Japan "gives" Nazi Germany 3 or 4 carriers

[Fiji]

Someone in Japan (the emperor, Yamamoto, hell, why not Tojo) has one too many bottles of sake and comes up with a somewhat hairbrained scheme.

"suppose we give the Germans carriers and we train their pilots. Maybe they'll destroy the RN for us."

When the idea is pitched to Hitler, the latter happens to be in one of his more lucid states and goes for it. (let's say 1937-ish)

Germany supplies all te raw materials and Japan builds the carriers (either the material move to Japan ... or, slightly more realistic ... the Japanese experts head over to Germany).
German pilots train on the active Japanese carriers and even take part in some combat missions (against Chiang).
All other major German naval projects are stopped (no Bismarck, no battlecruisers, no pocket battleships) and scrapped.

Everything is rather hush hush.

So, appart from the tiny little fact that the Nazis and the Japanese never really liked eachother that much, how likely is it for Germany to keep their carriers a secret. And could they pull of a Pearl Harbour (only in Skapa Flow) ... let's say, September 5th?

 

[Wozza]

I think the practicalities of keeping an aircraft carrier secret speak for themselves.

 

[mattep74]

Differense between northen Scotland and north of Hawaii is that the North Sea has many fishing boats, comercial vessels in that area.

OH, and the brittish have radar and wouldnt be awaiting a flight of B-17s coming from that direction

 

[zoomar]

I think the "Japanese lend-lease" has some merit as about the most realistic way to give Germany a viable naval air arm. However, I have a hard time believing such a long-term development could be kept secret, even if the ships were built in German yards.

The initial sea trials of several aircraft carriers and the trainig of their air groups in the north sea or baltic would certainly be seen by somebody. These are very congested seaways. The world will know Germany has a carrier force.

On the other hand, with enough planning, I don't see why 3-4 carriers and support units could not separately sortie in peacetime over a several week period, like the Graf Spee and Deutchland did, to later assemble somewhere north of Norway and then sail for a surprise attack against Scapa Flow to start the war. However, this would require foresight the Nazis didn't have. They invaded Poland with the hope that the British and French would not enter the war. I don't see Hitler attacking Britain as the first act while there remained the chance Britain would stay out.

Other problems: So they get lucky and sink several battleships and a carrier or two at Scapa? The Royal Navy would still outnumber the KM - especially if Hitler puts all his eggs in the carrier basket. Then you are left with 4-5 fragile aircraft carriers bottled up in the North Sea, always subject to RAF raids. It is hard to imagine they'd ever be used again on offensive operations.

 

[Mike Stearns]

I think the "Japanese lend-lease" has some merit as about the most realistic way to give Germany a viable naval air arm. However, I have a hard time believing such a long-term development could be kept secret, even if the ships were built in German yards.

The initial sea trials of several aircraft carriers and the trainig of their air groups in the north sea or baltic would certainly be seen by somebody. These are very congested seaways. The world will know Germany has a carrier force.

What if they were built in Japan? Germany sends Japan all the materials it needs to build the ships while German air crews train on Japanese carriers. As for the question of how to hide them from the rest of the world, why not time their arrival so that the arrive in the Baltic or the North Sea in the middle of the night.

 

[Johnnyreb]

Yes, yes, but all these carriers plodding slowly around Cape Horn or Good Hope? Its reminiscent of a certain Russian admiral in 1905.

Actually its also reminiscent of the Artificial Intelligence in Hearts of Iron.

 

[NHBL]

Do it in the open--quite legal...

On June 18, 1935, Germany and Britian signed the Anglo-German Naval agreement. This allowed Germany to build up to 35% of Britian's naval tonnage in each class of ship. Great Britain had approximately 120,000 tons of aircraft carriers in service, and laid down Ark Royal of 27700 tons in 1935. This allows Germany about 51,000 tons of legal carriers. With a bit of fudging on the numbers, there's 2 good fleet carriers.
When the British lay down 4 more in 1937, there's a third--and when they lay down 2 more in '39, there's a fourth. All completely under the relavant treaties.

 

[Wozza]

What if they were built in Japan? Germany sends Japan all the materials it needs to build the ships while German air crews train on Japanese carriers. As for the question of how to hide them from the rest of the world, why not time their arrival so that the arrive in the Baltic or the North Sea in the middle of the night.

Do they travel the whole way round the world at night?? Trailed by supply ships for the long voyage, without escorts?


On a general note, although this is not ASB it would require radically different Nazi policies and priorities. A discussion around which could be quite interesting.

 

[David S Poepoe]

Someone in Japan (the emperor, Yamamoto, hell, why not Tojo) has one too many bottles of sake and comes up with a somewhat hairbrained scheme.

"suppose we give the Germans carriers and we train their pilots. Maybe they'll destroy the RN for us."

When the idea is pitched to Hitler, the latter happens to be in one of his more lucid states and goes for it. (let's say 1937-ish)

Not likely given how the Japanese military works. Yamamoto wouldn't suggest it, since why would he can about the presence of the Royal Navy - which is miniscule - when he has the US Navy to contend with. Tojo could suggest it, but since the Navy doesn't agree with the Army on a lot of things that won't go anywhere. The Emperor could suggest it, but he isn't consulted on a lot of things anyway.

There is also the problem that the Kriegsmarine doesn't have its own carrier aircraft. All military aircraft, maybe with some exceptions, are controlled by the Luftwaffe and Herman Goering. So the Kriegsmarine would have trained pilots but no aircraft.

NHBL is right. If this cornball scheme is going to work it might as well be done in the open. There is no way that that many ships can be built between two countries (since we're considering material being shipped overseas) and not be noticed by a third party.

Another option that may work would be the Japanese building a few merchant ships with an aim that they could be converted into carriers and then selling them to a German shipping firm.

 

[Karlos]

Maybe the germans did not need the carriers. Maybe they would have done with good long-range anti-ship aircraft. The japanese could help here, in tactics and weapons (Long-Lance), and its much easier to conceale than big ships. After all, the germans do not need to chase the RN all around, only keep control of the waters between England and the Reich. Imagine Norway, Dunkirk and, well, that other what-if battle, if the germans had such planes.

 

[The Dean]

Maybe the germans did not need the carriers. Maybe they would have done with good long-range anti-ship aircraft. The Japanese could help here, in tactics and weapons (Long-Lance), and its much easier to conceal than big ships. After all, the Germans do not need to chase the RN all around, only keep control of the waters between England and the Reich. Imagine Norway, Dunkirk and, well, that other what-if battle, if the Germans had such planes.

This bears serious consideration He 111s and FW 200s could have carried two long lances and have been used in the same way the RAF used Wellingtons in the Mediterranean theater of operations.

 

[mattep74]

The japanese didnt come up with the PH attack, it was the brittish attack on Tarantino in 1940 that showed that such attacks were doable

 

[Mike Stearns]

Do they travel the whole way round the world at night??

No. You just stay out of the shipping lanes and even if someone does see you most warships look alike to the untrained eye, so they'r not going to automatically assume that they're looking a Nazi battlegroup.

 

[Hapsburg]

And even so, if Germany does all this before WW2 starts, the British cannot do a damn thing about it without looking like a bunch of dicks, because they would be seen as the first-strikers.

 

[Michael B]

The biggest threat to the IJN is not the Royal Navy but the US Navy. Given their limited industrial capacity, giving the Germans carriers reduces the number of warships of any type that they have for themselves.

 

[Iñaki]

As say in other post in this thread,the problem of only having 3 or 4 carriers without battleships and pocket cruisers could be that they are too vulnerable without forming an authentic task force (with cruisers and battleships) to not only british carriers, also torpedoes from RN and french destroyers and submarines and even battleships, we have to remember the fate of the Glorious and her escort of two destroyers sunk by two german battlecruisers, the same could happened with the german carriers.

An interesting consecuence of this lend-lease of carriers could be more than in the material sense of having carriers in the german navy is reinforce the mechanisms of cooperation between Nazi Germany and Japan, as we know there was no a real cooperation and coordination politic of making the war between the japanese and the germans, in fact the two with some significant exceptions (the main the fact of the exchange of raw materials and technology between Japan and Germany with the use of very large submarines) pursued independent wars.

But what if this lend-lease of carriers permit japanese and germans reinforce the cooperation and colaboration to get that when the japanese attacks the allies they truly have a politic of far best cooperation in objectives, politics and mutual help with the Nazi germany.

Which would be the consecuences of a very active politic of coordination and cooperation between Germany and Japan during the World War II?

At least one thing would be clear the possible allied victory would be far more costing, this politic of cooperation would have the first great change in the lend-lease of carriers as the thread indicates, but what if this politic continues and the campaign in the Indian Ocean see large packs of japanese subs attacking the allied navigation, even more after the conquest of Burma and the Netherlands East Indians, the japanese had doubts if attacking Australia, attacking India or continuing his expansion in the east: in direction of Midway and New Caledonia and Fiji, with a far better coordinated politic between nazis and japanese surely the Indian option would the chosen, well a japanese juggernaut in the Indian Ocean and a land invasion in India could find the situation of violent unrest in India in 1942 as another factor to have a way of expel the british of India or at least made the english dominion of India a very hard and bloody affair.

 

[Tyr]

Japan building carriers for Germany- yeah it wouldn't happen.
Germany having carriers- a waste of resources. They couldn't build enough to match the RN even if they put everything into it and so they'd just be taking resources from more useful areas.

 

[lionhead]

ha, Germany start building Carriers in 1937 they better hurry the production up asthey don't have a clue how to do it, even with help from Japanese experts it would take a lot longer then in Japan. Then the carriers wouldn't be much advanced and could never match the HMS Glorious and HMS Furious. They would be utterly destroyed at Scapa Flow.

They would have been better off building more Battleships. At least they knew how to do it.

Also, if Germany would even have the resources to make 2 or 3 carriers they would do better in 1937 to give those resources to Japan, and have Japan increase its carriers number from 6 to 9. That would probably mean a more succesfull Pearl Harbor and battle for Midway.

 

[David S Poepoe]

But what if this lend-lease of carriers permit japanese and germans reinforce the cooperation and colaboration to get that when the japanese attacks the allies they truly have a politic of far best cooperation in objectives, politics and mutual help with the Nazi germany.

Which would be the consecuences of a very active politic of coordination and cooperation between Germany and Japan during the World War II?

This is an interesting question. Exactly how will the Germans and Japanese coordinate operations once Operation Barbarossa is launched? IOTL didn't they lose all direct communication between Berlin and Tokyo? Any time lag in communication is dangerous.

 

[zoomar]

While we are exploring this odd-ball idea of Aryan/Asian collusion against perfidious Albion, why not send three of the less capable Japanese light carriers to Germany in early 1939 with their full compliment of personnel and aircraft on an extended "good will" trip. Then transfer them lock stock and barrel to the teutonic barbarians and loan the crews (a la Goeben) under capable Japanese command . Maybe get good deals on German tank, jet, and rocket technology in return when it becomes available. Japs attack Scapa on August 30, 1939 for Nazis, then betray Nazis and instead of returning to Kiel, they skedaddle as fast as possible into the Atlantic, meeting up with prepositioned supply ships and escorts in the South Atlantic and head home.

How would that affect Axis relationships!