John Casimir Vasa, Viceroy of Portugal

Jan Olbracht

John Casimir, then "jobless" younger brother of Polish king, was offered that office by his Habsburg cousin and was on the way to Spain in 1638, but was captured and imprisoned in France for almost 2 years, before he was released in February 1640 and allowed to return home.

So what if he avoided arrest on French soil and reached his destination? Portuguese revolt against Philip IV started just 2 years later, I doubt John Casimir is going to prevent it, if that was ever possible. If he avoids troubles in France he's not going to met his future wife Marie Louise Gonzaga there, OTOH he may be married into Portuguese or Spanish aristocracy. After Portuguese revolt he's going to be jobless again, propably he departs to Spain.

And how is his Iberian adventure going to impact things in PLC after his older brother dies? Certainly election of 1648 and fate of Marie Louise is not going to look like IOTL.

@Zygmunt Stary
 

Zygmunt Stary

Jan Olbracht said:
John Casimir, then "jobless" younger brother of Polish king, was offered that office by his Habsburg cousin and was on the way to Spain in 1638, but was captured and imprisoned in France for almost 2 years, before he was released in February 1640 and allowed to return home.

So what if he avoided arrest on French soil and reached his destination? Portuguese revolt against Philip IV started just 2 years later, I doubt John Casimir is going to prevent it, if that was ever possible. If he avoids troubles in France he's not going to met his future wife Marie Louise Gonzaga there, OTOH he may be married into Portuguese or Spanish aristocracy. After Portuguese revolt he's going to be jobless again, propably he departs to Spain.

And how is his Iberian adventure going to impact things in PLC after his older brother dies? Certainly election of 1648 and fate of Marie Louise is not going to look like IOTL.

@Zygmunt Stary
Click to expand...

Well, I think JC's wife given to him by Philip would be some distant cousin of his. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Luisa_Cristina_of_Savoy would be a good candidate to marry John Casimir and Savoyard court could be convinced by Spaniards to do exactly that.
Well, why wouldn't it be possible? It's not like preventing it required literal ASB's or something. However, that was highly unlikely. As a viceroy, he'd be tied down to fighting Portuguese, so he'd have even more job than he had - that job will be hard, though.
Well, I doubt he'd be even able to get close to home in 1648. Probably nobles would not wait for him and elect Charles Ferdinand as a King, with John Casimir following him in 1655.
 

Jan Olbracht

Zygmunt Stary said:
Well, I think JC's wife given to him by Philip would be some distant cousin of his. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Luisa_Cristina_of_Savoy would be a good candidate to marry John Casimir
Click to expand...
Alternatively daughter of this guy:

en.wikipedia.org

Manuel de Moura Corte Real, 2nd Marquis of Castelo Rodrigo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Habsburg supporter from Portuguese family.

Still, after death of Karol Ferdynand JK should be elected eventually, unless butterflies keeps KF alive for longer than OTL.
 

Zygmunt Stary

Jan Olbracht said:
Alternatively daughter of this guy:

en.wikipedia.org

Manuel de Moura Corte Real, 2nd Marquis of Castelo Rodrigo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Habsburg supporter from Portuguese family.

Still, after death of Karol Ferdynand JK should be elected eventually, unless butterflies keeps KF alive for longer than OTL.
Click to expand...

That would do nicely, but I think Felipe would search for some relative. Even if it'd be "piąta woda po kisielu" (you know what I mean :) ) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_de_Aragón_Folc_de_Cardona_y_Córdoba that guy had daughter Ana Francisca, she could do.
Well, JK would probably be elected after KF's death, but he might have a son by then.
 

Jan Olbracht

Zygmunt Stary said:
That would do nicely, but I think Felipe would search for some relative. Even if it'd be "piąta woda po kisielu" (you know what I mean :) ) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_de_Aragón_Folc_de_Cardona_y_Córdoba that guy had daughter Ana Francisca, she could do.
Well, JK would probably be elected after KF's death, but he might have a son by then.
Click to expand...

John Casimir himself is way closer relative of Philip IV (first cousin) than her, so I see no need for searching for such distant relative.
 

Zygmunt Stary

Jan Olbracht said:
John Casimir himself is way closer relative of Philip IV (first cousin) than her, so I see no need for searching for such distant relative.
Click to expand...

That's a fair point, but that means that after getting Viceroy status he would do better than de Moura's daughter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Savoy daughter Margaret is in suitable age range to marry John Casimir and free, so I think if not Luisa Cristina (her mother didn't get along with Spain) than Margaret would do - her brother Francesco was at the time ally of Spain.
 

Vitruvius

The other Luisa Christina of the Savoy-Carignano branch is more likely as she's both older, resident in Madrid (at least as of the early 1640s I'm sure when Thomas Francis brought his family over). More importantly her father, Thomas Francis, Prince of Carignano, is allied to Spain where as the other Luisa Christina's mother, Christine Marie of France, as regent for her brother has allied Savoy to France.

As for Portugal, if he is given Portugal (I've seen his potential role also referred to as Admiral of Spain with no definitely Viceroyalty/governorship assigned), it's possible he could impact the Portuguese revolt. OTL Olivares decided to direct all efforts against the Catalans when the two revolts broke out essentially allowing John IV to consolidate his position in Portugal unmolested. If John Casimir fought back it could shift the course of the rebellion. Olivares had brought many Portuguese into the Spanish government especially among the conversos who leant large amounts to the crown when the Italians started refusing. So there is an element with a vested interest in preserving the Iberian union.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Would be funny if we get a sideline of Portuguese Vasas from this. Say for whatever reason Karol Ferdynand lives longer and/or marries and leaves issue. Jan Kasimierz marries some obliging relative of the Spanish kings. And in a generation or two, we wind up with a lasting Wasa Poland and Portuguese Vasas.

@RedAquilla @galik @Viriato @pandizzy
 

RedAquilla

Kellan Sullivan said:
Would be funny if we get a sideline of Portuguese Vasas from this. Say for whatever reason Karol Ferdynand lives longer and/or marries and leaves issue. Jan Kasimierz marries some obliging relative of the Spanish kings. And in a generation or two, we wind up with a lasting Wasa Poland and Portuguese Vasas.

@RedAquilla @galik @Viriato @pandizzy
Click to expand...
I confess that at first this idea came to my mind but knowing what I know of John Casimir (which is not that much) I don't think he could be made King of Portugal though it would be. He seemed far more hesitant than John IV and more pro-Habsburg plus he is a foreigner. I really don't think the Conjurados would ever approach him and he most likely would have ended up kicked from Portugal like Marguerite was. Though if he did not get depressed about being kicked and still had the trust of Philip and Olivares, he could lead the efforts to recover Portugal which could make John IV's situation far harder than OTL.
 

Emperor Lucas I

Out of all possible gains, I think the best long term gain for him would be a possible young, fertile wife. Any potential candidates?
 

Zygmunt Stary

Vitruvius said:
The other Luisa Christina of the Savoy-Carignano branch is more likely as she's both older, resident in Madrid (at least as of the early 1640s I'm sure when Thomas Francis brought his family over). More importantly her father, Thomas Francis, Prince of Carignano, is allied to Spain where as the other Luisa Christina's mother, Christine Marie of France, as regent for her brother has allied Savoy to France.

As for Portugal, if he is given Portugal (I've seen his potential role also referred to as Admiral of Spain with no definitely Viceroyalty/governorship assigned), it's possible he could impact the Portuguese revolt. OTL Olivares decided to direct all efforts against the Catalans when the two revolts broke out essentially allowing John IV to consolidate his position in Portugal unmolested. If John Casimir fought back it could shift the course of the rebellion. Olivares had brought many Portuguese into the Spanish government especially among the conversos who leant large amounts to the crown when the Italians started refusing. So there is an element with a vested interest in preserving the Iberian union.
Click to expand...

What about Margaret d'Este I mentioned before?
 

Polish Eagle

Wasn't his mission to Spain also about negotiating Polish participation in the 30 YW on the Hapsburg side? If he avoids arrest, that might go ahead.
 

Vitruvius

Jan Olbracht said:
Best window of opportunity for John Casimir to marry imho is 1638-1640, after loss of Portugal he'd be not as attractive candidate than as Viceroy.
Click to expand...
I agree. His reputation could be badly tarnished and even if its not and he retains his post he'll be busy fighting a war and will probably loose the revenues of the Viceroyalty which makes him a less attractive prospect as he's basically a penniless general.

Zygmunt Stary said:
What about Margaret d'Este I mentioned before?
Click to expand...

The d'Este are tricky too because Alfonso III and Francesco I were generally on the French side. If the marriage was negotiated early enough Anna de' Medici is a possibility but negotiations for her OTL marriage to Ferdinand Charles were pretty serious by 1642 and his mother really wanted that match to go through and since he is actually a ruler in his own right (Tyrol and Further Austria) he's a much better marriage prospect. So there are not a lot of great Italian matches to be had for him so a Spanish match could be likely.
 

Vitruvius

Polish Eagle said:
Wasn't his mission to Spain also about negotiating Polish participation in the 30 YW on the Hapsburg side? If he avoids arrest, that might go ahead.
Click to expand...

There was the alliance proposed under the Treaty of Naples but I believe those negotiations went on independent of John Casimir's actions. His move to Spain I believe was more born out of personal quest of glory and purpose and the family connection to Spain (Philip IV was his first cousin). John Casimir had actually planned on going to Spain earlier, IIRC in 1636 or 37 by way of the Spanish Netherlands but the course of the war at that point made a journey by sea from Flanders to Spain to dangerous so he returned home and then attempted the journey again via Italy. So his planned journey to Spain was came before the Polish Spanish alliance which was negotiated somewhat off the books by the Viceroy of Naples, Medina de las Torres.

But I do agree that it would impact Polish diplomacy. I believe that Richelieu forced a pledge from Wladyslaw that he would not aid the Spanish or Austrians against the French in order to secure the release of John Casimir. So that does leave more room for Wladyslaw to maneuver if he's not tied down because the French are holding his brother hostage. Though I think in the end the alliance outlined in Naples was kind of a fantasy so I'm not sure it could ever bear real fruit.
 

Vitruvius

Zygmunt Stary said:
Wiki claims that around 1638 he tried to cozy it up to Spain, so maybe that would the part of allying with Spain?
Click to expand...

Actually I suppose it is possible, depending on timing. Francesco transitioned to a pro-French position in the early 1640s. He had actually been offered the Viceroyalty of Portugal in 1631 which was shortly after the abdication of his father but he realized this was mainly a ploy by Spain to take over his Duchy as they required that the Spanish governor of Milan administer Modena in his absence. Then after he declined the offer the Spanish rebuffed his attempts to gain a Viceroyalty in Naples closer to home and did little to humor his requests for recognition of his status as Highness and claims to Ferrara which his family had lost after the death of Alfonso II (Francesco was descended from an illegitimate son of Alfonso I so his status and pedigree were suspect and the Papacy had reclaimed Ferrara).

At first Parma was the main ally of France when war broke out again in 1635 but the Spanish knocked them out pretty quickly and then Parma became entangled with the pro-French Barberini Papacy over the Castro. Which is why a Farnese bride is not terribly likely. Francesco d'Este after having soured on Spain stepped up to the plate as the next French ally in the 40s but he was equally ineffective. I believe his brother, Rinaldo Cardinal d'Este, initiated that switch of allegiance. He moved from being part of the Spanish party in the curia to being pro-French after the death of Urban VIII because the other Spanish cardinals, mainly Medici and Farnese, shut him out during the election of Innocent X and he subsequently helped secure the Este family's strong pro-French position culminating in the marriage of Alfonso IV and Laura Martinozzi. Though that's down the line.

But Francesco did pay a visit to Madrid in September 1638 to plead his case some more for his titles and a Viceroyalty (the Viceroy of Sicily had died the year earlier) so the timing is right for him to cross paths with John Casimir especially if John Casimir makes it to Madrid earlier. Though he may be miffed that a poor Polish Prince is being given a job that he himself had been clamoring for for years (especially if John Casimir was actually given the position of Admiral of Spain and Viceroy of Sicily). But if it works out a betrothal could be negotiated in Madrid in late 1638.

And speaking of timing, OTL John Casimir arrived in Genoa in time that he could have travelled to Spain in the flotilla carrying the outgoing Viceroy of Naples, Manuel de Acevedo y Zuniga, back home to Spain. But John Casimir was apparently unwell and delayed his departure necessitating a different crossing on a Genoese ship that ended up having to put ashore in Provence. So if his health holds and he departs with Zuniga he'll arrive in Spain earlier and can spend the voyage with Zuniga's entourage which may prove useful in learning the workings of the Spanish court.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top