Joseph II marries Madame Elisabeth in 1781

[Vanity 6]

And they have two boys. Franz (1783) and Karl (1785). Joseph dies in schedule in 1790

Does she have any influence over policy? Probably not. But if she did, would she slow down Joseph’s reforms?

I’m not sure a minor can be elected HRE. But if so, how would the regency be handled? A council of the princes perhaps?

A minor could be King of Hungary etc. I doubt Elisabeth would be given any power. Perhaps a council of Archdukes? There are some of them in Tuscany that could come up to Vienna.

Maybe Leopold is the Regent and things go the same as in OTL vis a vis Revolutionary France.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

And they have two boys. Franz (1783) and Karl (1785). Joseph dies in schedule in 1790

Does she have any influence over policy? Probably not. But if she did, would she slow down Joseph’s reforms?

I’m not sure a minor can be elected HRE. But if so, how would the regency be handled? A council of the princes perhaps?

A minor could be King of Hungary etc. I doubt Elisabeth would be given any power. Perhaps a council of Archdukes? There are some of them in Tuscany that could come up to Vienna.

Maybe Leopold is the Regent and things go the same as in OTL vis a vis Revolutionary France.

A minor causes a massive headache (and that's disregarding the fact that Elisabeth wanted to be a nun and the only reason she didn't was because Marie Antoinette persuaded Louis XVI to keep his sister at court), since it would cause a split of the imperial title (which passes to Pietro Leopoldo as OTL) rather than any sort of regency. Although, interestingly, the two imperial "regents" are both French allies - the elector of Saxony and the Elector Palatine (who also happens to be the elector of Bavaria), but still, it'd be more likely that Leopoldo would become emperor and Franz would become king of Hungary and Bohemia.

Élisabeth would be regent for her son in Hungary/Bohemia, but in the empire (if they decided on her son rather than his Italian uncle) Saxony and Bavaria-Palatinate will control the leading strings until her son turns 17/18yo (ICR what the imperial age of majority was).

 

[Vanity 6]

Good thoughts and yes, quite the headache. If Leopold dies on schedule in 1792 the empire is back in the soup. Still 8 years to go until Joseph’s son’s age of majority. And during a critical time as well.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Good thoughts and yes, quite the headache. If Leopold dies on schedule in 1792 the empire is back in the soup. Still 8 years to go until Joseph’s son’s age of majority. And during a critical time as well.

It might see a separation of the imperial and royal titles for the first time since the 16th century. Since Leopoldo's son is likely to still end up elected as imperial successor should his dad die. While the Josephine line rules Hungary and Bohemia. Based on the OTL friction between the empire and Hungary in the 19th century this MIGHT not be such a bad thing.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

But in such a scenario Leopold II controls no German land whatsoever. The entire Habsburg Monarchy passes to "Franz II" of Bohemia & Hungary, leaving Leopold with just Tuscany. More likely the throne either remains vacant until Franz II's majority or he's elected under the regency of the Electors of Saxony and Bavaria-Palatinate.

 

[Vanity 6]

How about Leopold II and his son Franz II hold the title of HRE and also serve as regent for the Young Franz in the hereditary kingdoms and lands during his minority?

With this you have (probably) the Declaration of Pillnitz and the Napoleonic Wars. Young Franz reaches majority and rules as King or Hungary etc. in 1801 but remains under the sway of Franz II and his mother. He never becomes HRE Franz III because the empire is abolished on schedule during the reign of Franz II.

Instead this Young Franz is proclaimed Emperor of Austria. Maybe we start to see some different decision making at this point.

Perhaps there is no 1809 war and instead an early reconciliation with France—Austria hoping to get a decent deal. Could they wrangle some concessions in return for being a bulwark against Russia? Anything?

 

[Archduke]

You will definitely have a split as suggested. The Empire is not going to have a prolonged interregnum and they will not also elect a minor. When Joseph dies, Leopold would most definitely be elected. When Leopold dies, I guess it would be his son who is elected. I don’t really see Charles Theodore Of Palatine and Bavaria promoting himself as an alternative candidate, he lacked that sort of ambition. None of the Protestant electors can run because the Catholic-majority will vote against them. Frederick Augustus Of Saxony was too cautious. No one who isn’t an elector has a chance unless they are Hapsburg. So by default, Leopold’s son should be elected unanimously. I guess I could see Charles Theodore threatening to run or to promote a different candidate but only for the purpose of convincing the Austrians to accept a trade of some of his Bavarian lands for Austrian Netherlands parts with the condition that he could pass those on to one of his favorite illegitimate children. That’s about the only drama I can imagine.

 

[Historymaster]

If Joseph has heirs of his own, he is going to stop meddling with Leopoldo's family and state businness, and Leopoldo will be able to raise Francesco the way he desires, and since Tuscany is no more destined to be reuinited with Austria, maybe he will also be able to proclaim the constitution in 1885-1886.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

But in such a scenario Leopold II controls no German land whatsoever. The entire Habsburg Monarchy passes to "Franz II" of Bohemia & Hungary, leaving Leopold with just Tuscany. More likely the throne either remains vacant until Franz II's majority or he's elected under the regency of the Electors of Saxony and Bavaria-Palatinate.

AFAIK Tuscany was deemed part of the empire. Otherwise François Étienne was elected when he held only the duchy of Teschen and the county of Valkenburg.

 

[isabella]

AFAIK Tuscany was deemed part of the empire. Otherwise François Étienne was elected when he held only the duchy of Teschen and the county of Valkenburg.

Pretty unlikely who Tuscany was in the Empire and what lands François Etienne personally held in the Empire was irrelevant for his election as he was elected as Austrian candidate. I think who in this ATL an election of Leopold and his son is pretty unlikely and is more likely who the Holy Roman Emperor between Joseph and Franz II will be one of his other brothers (either Ferdinand called back from Milan or better Maximilian who was in the clergy and so will not have any heir)

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Pretty unlikely who Tuscany was in the Empire and what lands François Etienne personally held in the Empire was irrelevant for his election as he was elected as Austrian candidate. I think who in this ATL an election of Leopold and his son is pretty unlikely and is more likely who the Holy Roman Emperor between Joseph and Franz II will be one of his other brothers (either Ferdinand called back from Milan or better Maximilian who was in the clergy and so will not have any heir)

Now Maximilian of Cologne as Emperor is an interesting scenario! I'm not sure if there were any laws over the election of a Cleric as Holy Roman Emperor (not sure if it ever came up OTL, as no dynasty would put a man unable to marry or have legitimate children) but he would serve quite well as Emperor pro tempore. There's no chance of him fathering a rival line to the Josephine branch, he has the required(?) German land and would act in the interests of his nephew. Best of all, no extended regency! Though I wonder; would Maximilian (or any of Josef's brothers for that matter) serve as Regent of the Habsburg Monarchy or would Élisabeth be able to do so?

 

[Historymaster]

By law, Leopold is the regent.

 

[Avrorrange]

If Elizabeth becomes regent then you might see earlier ,more decisive intervention in the French Revolution.

 

[isabella]

By law, Leopold is the regent.

Then Ferdinand or Maximilian will take the job as Regent together with the Imperial Crown, as Leopold has his own lands to rule and is pretty unlikely he will bother with Vienna while his nephew live and has other brothers who can rule for him

 

[Emperor Constantine]

By law, Leopold is the regent.

Not really no. Josef II could designate Leopold as Regent, but as far I as know, none of the constituent states of the Monarchy had set laws over who could be Regent. In fact, Empress Eleonor Magdalene acted as Regent of the Monarchy between her eldest son Josef's death and the arrival of her second son Karl VI almost a year later, so women could definitely hold such a position.