Kazan Russia

[Philip]

The Rus remained Orthodox after 1386 and while they were in majority of the population they weren't dominant part of that population.

I am not sure what you mean by the 'dominant part of that population'. The dukes in (modern) Belarus and Ukraine remained Orthodox. It was only after the Union of Lublin (1567) that political pressure started to force conversion of the Lithuanian nobles. Of course, if the Lithuanians had been faring better against the Muscovites in the Livonian War, the Union probably would not have occurred.

 

[abas]

I am not sure what you mean by the 'dominant part of that population'. The dukes in (modern) Belarus and Ukraine remained Orthodox.

They remained Orthodox but also they remained in periphery of the political life.

It was only after the Union of Lublin (1567) that political pressure started to force conversion of the Lithuanian nobles. Of course, if the Lithuanians had been faring better against the Muscovites in the Livonian War, the Union probably would not have occurred.

Situation was more complex. The Reformation was very popular not only among Catholic but also Orthodox nobles. When the Counter Reformation got hold the former Ortodoxes converted to Catholicism. The main point with the Union was the ruler (Zygmunt August) not war.

 

[Stalker]

Lithuanians weren't Christians until 1386 and never were Orthodox.

The first part of the statement is true the other part is absolutely false. They WERE orthodox and as Philip quite correctly pointed out, they became catholics only in late 17th, early 18th century due to Polish domination/pressure. Lithuanians were not a unified tribe either - there were Lithuanians of Slavic origin - not Russians, and there were Zhemaits (sp.?) fnd Aukshtites (sp.?)
What concerns Tartar Russ, there's an interesting humorous Russian AH-series by Holm van Zaichik (pen name of Vyacheslav Rybakov) who tells an interesting story of Horduss (Horde+Russ) a AH-state that became a result of historical development of a union between Sartaq Khan who survives here longer and Alexander Nevsky with China joining it later on. It's a series of AH-detectives, very well written and with quite a sophisticated sense of humor.
As you may see, however, the POD here starts a little bite earlier than one suggested for the thread.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Is it necessary for every thread to devolve into a Wikipedia battle? Can we discuss the scenario at hand?

 

[Stalker]

Yes, we can. My answer to this particular scenario is that the declining state like Kazan Khanate cannot dominate over a new aggressive, rapidly developing empire with ambitious pretension to become the Third Rome.

 

[Advernt]

Yes, we can. My answer to this particular scenario is that the declining state like Kazan Khanate cannot dominate over a new aggressive, rapidly developing empire with ambitious pretension to become the Third Rome.

Was there any way to reverse the decline ?Also , my second querry asked whether some other power like the Lituhanians could hypotechtically Russia , instead of Muscovy.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Well, you can call the Mongols declining but there is always the possibility of a Timur/Tamberlane figure potentially reversing that.

I have no knowledge whatsoever of Kazan history, but I would imagine there were occasional potential leaders who, if circumstances had been right, could have resurrected a former greatness

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[abas]

The first part of the statement is true the other part is absolutely false. They WERE orthodox and as Philip quite correctly pointed out, they became catholics only in late 17th, early 18th century due to Polish domination/pressure. Lithuanians were not a unified tribe either - there were Lithuanians of Slavic origin - not Russians, and there were Zhemaits (sp.?) fnd Aukshtites (sp.?)
What concerns Tartar Russ, there's an interesting humorous Russian AH-series by Holm van Zaichik (pen name of Vyacheslav Rybakov) who tells an interesting story of Horduss (Horde+Russ) a AH-state that became a result of historical development of a union between Sartaq Khan who survives here longer and Alexander Nevsky with China joining it later on. It's a series of AH-detectives, very well written and with quite a sophisticated sense of humor.
As you may see, however, the POD here starts a little bite earlier than one suggested for the thread.

http://viduramziu.istorija.net/etno/gudavicius-en.htm

 

[Stalker]

Was there any way to reverse the decline ?Also , my second querry asked whether some other power like the Lituhanians could hypotechtically Russia , instead of Muscovy.

Yes, the Lithuania might have become the new centre of Russ instead of Muscovy. That's not only a probable scenario but quite an equal chance with Moscow to become the leader of further historical development of Russ if we go back to 14th century.

 

[Stalker]

http://viduramziu.istorija.net/etno/gudavicius-en.htm

Oh, dear! I knew something like that would arise!
Just another attempt to revise history in order to try to look more Western. With whole fragments of true facts interpreted in favour of official point of view prevailing in Lithuania. Mindaugas baptising according to Catholic rites rather than to Orthodox, in my opinion, is just another myth.
Not denying Baltic origin of Aukštaitians and Žemaitians, who later became the core of what we call Lithuanian nation now along with Lithuanians of Slavic origin, I also should say here that the official language of Lithuania was South-Western Old Russian (which became the parent language of Belorussian and Ukrainian).

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Yes, we can. My answer to this particular scenario is that the declining state like Kazan Khanate cannot dominate over a new aggressive, rapidly developing empire with ambitious pretension to become the Third Rome.

I don't necessarily agree with that. Declining states often revive. Look at the Byzantines for example. Kazan would have needed a lot of things to go right for the tides to turn, but it's not unheard of. Byzantium looked like a spent force in 700, but it managed a spectacular revival.

The Ottomans barely existed in 1800, but were able to make a pretty serious comeback in the 19th c despite much larger problems than Kazan's... France has had more ups and downs than I can recall at the moment.

So in conclusion, you're probaby right.

 

[Max Sinister]

"The Ottomans barely existed in 1800" In how far? Their empire was still pretty strong.

 

[abas]

Not denying Baltic origin of Aukštaitians and Žemaitians, who later became the core of what we call Lithuanian nation now along with Lithuanians of Slavic origin, I also should say here that the official language of Lithuania was South-Western Old Russian (which became the parent language of Belorussian and Ukrainian).

That language was Church Slavonic, the same was used in Moscow, Moldova. Only later it become closer to local Slavic dialects and then to Polish.
BTW independent Khanat of Kazan was established ten years before proposed POD, so to call it declining, hmm...

 

[Stalker]

That language was Church Slavonic, the same was used in Moscow, Moldova. Only later it become closer to local Slavic dialects and then to Polish.
BTW independent Khanat of Kazan was established ten years before proposed POD, so to call it declining, hmm...

Nah, it was not. It was live Old Western Russian. Lithuanian early chronicles, decrees, books a written in Old Western Russian. It's a little bit different from Church Slavonic...
What concerns Kazan independence, it only witnesses the crisis of the whole system of economic and political relations within the Golden Horde dissipating into smaller Khanates from Crimea to Siberia. In the long run they simply could not compete with Muscovy. So, yes, in that sense Kazan was a shard of the declining culture.

 

[Superdude]

Was there any way to reverse the decline ?Also , my second querry asked whether some other power like the Lituhanians could hypotechtically Russia , instead of Muscovy.

There was consideration for a Muscovy-Lithuanian Union...

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

"The Ottomans barely existed in 1800" In how far? Their empire was still pretty strong.

Fairly large, but definitely not fairly strong. Endless warfare with the Russians and Hapsburgs had caused the provinces to spin off into autonomy, with only nominal allegiance to the imperial government. The Sultan only controlled Istanbul and it's environs. Sultan Mahmud II started the process of recentralization, and it took two generations for the empire to be a going concern again. Note that subdiuing the governor of Albania consumed all the empire's military resources, leaving it unable to deal with the Greek rebellion.

But in 1897, a much stronger Greece was crushed with little effort by the Ottomans - or in 1876 the Ottomans simultaneously put down a huge rebellion in Bosnia & Herzogovina, a smaller one in Bulgaria, crushed Serbia in war, defeated a Montenegrin invasion, and then nearly fought off a Russian/Rumanian/Serbian/Montenegrin invasion while a revolution was occurring in Istanbul, with three Sultans in as many months. In 1800 similar events would have caused the empire to disintigrate.

 

[abas]

Nah, it was not. It was live Old Western Russian. Lithuanian early chronicles, decrees, books a written in Old Western Russian. It's a little bit different from Church Slavonic...

You are right about chronicles and books, but they were written in 16th century while I was referring to the beginning of usage in 15th. The similar evolution that language had in Moscow also.

What concerns Kazan independence, it only witnesses the crisis of the whole system of economic and political relations within the Golden Horde dissipating into smaller Khanates from Crimea to Siberia. In the long run they simply could not compete with Muscovy. So, yes, in that sense Kazan was a shard of the declining culture.

Those smaller khanates were stabile enough and only from our perspective we can tell that they were shards but not seeds of new the culture. Around 1450 Kazan had great chances overrun Moscow, which at that time fell in the crisis also.

 

[Advernt]

Let's theorize that Kazan was somehow able to develop a new, centralized system of statehood , and actually suceeded in building a nation . At the same time , a brilliant Amir of the likes of Timur gains power in Kazan ( who in reality died in childhood , or his father , or his ancestor etc...) and proceeds to unleash a campaign of terror on the north , conquering much of Russia by his death and leaving a stable state beginning to develop a national identity that is partially Tatar , partially Rus .

Oh , and the Kazans don't necessarily have to remain Muslims . Nor the Lituhanians Catholics .

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Oh , and the Kazans don't necessarily have to remain Muslims . Nor the Lituhanians Catholics .

Would that gonna be harder achieve ? Well I do not really know much about History of Eurasia, but at least I know enough to think Kazan is just to Muslim for us to expect them to convert into Orthodox Christianity (and to not to convert the Russians into Islam. You got my point here, right?).