells war.
 
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Okay, let me see if I can summarize all the input.

Sweden already had a Christian minority since the 830s, resulting from the efforts of Ansgar, the Apostle of the North. Through the 9th century, Västergötland (West Gothland) became increasingly Christian. While the rest of Sweden probably had few Christians, if any at all. Olof Skötkonung, King of Sweden (reigned 995-1022) became the first true Christian King. Baptized by a missionary called Sigfrid. But unlike his counterpart in Norway, Olof was in no position to violently convert his subjects. He helped set a new Bishopric at Skara, but conversions were peaceful, voluntary and few in numbers.

Yes, Olof Skötkonung was the first “true” Christian king of Sweden (I was under the impression that his father Eric Segersäll converted late in his life, but considering that it is well known that he would worship Odin before his battles, I'm willing to grant King Olof the “true” status), and that after that Asatro and Christianity managed to live somewhat peacefully side by side for some time. At the end of the 11th century though, things start getting a bit thougher for the Heathens, when Inge/Ingi the Elder becomes king. As Hervarar Saga tells us:

“Steinkel had a son called Ingi, who became King of Sweden after Haakon. Ingi was King of Sweden for a long time, and was popular and a good Christian. He tried to put an end to heathen sacrifices in Sweden and commanded all the people to accept Christianity; yet the Swedes held to their ancient faith. King Ingi married a woman called Mær who had a brother called Svein. King Ingi liked Svein better than any other man, and Svein became thereby the greatest man in Sweden. The Swedes considered that King Ingi was violating the ancient law of the land when he took exception to many things which Steinkel his father had permitted, and at an assembly held between the Swedes and King Ingi, they offered him two alternatives, either to follow the old order, or else to abdicate. Then King Ingi spoke up and said that he would not abandon the true faith; whereupon the Swedes raised a shout and pelted him with stones, and drove him from the assembly. [...] They drove King Ingi away; and he went into Vestergötland. Svein the Sacrificer was King of Sweden for three years.”

(All this can be found in the wikipedia entry on Inge, by the way). Inge is then exiled for three winters before returning to reclaim the throne:

“King Ingi set off with his retinue and some of his followers, thought it was but as small force. He then rode eastwards by Småland and into Östergötland and then into Sweden. He rode both day and night, and came upon Svein suddenly in the early morning. They caught him in his house and set it on fire and burned the band of men who were within. There was a baron called Thjof who was burnt inside. He had been previously in the retinue of Svein the Sacrificer. Svein himself left the house, but was slain immediately. Thus Ingi once more received the Kingdom of Sweden; and he reestablished Christianity and ruled the Kingdom till the end of his life, when he died in his bed.”

Inge goes on to burn the old Temple at Uppsala, and erects Uppsala Cathedral at its old spot to assert Christianity's supremacy. After that, most of the nobility embraces Christianity, and even though it will still take centuries for the ancient folk beliefs to die out, most of the population rapidly becomes Christian.

The discovery of Vinland coincides well with the reign of Olaf the 1st and his persecution of pagans, if he has a change of heart and decides to exile the pagans to Vinland instead of torturing and killing those who refuse to convert Vinland could soon have a settler population of over 10 thousand or more. He doesn't necessarily need to be hugged by a Carebear he could reason that too much terror would lead to insincere conversions. A viable Vinland colony would mean that Iceland and Greenland would not need to rely on Norway for timber etc. This POD also adds a nice pagan flavor to Vinland making them genuine vikings.

I like this scenario a lot, though as Henriksson mentioned before, there is still the question of whether such a trip could actually be viable for many people in any larger exodus-style emigration of pagans. However, you do point out something very interesting here, namely that a viable Vinland colony would mean that Iceland and Greenland would not need to rely on Norway for timber etc. This is very interesting since as it was Iceland's dependence on Norwegian resources that allowed the Norwegian Crown to eventually reassert their rule on Iceland and the supremacy of Christianity:

"He [King Olaf] refused Icelandic seafarers access to Norwegian ports and took as hostages several Icelanders then dwelling in Norway. This cut off all trade between Iceland and its main trading partner. Some of the hostages taken by King Olaf were the sons of prominent Icelandic chieftains, whom he threatened to kill unless the Icelanders accepted Christianity."

The response was somewhat predictable. The adherents of the two rival religions heatedly argued about the proper way to address the situation. But pragmatism won the day. In 1000, Thorgeir Thorkelsson, law speaker of the Althing , decided in favor of converting Iceland to Christianity. He was himself a pagan priest but made a show of his conversion to the new faith. His initial terms included that the pagans were still allowed to privately practice their religion at home. The church banned this practice a few years following the official conversion.

From history it is known that Leif Ericson discovered Vinland about a year or so after Thorgeir's conversion, so it seems quite hard to keep paganism alive and thriving under such conditions. But how about this, then? As Dan1988 suggested, what if Vinland is explored earlier, say by Eric the Red (a pagan), who is curious about Bjarni Herjólfsson's account of the land sometime in the mid-980s, and this is combined with the Thule moving further south rather than east?

Thus, when Norway starts to exercise their pressure on Iceland, it is already known that there exists a pagan-friendly settlement in Vinland, where there most certainly can be found timber. This gives the Althing the courage to stand up for their old beliefs and Thorgeir consequentially does not convert. In this environment, in which Eric has organized a permanent settlement on Vinland, Leif does not convert to Christianity either. After some limited struggle, the Norwegian Crown is forced to accept the sovereignty of Iceland as far as religious matters are concerned, as they are uninterested in wasting too much resources on a religious war against an island several miles away. With a continued pagan Iceland, it is then reasonable that when the rest of Scandinavia is Christianized during the 11th century, many pagans emigrate to Iceland, from which they continue to Vinland via Greenland.

With a couple of stops on the journey in pagan-friendly places, a minor exodus becomes somewhat more viable. Thus, it is possible to have more Scandinavian pagans emigrate to North America forming a large settlement in Vinland. Add in the discovery of the multitude of fish in the water and a very scarcely populated area and we can allow for the Norse population to expand rapidly.

Eventually trade will resume between Iceland and Norway, thus allowing for trading routes between the Old and the New Worlds.

Would this make it plausible?
 
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I was under the impression that his father Eric Segersäll converted late in his life, but considering that it is well known that he would worship Odin before his battles

Adam of Bremen (11th century) indicates that the conversion of Eric the Victorious took place when he took control over parts of Denmark. More likely to appease the increasingly Christian population of the area. His sincerity on the matter was rather in doubt.

Adam details: "Eric, the king of the Swedes, was converted to Christianity in Denmark and was there baptized. at this time missionaries went from Denmark into Sweden ... I myself have heard from the lips of the most judicious king of the Danes that after Eric had received Christianity, he once more relapsed into paganism." See: http://books.google.com/books?id=4X...s+of+Hamburg-Bremen'#v=snippet&q=eric&f=false


I like this scenario a lot, though as Henriksson mentioned before, there is still the question of whether such a trip could actually be viable for many people in any larger exodus-style emigration of pagans. However, you do point out something very interesting here, namely that a viable Vinland colony would mean that Iceland and Greenland would not need to rely on Norway for timber etc. This is very interesting since as it was Iceland's dependence on Norwegian resources that allowed the Norwegian Crown to eventually reassert their rule on Iceland and the supremacy of Christianity:

From history it is known that Leif Ericson discovered Vinland about a year or so after Thorgeir's conversion, so it seems quite hard to keep paganism alive and thriving under such conditions.

Perhaps not thriving, but certainly alive. In the Erik the Red Saga, Leif's trip to Vinland is joined by Thorhall, a worshiper of Thor. "Thorhall was called the Sportsman; he had for a long time been Eirik's companion in hunting and fishing expeditions during the summers, and many things had been committed to his keeping. Thorhall was a big man, dark, and of gaunt appearance; rather advanced in years, overbearing in temper, of melancholy mood, silent at all times, underhand in his dealings, and withal given to abuse, and always inclined towards the worst. He had kept himself aloof from the true faith when it came to Greenland. ... Then began Thorhall, and said, "Has it not been that the Redbeard has proved a better friend than your Christ? this was my gift for the poetry which I composed about Thor, my patron; seldom has he failed me." "

But how about this, then? As Dan1988 suggested, what if Vinland is explored earlier, say by Eric the Red (a pagan), who is curious about Bjarni Herjólfsson's account of the land sometime in the mid-980s, and this is combined with the Thule moving further south rather than east?

It might be a bit early. The Greenland colony itself was established c. 985 and it could take a few years for the settlers to adapt to their new environment. However, a pagan Vinland might gain a patron in the person of Haakon Sigurdsson, King of Norway (reigned 975-995). He was initially converted to Christianity to please his overlord Harald Bluetooth, King of Denmark (reigned 958-986). But he was no fan in the new religion. "When Haakon was in Denmark, Harald Bluetooth forced him to accept baptism and assigned him clergymen to take to Norway to spread Christianity. When a favourable wind came for Haakon to leave, he commanded the clergymen to return ashore." ... "Haakon was a strong believer in the old Norse gods, and when Harald Bluetooth attempted to force Christianity upon him around 975, Haakon broke his allegiance to Denmark." He reportedly led Norway to revive its allegiance to the Norse Gods, until Olof Skötkonung managed to depose him. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haakon_Sigurdsson
 
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WI the Viking kings decide to exile politicol dissidents, enemies, and pagans to vinland. What I mean is as you know the viking relegion was fading so in order to escape persecution many vikings flee to Vinland. Also the King of the vikings decides to send all his enemies to this far off land. This might lead to much more settlement in Vinland

Somthing like australia in the victoriean age
 
Okay, let me see if I can summarize all the input.

You've yet to respond to my message on fishermen already knowing about the Grand Banks and the explorations by the Portuguese. If there are people living in Vinland, it is very likely that the Portuguese will try to convert the Vinlanders to Christianity - in addition to probably recording their language by interpreting it in (15th century) Portuguese orthography to aid people in preaching in the Vinlandic language (cf. Vietnamese). Granted, this is later on (around the late 1400's to the mid 1600's), but it's still something to keep in mind.
 
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You've yet to respond to my message on fishermen already knowing about the Grand Banks and the explorations by the Portuguese.

Naturally, I must respond to that input, my apologies for missing what is clearly relevant information! Knowledge of the lands which the Portuguese called Bacalao, and where Basque fishermen claimed to have found codfish in the 15th century clearly implies that sooner or later, if the Norse does remain Portuguese settlers will come, if they discover that there are people there. It also illustrates that it is highly unlikely that contact will be completely lost since Newfoundland and the Grand Banks is so far south and so fertile (unlike Greenland).

As far as the whole the Templars (Umberto Eco was right! The Templars have something to do with everything!) going there, could you please extrapolate on that argument. The Order of Christ, with their HQ at Tomar, appears to end up under Henry the Navigator's command during the 15th century, and so it would appear plausible that they wold travel as far as Vinland. What they will do there seems to depend upon how much trade have flourished across the Atlantic since the settlement of the Vinlanders, and if the Vinlanders are numerous enough and centralized enough to be considered a nation. Will they act as missionaries, or will they attempt to colonize the land?


However, a pagan Vinland might gain a patron in the person of Haakon Sigurdsson, King of Norway (reigned 975-995). He was initially converted to Christianity to please his overlord Harald Bluetooth, King of Denmark (reigned 958-986). But he was no fan in the new religion. "When Haakon was in Denmark, Harald Bluetooth forced him to accept baptism and assigned him clergymen to take to Norway to spread Christianity. When a favourable wind came for Haakon to leave, he commanded the clergymen to return ashore." ... "Haakon was a strong believer in the old Norse gods, and when Harald Bluetooth attempted to force Christianity upon him around 975, Haakon broke his allegiance to Denmark." He reportedly led Norway to revive its allegiance to the Norse Gods, until Olof Skötkonung managed to depose him.


Actually I think you are confusing Olaf Tryggvason (the one who succeeded Haakon) with Olof Skötkonung, king of Sweden (who was only born the very year that Haakon was deposed). While it is an interesting idea, it still leaves us with the problem of Vinland not being discovered until five years after Haakon's deposition.


But I've found another interesting POD to keep Iceland pagan for a little longer while the Vinland community is being settled for long enough that when the Norwegian Crown eventually will try to pressure the Icelanders to convert to Christianity, they will have an alternate source of timber, and thus more likely to defend their faith:


“After Olaf had spent three years in Vindland [here meant to refer to Pomerania, and not Vinland], his wife, Geira, fell sick and died. He felt so much sorrow from her death that he could no longer bear to stay in Vindland, and set out to plunder in 984. He raided from Frisland to the Hebrides, until after four years he landed on one of the Scilly Isles. He heard of a seer who lived there. Desiring to test the seer, he sent one of his men to pose as Olaf. But the seer was not fooled. So Olaf went to see the hermit, now convinced he was a real fortune teller. And the seer told him:
Thou wilt become a renowned king, and do celebrated deeds. Many men wilt thou bring to faith and baptism, and both to thy own and others' good; and that thou mayst have no doubt of the truth of this answer, listen to these tokens. When thou comest to thy ships many of thy people will conspire against thee, and then a battle will follow in which many of thy men will fall, and thou wilt be wounded almost to death, and carried upon a shield to thy ship; yet after seven days thou shalt be well of thy wounds, and immediately thou shalt let thyself be baptized.
After the meeting Olaf was attacked by a group of mutineers, and what the seer had foretold happened. So Olaf let himself be baptised by St. Ælfheah of Canterbury in 994.[7] After his conversion Olaf stopped looting in England.” - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_I_of_Norway)
How about if this seemingly mythical meeting never takes place, and Olaf consequentially doesn't convert to Christianity? He still manages to assume the throne of Norway (it would only be likely, Olaf was after all a descendant of Harald Fairhair and would thus be inclined both to win popular support as well as having the motivation to exploit King Haakon's quarrel with the Trønders), thus postponing the Christianization of Norway for (at least) a couple of decades. This will remove the pressure on the Icelanders to adopt Christianity as their religion, thus allowing it to remain pagan for enough time for the Vinland explorers to form a firm settlement (we can thus allow Leif Ericson to be the one establishing the Vinland settlement again, as in OTL).


Olaf's eventual downfall as king of Norway was more or less the consequence of his devout Christian faith:


“It has been suggested that Olaf's ambition was to rule a united Christian Scandinavia, and it is known that he made overtures of marriage to Sigrid the Haughty, queen of Sweden, but negotiations fell through due to her steadfast pagan faith. Instead he made an enemy of her, and did not hesitate to involve himself in a quarrel with King Sweyn I of Denmark by marrying his sister Thyre, who had fled from her heathen husband Burislav (Bolesław I Chrobry) in defiance of her brother's authority.” - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_I_of_Norway)


“Her [Sigrid's] hand was next sought by Olaf Trygvasson, the king of Norway, but he would have required that she convert to Christianity. She told him to his face, "I will not part from the faith which my forefathers have kept before me." In a rage, Olaf struck her with a glove, and Sigrid calmly told him, "This may some day be thy death." Sigrid then proceeded to create a coalition of his enemies to bring about his downfall. She allied Sweden with Denmark, marrying the widower Sweyn Forkbeard who had already been feuding with Olaf. Swein had sent his sister Tyri to marry the Wendish king Burislav, who had been father of Swein's first wife, Gunhild. Tyri fled and married Olaf, goading him into conflict with her brother, while Sigrid inflamed Swein against her former suitor. This shared animosity would lead to the Battle of Swold, in which Olaf fell.” - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigrid_the_Haughty)

If Olaf doesn't convert to Christianity, then his negotiations with the Swedish Crown over his proposed marriage to (the pagan) Sigrid the Haughty will never break down, leading to a war with Sweden and Denmark. This will have important outcomes: since relations doesn't break down, Sweden will not ally with Denmark, go to war with Norway, leading to a series of events culminating with Sweyn Forkbeard becoming King of Norway, but on the contrary, Sweden and Norway have their bands strengthened and Olaf will remain king with Sigrid as his queen. But, let's not forget the possibly most important consequence, if Sigrid the Haughty and Sweyn Forkbeard never marries, Canute the Great is never born...
 
As far as the whole the Templars (Umberto Eco was right! The Templars have something to do with everything!) going there, could you please extrapolate on that argument. The Order of Christ, with their HQ at Tomar, appears to end up under Henry the Navigator's command during the 15th century, and so it would appear plausible that they wold travel as far as Vinland. What they will do there seems to depend upon how much trade have flourished across the Atlantic since the settlement of the Vinlanders, and if the Vinlanders are numerous enough and centralized enough to be considered a nation. Will they act as missionaries, or will they attempt to colonize the land?

Well, to a degree I was thinking of early Brazilian history. Initially, Portugal allowed the Order of Christ to run the local Church (kind of fitting as the Templars helped with the Portuguese Reconquista); eventually these were replaced by the Jesuits - probably feeling that a wider and more coordinated missionary effort was needed (in Vietnam, it was the Jesuits who helped in Romanizing the Vietnamese language). It's possible that the Order of Christ - and later on, the Jesuits - could do a little bit of both, probably even kickstarting proto-capitalism in Vinland. Probably even building a cathedral that is a partial replica of their chapel in Tomar.

Also, there's the possibility of *João Álvares Fagundes' colony becoming successful - even if it's a different person in TTL who shares Fagundes' goals.
 
Perhaps I don't actually need to remove those Inuits, since they first seem to arrive in Northeastern Canada in the 13th century, long after the Norse have already left. It must thus have been the Dorset culture that the Norse encountered and that eventually drove them out. From the Saga of Erik the Red:

"Now when spring began, they beheld one morning early, that a fleet of hide-canoes was rowing from the south off the headland; so many were they as if the sea were strewn with pieces of charcoal, and there was also the brandishing of staves as before from each boat. Then they held shields up, and a market was formed between them; and this people in their purchases preferred red cloth; in exchange they had furs to give, and skins quite grey. They wished also to buy swords and lances, but Karlsefni and Snorri forbad it. They offered for the cloth dark hides, and took in exchange a span long of cloth, and bound it round their heads; and so matters went on for a while. But when the stock of cloth began to grow small, then they split it asunder, so that it was not more than a finger’s breadth. The Skrælingar gave for it still quite as much, or more than before.

Now it came to pass that a bull, which belonged to Karlsefni’s people, rushed out of the wood and bellowed loudly at the same time. The Skrælingar, frightened thereat, rushed away to their canoes, and rowed south along the coast. There was then nothing seen of them for three weeks together. When that time was gone by, there was seen approaching from the south a great crowd of Skrælingar boats, coming down upon them like a stream, the staves this time being all brandished in the direction opposite to the sun’s motion, and the Skrælingar were all howling loudly. Then took they and bare red shields to meet them. They encountered one another and fought, and there was a great shower of missiles. The Skrælingar had also war-slings, or catapults."


If I could just make sure that that annoying bull never rushes out of the wood, thus ruining the relatively peaceful, if cautious, meeting between the Norse, the Viking settlement may eventually be able to form stable relations with the Dorset culture, or at least remain settled there while other migrants joins them, allowing the Viking colony to grow so that they are not outnumbered by the Dorset people if they ever decide to attack. Eventually, the Norse are powerful enough (possessing armor and far better weaponry) to drive out the Dorset culture, much like the Inuits would later do. When the Inuits finally do arrive in Vinland, the Norse will be numerous enough to stand against them when they seek to claim the territory.

If I change that, along with keeping King Olaf from converting to Christianity, as Leif Ericson will never convert either. This means that the settlement in Vinland will remain firmly pagan as well as growing.

Unless someone notices a serious problem with the plausibility of this scenario, I think this is the beginning that I will go with.
 
I think what would be interesting is non-Norse groups follow them to the New World. Empty America, in the early segments, have Madoc's Welsh, Hereward the Wake's Anglo-Saxons fleeing William the Conqueror, and some Baltic pagans who escaped the fall of the temple of Arkona in 1168 who all follow the Norse to the New World. They settle in different parts, except the Balts are near the Norse I guess.
 
Actually I think you are confusing Olaf Tryggvason (the one who succeeded Haakon) with Olof Skötkonung, king of Sweden (who was only born the very year that Haakon was deposed). While it is an interesting idea, it still leaves us with the problem of Vinland not being discovered until five years after Haakon's deposition.

True, thats what happens when you are thinking of people with similar names and try to distinguish them by memory. However, I mentioned Haakon for a scenario where Vinland colonization starts c. 986.

How about if this seemingly mythical meeting never takes place, and Olaf consequentially doesn't convert to Christianity? He still manages to assume the throne of Norway (it would only be likely, Olaf was after all a descendant of Harald Fairhair and would thus be inclined both to win popular support as well as having the motivation to exploit King Haakon's quarrel with the Trønders[/SIZE]), thus postponing the Christianization of Norway for (at least) a couple of decades.


It would also postpone or prevent the Christianization of the Faroes, Orkney, and Shetland. A development which might result in some interesting situations in the North Sea.

Olaf will remain king with Sigrid as his queen. But, let's not forget the possibly most important consequence, if Sigrid the Haughty and Sweyn Forkbeard never marries, Canute the Great is never born...

This would have further effects.

*Olaf I Tryggvason will probably live longer, reign longer, and leave a line of royal descendants. In the original timeline his only known son was Tryggvi the Pretender (d. 1033). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryggvi_the_Pretender

*Harald II, King of Denmark (reigned 1014-1018) was brother or half-brother of Canute. There is a chance he will also be erased from this timeline. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_II_of_Denmark

*Estrid Svendsdatter was a sister of Canute. She married Ulf Jarl. They were parents to Sweyn II, King of Denmark (reigned 1047-1074). Descendants of Sweyn II held the Danish throne for centuries (1074-1332, 1340-1412). Most of the later monarchs of Denmark have claimed distant descent from one or another of these Kings. In this timeline, none of them exists. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrid_Svendsdatter and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulf_Jarl and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweyn_II_of_Denmark

* Gyda Svendsdatter was a sister or half-sister of Canute. She married Eiríkr Hákonarson, co-regent of Norway (reigned 1000-1012). Their son was Haakon Eiriksson, co-regent of Norway (reigned 1012-1015, 1028-1029). Here Eirikr is single and Haakon is probably erased from the timeline. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eirik_Håkonson and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Håkon_Eiriksson

*Sweyn Forkbeard, King of Denmark (reigned 986-1014) will need a new consort to get descendants. Descendants which would be unique to this timeline. Also the author will have to decide what is Sweyn's position on both Christianism and Paganism. The Medieval sources are contradictory, depicting him both as a pious Christian and a fervant pagan. Adam of Bremen "accused Forkbeard of being a rebellious pagan who persecuted Christians, betrayed his father and expelled German bishops from Scania and Zealand." ... "As many scholars point out, he [Sweyn] built churches in Denmark throughout this period, such as Lund and Roskilde".

"Sweyn was tolerant of paganism while favoring Christianity, at least politically. By allowing English ecclesiastical influence in his kingdom, he was spurning the Hamburg-Bremen archbishop. Since German bishops were an integral part of the secular state, Sweyn's preference for the English church may have been a political move. He sought to preempt any threat against his independence posed by the German kings. Contrary to Adam's writings, Sweyn did not appear to have reestablished paganism. There is no evidence of reversion to pagan burial practices during Sweyn's reign.[19] Whether King Sweyn was a heathen or not, he enlisted priests and bishops from England rather than from Hamburg. This may have been another reason for Adam of Bremen's apparent hostility in his accounts. Numerous converted priests of a Danish origin from the Danelaw lived in England, while Sweyn had few connections to Germany or its priests." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweyn_Forkbeard
 
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Eventually, the Norse are powerful enough (possessing armor and far better weaponry) to drive out the Dorset culture
I read somewhere thatLeifs People where not warriors, but Merchants and Farmer, So when the Scalings attacked, Leif withdrew with his people.
Have a couple extra ships, with more Fighters in the Group ....................
 
to be fair - while a neat idea - the location of Vinland is probably not in NewFoundLand but somewhere farther south (like cape Cod area)... for the settlement found on north newfoundland does not fit the description of vinland from the sagas, (both in the location and in the arrangement of the structures found).

nevertheless, i am interested to see where this goes XD
 
to be fair - while a neat idea - the location of Vinland is probably not in NewFoundLand but somewhere farther south (like cape Cod area)... for the settlement found on north newfoundland does not fit the description of vinland from the sagas, (both in the location and in the arrangement of the structures found).

nevertheless, i am interested to see where this goes XD

From what I've read, the closest possibility for Vinland is the Maritimes - Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and PEI - and possibility eastern Maine (the furthest south for any discovery of Norse artifacts is a penny found in Maine). The Island of Newfoundland itself would be a transition area between Vinland and Markland.
 
From what I've read, the closest possibility for Vinland is the Maritimes - Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and PEI - and possibility eastern Maine (the furthest south for any discovery of Norse artifacts is a penny found in Maine). The Island of Newfoundland itself would be a transition area between Vinland and Markland.

fair enough - though there have been a few ruinic inscriptions found farther afield then maine that have recently proven to be real (or as real as they can prove using the tech. they have). but i degress...

eitherway, for a TL i would probably set it in Nova Scotia or PEI (PEI could be interesting...a small native population base to "Deal' with - and if they "win" there, they have a relatively secure base to expand from). just my opinion. :) cheers and good luck.
 
I think what would be interesting is non-Norse groups follow them to the New World. Empty America, in the early segments, have Madoc's Welsh, Hereward the Wake's Anglo-Saxons fleeing William the Conqueror, and some Baltic pagans who escaped the fall of the temple of Arkona in 1168 who all follow the Norse to the New World. They settle in different parts, except the Balts are near the Norse I guess.


Non-Norse groups must also be taken into account, you are absolutely correct about that. The Norse and especially the Irish and Scots were very well connected and if a settlement in Vinland not only survive, but begins to expand, it is only a question of time before word of it reaches the British isles through the Norse. Then it would be completely possible for Scots and Irish settlers too to make their way to Vinland via Iceland, just as the Norse. I am not sure how they'd settle though, although I assume that they'd at least initially form their settlements relatively close to the Norse in order to enjoy trade with them and support in the case of a Skräling attack. If the Scots know about Vinland, then soon enough the English will gain knowledge too. How many English that will actually seek to come there I would assume to be a small number, though.

Having some Baltic pagans come as well would also be natural. And it would, much to my like, remove the mono-cultural setting that a purely Norse settlement would establish.

Additionally, we mustn't assume that the settlement would remain entirely pagan. With a majority of pagans initially with little political incentive to convert en masse, paganism would most likely survive in Vinland far longer than it did in Europe. However, the Christian kings of Scandinavia will probably eventually start sending missionaries there, even if their success is only partial.

It would also postpone or prevent the Christianization of the Faroes, Orkney, and Shetland. A development which might result in some interesting situations in the North Sea.

This would have further effects.

*Olaf I Tryggvason will probably live longer, reign longer, and leave a line of royal descendants. In the original timeline his only known son was Tryggvi the Pretender (d. 1033). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryggvi_the_Pretender

*Harald II, King of Denmark (reigned 1014-1018) was brother or half-brother of Canute. There is a chance he will also be erased from this timeline. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_II_of_Denmark

*Estrid Svendsdatter was a sister of Canute. She married Ulf Jarl. They were parents to Sweyn II, King of Denmark (reigned 1047-1074). Descendants of Sweyn II held the Danish throne for centuries (1074-1332, 1340-1412). Most of the later monarchs of Denmark have claimed distant descent from one or another of these Kings. In this timeline, none of them exists. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrid_Svendsdatter and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulf_Jarl and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweyn_II_of_Denmark

* Gyda Svendsdatter was a sister or half-sister of Canute. She married Eiríkr Hákonarson, co-regent of Norway (reigned 1000-1012). Their son was Haakon Eiriksson, co-regent of Norway (reigned 1012-1015, 1028-1029). Here Eirikr is single and Haakon is probably erased from the timeline. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eirik_Håkonson and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Håkon_Eiriksson

*Sweyn Forkbeard, King of Denmark (reigned 986-1014) will need a new consort to get descendants. Descendants which would be unique to this timeline. Also the author will have to decide what is Sweyn's position on both Christianism and Paganism. The Medieval sources are contradictory, depicting him both as a pious Christian and a fervant pagan. Adam of Bremen "accused Forkbeard of being a rebellious pagan who persecuted Christians, betrayed his father and expelled German bishops from Scania and Zealand." ... "As many scholars point out, he [Sweyn] built churches in Denmark throughout this period, such as Lund and Roskilde".


All very good, but I've discovered that there may exist one little problem with Sigrid the Haughty, as it appears that the historical records are very unreliable as far as her origins are concerned. Some records say she was the daughter of a mighty Swedish chieftain, others say she was a Polish princess. To quote Wikipedia:


“These data have been used for alternative reconstructions. One would interpret the saga account of Sigrid as a confused rendering of a historical princess, Świętosława, daughter of first duke of the Polans Mieszko I, who married in succession Erik and Swein, being mother of Olaf (by Erik), Harald and Cnut (both by Swein). Sigrid would be either a contemporary name adopted by the Princess to conform to her new linguistic context, or else simply a name invented by saga writers who did not know or could not comprehend her Slavic name.”

I will go with this reconstruction. From also considering the motivations for the war with Norway, I assume that we can arrive at the following: Świętosława, henceforth to be called Sigrid, is originally a Polish princess and a staunch heathen (quite interesting, since her father converted to Christianity for political reasons). She first marries Eric the Victorious and gives birth to Olof Skötkonung, and later, in OTL, marries Sweyn Forkbeard, giving birth to Harald II and Canute the Great.

Thus Canute the Great is removed from ever existing ITTL, and instead Sigrid marries King Olaf of Norway. Seeing that she produced Sweyn royal heirs, it is reasonable that she would provide Olaf with one as well. I will call the oldest male, and thus heir to the throne, Harald III (as I assume king Olaf would have named the kid after Norway's legendary first king, Harald Fairhair). From considering his genetic heritage he may, like Canute, grow up to be a skilled and strategical warrior.

Without having the support from Norway, it is likely that Sweyn's conquest of England may be turned into defeat when he invades the British isles in 1013. Assume he dies in battle. Did he find a new consort to produce an heir or not?
 
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I just want to mention that three years ago in this forum, there was a ATL called "Eriks Saga the Red" which featured a Norse pagan republic in Vinland founded by a formerly Christian Leif Eriksson. Alternately, his father bypassed OTL Greenland and founded an earlier colony on Anticosti Island which he would still call Greenland. The second colony of Vinland was founded on the northern shores of New Brunswick by fleeing pagan Icelanders. The author carried the story only up until the early 1500's.
 
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