Japanese-German air bridge through Arctic (with in-flight refueling)

[trurle]

An offshot from
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/why-aerial-refueling-came-too-late-for-wwii.462555/

IOTL, northern route of air bridge between Germany and Japan was considered, but rejected because range of existing aircraft required an overflight of Soviet territory, which was politically unacceptable for Japan. With in-flight refueling of H6K, BV222 or H8K flying boats, the over-ocean air bridge become possible.
How it may work (on Japanese-Norway route):
1) Pair of H6K starts from Paramushir, and fly 2000km in formation to Bering Strait.
2) After 2000km, tanker H6K refuels other H6K and returns to base. If refuel fails, both returns to base.
3) Refueled H6K continue to Bering strait and turns to Kirkenes base in Norway.

 

[SwampTiger]

Although an interesting concept, I never heard of Japanese experiments with in-flight refueling. Would it be possible to get a supply submarine into the Arctic, Japanese or German? Finding the resupply location would be the biggest problem.

 

[SwampTiger]

Is it possible to establish a small base in the De Long Islands? The Red Northern Fleet had a base at Kotelny Island during the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Siberian_Islands

 

[trurle]

Although an interesting concept, I never heard of Japanese experiments with in-flight refueling. Would it be possible to get a supply submarine into the Arctic, Japanese or German? Finding the resupply location would be the biggest problem.

Is it possible to establish a small base in the De Long Islands? The Red Northern Fleet had a base at Kotelny Island during the war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Siberian_Islands

As i remember, Germans have operated clandestine meteorological station at Svalbard. Any larger installation in Arctic will likely call for the trouble.

Regarding Japanese/German submarines in Arctic, custom-made I-400 series may be on the edge of being practical. Any smaller submarine (including all German designs) is not likely to have enough ice-breaking capability to survive the passage with decent probability.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

In terms of distance this makes more sense than the Indian Ocean route frequently proposed. OTL the Germans did send a handful of flights via refueling stops in Bulgaria, neutral Turkey, Afghanistan, & clandestine locations in Asia. The turn around point for the flights was in Manchuria. A few metric tons of cargo were carried to help justify the flights. The Soviet Union made some attempts to interdict the refuel sites in Afghanistan or Asia with commandos. One of the seems to have succeeded.

In the example mapped above, would it be shorter to not take the dogleg to the Bering Strait. Crossing eastern Siberia instead?

 

[karatachi]

Refueling in Arctic weather with 40's technology?

 

[trurle]

In the example mapped above, would it be shorter to not take the dogleg to the Bering Strait. Crossing eastern Siberia instead?

The option was considered and IOTL rejected because it easily could become "casus belli" destroying the fragile Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact of 1941.

 

[trurle]

Refueling in Arctic weather with 40's technology?

What`s why i add "if refueling fails" mission abort option. Weather-induced flight delays would be common, but delay and tons of wasted fuel is better than the loss of airframe with all hands.
Refueling abort actually leave enough fuel in both tanker and transport to land on Kuriles, Hokkaido, Sakhalin or northern Honshu.

 

[Arcavia]

tons of wasted fuel is better than the loss of airframe with all hands.

"Tons of wasted fuel" is really not something the Germans need more of. Even Nazi Stupidity has limits, especially considering that their...imaginative proposals tended towards wunderwaffe rather than logistics.

 

[Gudestein]

In flight refueling is possible also then if prioritized so yes, but what cargo would be worth it?

 

[NoMommsen]

In flight refueling is possible also then if prioritized so yes, but what cargo would be worth it?

Blueprints ... and persons ... maybe to explain the former if some questions arise. Way faster and perhaps somewhat 'safer' than exchanging them (esp. the persons) by sub.

 

[trurle]

Nazi Stupidity has limits, especially considering that their...imaginative proposals tended towards wunderwaffe rather than logistics.

Well, Nazi engineers have invented a humble corrugated gasoline canister too..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerrycan

 

[thaddeus]

do not believe it would be feasible. my understanding Germany tried extensively a towed fuel tank concept but still not reliable? they did discover towing aircraft aloft could produce a large increase in range, the logical question would be could they tow them even further?

 

[Braden Anderson]

What if there was a joint German-Japanese Operation PLUTO through the arctic?

A submarine-towed version of the conundrums could be used to lay the pipeline across the arctic seabed. There would be a smaller hose connecting the drum to the submarine's compressor, allowing for the pneumatic adjustment of large rubber diaphragms on the sides of the drum. This controls the buoyancy of the drum, keeping it directly behind the sub without trying to float up or sink down. Perhaps the I-400 could be used for this purpose?
I'm not really sure it'd be practical though. They'd probably wait for the soviets to fall rather than build some huge thing to circumvent them.

 

[1Big Rich]

You might find this of interest:

https://sites.google.com/site/junkersju390/home/ju-390-flight-to-japan

Via the arc of a great circle, planes flying from German-occupied Ukraine could reach Japanese held territory in China....

Regards,

 

[Forcon]

In terms of distance this makes more sense than the Indian Ocean route frequently proposed. OTL the Germans did send a handful of flights via refueling stops in Bulgaria, neutral Turkey, Afghanistan, & clandestine locations in Asia. The turn around point for the flights was in Manchuria. A few metric tons of cargo were carried to help justify the flights. The Soviet Union made some attempts to interdict the refuel sites in Afghanistan or Asia with commandos. One of the seems to have succeeded.

In the example mapped above, would it be shorter to not take the dogleg to the Bering Strait. Crossing eastern Siberia instead?

Is there a wiki article for this? Sounds like an interesting thing to read.

 

[Gunnarnz]

What if there was a joint German-Japanese Operation PLUTO through the arctic?

Interesting idea, but I don't think it's practical. For one thing, we're talking a considerable distance here. Wouldn't you need a pumping station every few hundred miles to keep whatever it was flowing? Powerful ones too, because the Arctic ocean is, well, arctic... it gets pretty cold. Friction heat might be enough to keep the liquid in that state, but it won't be enthusiastic about moving.

Unfortunately, the second problem is even worse. Both Germany and Japan were chronically short of POL during the war... so what exactly is being pumped through this? There's nothing else that seems valuable enough to go to all this trouble for, but at the same time neither party has any to spare.

 

[knightdepaix]

May I ask a question? For the same trip and same cargo, does air travel or voyage spend more fuel than the other? Both Germany and Japan in 1940s were in short of fuels.

 

[Braden Anderson]

Interesting idea, but I don't think it's practical. For one thing, we're talking a considerable distance here. Wouldn't you need a pumping station every few hundred miles to keep whatever it was flowing? Powerful ones too, because the Arctic ocean is, well, arctic... it gets pretty cold. Friction heat might be enough to keep the liquid in that state, but it won't be enthusiastic about moving.

Unfortunately, the second problem is even worse. Both Germany and Japan were chronically short of POL during the war... so what exactly is being pumped through this? There's nothing else that seems valuable enough to go to all this trouble for, but at the same time neither party has any to spare.

Good point. I don't think it'd have a real purpose either.

 

[Deleted member 2186]

Albert Speer, in an early 1970s stated that there had been a secret Ju 390 flight to Japan "late in the war". The flight, by a Luftwaffe test pilot, had supposedly been non-stop via the polar route, could that be possible and would it be useful.