Joe Steele Is Being Made Into a Full Novel

Not too excited. "Joe Steele" was an interesting short story concept. I'm concerned that turning the idea of Stalin as US president into a full novel will introduce all those novelistic Turtledoveisms (too many minor POV characters, filler text, too many details, needless repetitition, etc) that marred "In the Presence of Mine Enemies'" transition from great short story to a too-long full-length novel.

Turtledove usually starts with great ideas...sometimes I wish he'd just stop there.
 
Not too excited. "Joe Steele" was an interesting short story concept. I'm concerned that turning the idea of Stalin as US president into a full novel will introduce all those novelistic Turtledoveisms (too many minor POV characters, filler text, too many details, needless repetitition, etc) that marred "In the Presence of Mine Enemies'" transition from great short story to a too-long full-length novel.

Turtledove usually starts with great ideas...sometimes I wish he'd just stop there.
I'm moderately exited though the short story itself does suffer to much from "Turtledoveisms". It will be on my wait-list though for down the road as I think Turtledove does better stand-alone novels than whole series.
 
I guess I might check it out, maybe see if I can find it in a library. The short story is fairly intriguing and unique in its premise, but in its actual execution, the butterfly genocide really rubbed me the wrong way.
 
OK, so I know it's been four months already, but the book was released yesterday, and I don't feel like starting a new thread would be appropriate given the supposedly small time gap and relevance of what I'm posting. So, with that on the side, has anyone picked a copy up? I've just started reading mine.

So the story is now more narrative-driven, the main characters being two brothers named Mike and Charlie Sullivan, both reporters. The former, who initially covered FDR's campaign before the Governor's Mansion fire, is shown to be skeptical of Steele and opposes his authoritarian tendencies, while the latter is an enthusiastic Steele supporter and backs his social and economic policy, and helps get him elected to the presidency.

I haven't read the original short story, so I can't comment on the narrative, and I won't give any spoilers beyond the 1932 election, but this is shaping up to be interesting.
 
So the story is now more narrative-driven, the main characters being two brothers named Mike and Charlie Sullivan, both reporters. The former, who initially covered FDR's campaign before the Governor's Mansion fire, is shown to be skeptical of Steele and opposes his authoritarian tendencies, while the latter is an enthusiastic Steele supporter and backs his social and economic policy, and helps get him elected to the presidency.

Now that is promising. If HT can tell the story mainly through these two brothers with different perspectives (and also use the relationship between the brothers in an emotive way) this could end up being one of his best stand-alone novels.
 
Turtledove's stand alones are better then his series, I'm reading it now and it's pretty good from the start. Definately builds a good story.
 
I picked it up and started reading it yesterday. I'm about six chapters in, and I can't complain so far. Turtledove made a good call by keeping it simple with the two POV characters. The Sullivan brothers are in a position where they're close enough to have interaction with the major political leaders we're interested in, while also enough of an everyman character to reflect the different opinions about Joe Steele and his policies. It strikes a good balance that Turtledove has struggled with in the past.

I look forward to reading more.
 
I'm definitely planning on buying this. I really enjoyed the short story, so I of course want to see how Turtledove expands it into a full novel. I have to say, VidalaVida's above comments on how this work seems to be different than most of the other things Turtledove been churning out lately (such as the War that came Early and the Supervolcano series, which I haven't read heard weren't that good) gives me a lot of hope. :) If this really is the case, it seems to me that maybe Turtledove was more emotionally invested in the Joe Steele short story and so put more effort into writing it in novel form than say, say writing his aforementioned WTCE and SuperVolcano series of books. It looks to be a standalone work, so Turtledove not expecting to make any money on sequels could also be the case.
 
I picked it up and read it over the weekend. Frankly, I think it's the best thing he's written in years. I couldn't put it down and the ending was pretty stunning.
 
It took a while, but I just finished it now. In the end, I have mixed feelings. I'll try to discuss it with a minimum of spoilers, but feel free to skip if you don't want anything revealed.








The book is very well-written, I'll give it that. Turtledove can always be a snappy writer with good turns of phrase. And like I said before, his choice of POV characters struck a good balance between providing the everyman view of the story's events and the leaders' view at the head of such events. Turtledove struggled with this in the past; in TL-191 for example, How Few Remain focused entirely on the point of view of leaders/historical figures, which left me wondering what the common man was experiencing. But in the Great War book trilogy, he swung to the opposite extreme and made all the POV characters everyman characters, which left me wondering what Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and the rest were up to. This style strikes a good balance by showing how Joe Steele's regime changed American life, while also showing enough glimpses into Steele's inner circle to see how things operated at the top.

The story truly does run with its basic premise: U.S. President Joseph Stalin. I think people can argue back and forth all day with no resolution about the plausibility of the events that follow. America sees gulags, collective farms, and government/military purges. Would that actually happen in real life? I don't know. It was the Great Depression and World War II, and maybe, as the book argues, people would go along with it, since desperate times call for desperate measures and such. Maybe the Constitution would've been strong enough to place Steele on a leash. It's pointless to argue, so I'm sidestepping that question.

Perhaps my biggest disappointment with the story is that Turtledove didn't take more advantage of the moving parts that this world created. Again, TL-191 fell into this same trap; that saga wound up bring us two major alternate history scenarios for the price of one: a Confederate victory in the ACW to start, followed up by a Central Powers victory in WWI. One of my biggest gripes about TL-191 is how Turtledove did next to nothing to take advantage of the latter; a CP victory would be a huge paradigm shift that would have major implications on the cultural course of Europe and the world. But next to nothing is explored about the huge changes this could bring about, and the SGW in Europe ends up being little more than World War I with 1940s tech.

Turtledove had a similar disappointment with "Joe Steele." The basic WI premise, U.S. President Joseph Stalin, is supplemented by yet another, oft-speculated change with a lot of potential: Leon Trotsky's Soviet Union. Think of the huge changes this could've brought in the 1920s and 30s! Trotsky could've actively promoted Permanent Revolution throughout Europe, leading to even more intense Red Scares throughout the continent that change their political dynamics! Soviet Russia could've developed a much different economic and political structure, depending on Trotsky's decisions. Hitler would've had a field day rallying Nazi Germany against Russia, now that they were led by the man who they could demonize as the personification of Judeo-Bolshevism, leading tensions between the two to rise to being white hot, and further changing how WWII ends up happening. So many possibilities!

And what does Turtledove do with these possibilities? Nothing. Nada. Trotsky is just OTL Stalin with a different name. Just as oppressive with just as many prison camps. Same foreign policy decisions. When Trotsky ends up signing what is essentially Molotov-Ribbentrop with Hitler, I literally groaned out loud. You've gotta be kidding me! And then World War II in Europe goes off identical to OTL, with the same resolutions between the Western powers and USSR, without a hitch. An absolute crushing disappointment. No interesting butterflies, no nothing. At least Asia got shaken up and changed pretty significantly.

On a more micro level, a similar problem emerged with the changes in U.S. military leadership that ensued. Joe Steele purging the military of officers who failed in battle had the potential to change the course. It resulted in Omar Bradley being in charge in Europe, and Eisenhower leading the way in the Pacific. Again, this introduces another potential moving part, as the two officers could've made different military decisions than those employed in OTL. But once again, things take an identical course to OTL, which is a letdown.

It's especially glaring because Turtledove actually paid good attention to a pretty good butterfly closer to home: because Joe Steele is paranoid, authoritarian, and purges people, there's the significant butterfly of no atomic bomb during WWII. Besides providing yet more intriguing, oft-speculated ATL developments (Operation Olympic implemented, followed by Japan divided between a communist North and capitalist South), it's a good attention to detail that shows one of the most likely changes that would've come about because of how Steele was running things. I just wish Turtledove had taken more risks like these when he had the opportunity elsewhere in the story.

Incidentally...poor Japan. It was hard to read just how much that country suffered in this story. :(

In the end, the story itself was decently written, an engaging page-turner, and as mentioned before, the ending was pretty chilling. I think thematically, the story did a good job of describing the cultural contradictions of this darker, more authoritarian United States, the dilemmas citizens feel as their country becomes stronger, wealthier, and more prosperous, but less free, and how, exactly, they should feel about President Steele's place in history. Just like how TL-191 transplanted Hitler's Germany onto America, we've now seen Stalin's Russia played out in the USA. And while the former did a decent job exploring the scars brought about by destruction, defeat, and genocidal horror and guilt, the latter does a good job of exploring the confusion, uncertainty, double-think, and fear brought about by living under a brutal, yet effective and victorious tyrant. And unlike Khrushchev taking over the USSR, things aren't about to get any better for post-Joe Steele America.


In summary, well-written story with good perspective, interesting themes, and some intriguing changes when it makes the effort, but could've been better if it made full use of what it had to work with. 4 stars out of 5, imo.
 
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Do you think Turtledove actually can't of any interesting ways to add butterflies or he is just making everything the same as OTL because he knows that the average reader will be able to connect with the world better?
 
Do you think Turtledove actually can't of any interesting ways to add butterflies or he is just making everything the same as OTL because he knows that the average reader will be able to connect with the world better?

The latter he always does, who wants to bet there is a Hitler and same WWII cause
 
Do you think Turtledove actually can't of any interesting ways to add butterflies or he is just making everything the same as OTL because he knows that the average reader will be able to connect with the world better?

Probably mostly the latter. Turtledove's a smart man who knows his history, and I'd like to believe that he's aware of the multitude of changes that could be brought about my slightly different changes in details. But I think he assumes that parallelism helps sell more books, since they're more recognizable to the casual reader. I don't necessarily agree with that, but they're not my books.

I would also suggest a third possibility: simply that Turtledove is aware of the butterflies that could be caused, but sidesteps them for simplicity's sake in crafting the story.
 
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I leafed through Joe Steele at my neighborhood Barnes & Noble and I have two observations:
1. What does HT have against Prescott Bush? In his TL-191 books Bush is portrayed as Featherston's hapless Secretary of State even though in OTL Bush was born in Ohio and lived most of his life in Massachusetts or Connecticut. In Joe Steel Bush has a role as Steele's tame Chief Justice (although he is not a lawyer in OTL or TTL). In OTL Bush was a liberal Republican, a backer of Planned Parenthood and the United Negro College Education Fund and civil rights bills. Why the hate? Is HT taking out his displeasure on George W. Bush by making his grandfather a patsy for dictators?
2. I can accept a POD of Stalin's parents immigrating to the U.S. and little Joseph being born in Fresno. But how did all of Stalin's OTL henchmen make it to America also and then find their way to California to help Joe take over the U.S.?

Your obedient servant,
Alexander Hamilton
 
1. What does HT have against Prescott Bush? In his TL-191 books Bush is portrayed as Featherston's hapless Secretary of State even though in OTL Bush was born in Ohio and lived most of his life in Massachusetts or Connecticut. In Joe Steel Bush has a role as Steele's tame Chief Justice (although he is not a lawyer in OTL or TTL). In OTL Bush was a liberal Republican, a backer of Planned Parenthood and the United Negro College Education Fund and civil rights bills. Why the hate? Is HT taking out his displeasure on George W. Bush by making his grandfather a patsy for dictators?

Wasn't the TL-191 CS Secretary of State George Herbert Walker?
 
By the way, who are the members of Steele's inner circle in this book? I know J. Edgar was in the short story but I don't remember Turtledove giving any other names except The Hammer and Vice President.
 
You may be right. I do not have the TL-191 books at hand to check. On the assumption that you are correct, why would George H. Walker whose family was from Maryland and who lived in Missouri in OTL (both Union states in TL-191) be CSA Secretary of State? It seems that HT is making the alternative history grandfathers pay for the sins of the OTL grandson. I guess a prolific author is entitled to his little jokes.
 
By the way, who are the members of Steele's inner circle in this book? I know J. Edgar was in the short story but I don't remember Turtledove giving any other names except The Hammer and Vice President.

Go back and read the short story when you get a chance (or listen to it on Escapepod). Stas Mikoyan and Kagan are both mentioned early in the story (I think during the convention). The Hammer is never mentioned as Vince Scriabin in the story (like he is in the novel). He's always just refereed to as "The Hammer."


In all, I'd say it was a decent read. I haven't read any of HT since the first Atlantis book. I'm glad he didn't try to turn it into a series.
 
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