January 1943. The German View

[Carl Schwamberger]

I wanted to ask, is it possible that Germany is using some Russian/Soviet technology in this story?

Hypothetically. OTL I've seen very little about Germany using Soviet factory production or military technology. They did make some relatively small use of French or Belgian techniques/production, and Italian after September 1943. This does not seem to have been well organized.

I wondered, for example, with the Luftwaffe Ilyushin Il-2, if the Germans had seized some of the factories where the aircraft were manufactured after the victory in the East. And they have access to material, labor, why not try to produce something that will benefit them. Would the Luftwaffe even be interested in such an aircraft?

Are there any Soviet weapons systems that the Wehrmacht would really like badly enough to begin mass production of?

Really tough to say. I've seen next to nothing in my last forty years of casual reading. The army did salvage a fair number of 76.2mm caliber cannon, the Zis -3 model IIRC. Trucks salvaged as field expedient, and there were some limited numbers of tanks salvage. But, I know nothing of salvage of actual weapons production OTL. About all I can really say is OTL German use of foreign industry in occupied Europe was a bit haphazard. ie: they requisitioned 30%+ of French railway locomotives and other rolling stock by the end of 1943. Which interfered with operations of French industry, agricultural production, and supplying OB West in 1943-44. Also a number of French factory tools, the large industrial machine tools, were carried off back to Germany. But, I don't know if much of that was done OTL in the east. The Luftwaffe has in 1942 initiated a batch of new aircraft development projects. Those might seem more productive than salvaging old Soviet production ?

My best guess Much of it would be up to the whim of German business who are interested in developing the new territories.

Another question, what is the relationship between Germany and Finland now that both countries have a land connection. The Finns had big problems with the lack of material, for example, they lacked locomotives and many other equipment. In OTL Keitel said that shipping by sea must be limited, now such an excuse is no longer credible. Will Germany continue to support Finland economically and militarily, or will it end this support because Finland no longer needs it so much?

Foreign aid to Germanys allies seems to have been at the whim of Hitler, and what benefitted interested parties among the nazi leaders. Maybe the Finns can obtain some of those French or Belgian railway locomotives and freight wagons? There is not much precedence here, I'd guess that German larger would be different in this situation than during the eastern war.

I also wonder what state Leningrad is in now, can the port be used, or is it completely destroyed and the Kriegsmarine can no longer use it? If the fighting in the Baltic Sea is over, it will facilitate the training program of the submarine fleet, and the Germans will no longer have to create a convoy system for their cargo ships that import raw materials from Sweden and Finland. Such a decision would increase shipping turnover and secure more raw materials for German industry.

Yep, there's a lot of long term benefit here. Im not 100% sure, but believe the intent was to develop the Estonian ports. Lenningrad was to be razed like a lot of other Soviet cities. But, I'd not predict that as a given. There are a lot of variables & incentives to retaining what survives of of the Russian and Ukrainian cities and towns.

Are the Germans in control of Tikhvin? If so, then they have access to large reserves of bauxite, which could or should alleviate their lack of aluminum...

The Tikhvin deposits and refining facilities are well within the area the Germans would occupy. How long it takes to get appreciable quantities depends on how much destruction of the refinery, the railways, and the electric production. The modern post 1920s Soviet built refineries were dependent of electric power. Both the generation and the refinery equipment would time consuming to rebuild. The initial project goal for the Soviet modernization was 20,000 tons of refined Aluminum annually. What the German might have reach for or would have been able to reach in 2-3 years I can't guess. Ellis in table 49 of 'Brute Force' places Axis Aluminum production in 1942 as 420,000 metric tons and 432,000 in 1943. Soviet production for those two years was 51,700 & 62,300 metric tons.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Tunisia

Oberst Lang breakfasts early. He has outlined a busy day for himself. Inspcting several company position, conferring with battalion commanders. The Division commander will likely call a conference of some sort. Barely a week earlier he'd led the Greandiers of the 10th Panzer Division in a rough battle for the overlooking hills north of Medjeb al Bad. It had been a rough fight, but the enemy had failed to push on the final key peak. That had been Tommies. When the Grenadiers made counter attack they discovered the Guards battalion they had fought the previous day had disappeared, replaced by a American Army battalion. That lot had been stubborn, but poorly positioned and failed to counter attack vigorously. Lang though they would have all the high ground secured by late afternoon, when the Tommines returned and roughly handled Langs now tired grenadiers. Two more days saw the enemy withdrawn and the reinforced grenadiers holding ground that dominated the Medjeb river valley between Mdejeb al Bad and Teborra to the north east. Formost in Langs mind is preparing the battalions for new offensive action. The Tommies had given quite a scare, advancing deep into Tunisia so deeply some of their panzers overran a airfield a few kilometers north of Tunis. No they had been shoved back into the hills of the Eastern Dorsale. Lang could not predict the future, but the logical thing was to renew the attack and run them back to Algiers or at least the next range of hills or mountains. It was correct the winter rains had been increasing since early December, flooding streams, and turning the ground into mud. But, Lang saw the enemy reserves would be bogged down as vigorus local infantry action might make some appreciable tactical gains.

In the fight for the hill, Dejebl al Ahmera, the enemy had proved stubborn, but had made some mistakes. They had been mostly Tommies of the Coldstream Guards regiment, and Yanks from their First Infantry Division. His men led by veterans of the eastern from had bested them, but he wondered if their commanders had been better if that would have been the case. In the early December fighting around Tebourra and Medjeb al Bad he and his solders were not surprised to find them better than the Russians they had fought for over a year in the east. Still, it was unpleasant to learn the truth first hand. Some of the Americans had fought quite well.In the fighting for Teboura and Djedeida the light tanks had bested a panzer battalion, trading just one of their thinly armored and under gunned Stuarts for each of the superior German tanks. The ambush and destruction of a entire Panzer company had left one of the grenadier companies trapped, and the others exposed and forced to fall back. Had this "Blade Force been more that few thousand men and couple tank battalions the 10th Panzer Div would have been in serious trouble. But that was ancient history of five weeks ago. Before the rains set in the Lufwaffe and control of the Skys, reinforcements were arriving regularly, and the enemy had become singularly unaggressive.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

France



Sergent Pilot Ade had another weather break from flight ops over England. There had been more than a few the past two months as the weather front alternately blew into France off the Atlantic and North Sea. Flying weather had been predicted for the following day, and they had already been briefed on the probable mission. Another series of attacks on the RAF airfields, which were both a direct blow for air superiority and a diversion for assisting a strike on a fighter assembly site somewhere. He was just fine with not flying escort for the factory raid. The short hop to protect bombers to the airfields SW of London was quite enough. Despite the interruptions of the weather the past three months had been exhausting for Sergent Ade & the rest of the Group. Since completing the transition to the FW 190 late September they have been in the thick of the ‘English Battle’, flying nearly every day suitable for bombing. They’ed arrived after the summer battles, fought by the first groups rushed back west. And, they’d known the fight was going to be tough. Despite the victories of the summer and easily fending off the English air incursions into France the Luftwaffe attack that are to force the English into peace are not yet sucessful. Now they are seeing increasing numbers of the American Warhawks, Wildcats, and the dammable Lightings. While there is still belief in victory Adamscki is starting to lose his optimism about seeing it. He was downed once, his FW 190 shattered by hailstorm of bullets from a Lightning. They’d been jumped returning home just before crossing the French coast. The armor plate had saved him from the Browning guns, the fire extinguisher from the gout of flame, the parachute from the fall into the French seaside town. Two many other missions he’d returned with more damage than just bullet punctures. His second mission, at the start of October had resulted in a wheels up landing. Those early October missions had been something of a shock. The Group had gotten used to the Bolshivik air men, with their inferior machines, poor tactics, and weak training. The English and Ami were far more aggressive, were skilled tactically, and had wonderful machines. In the East he’d lost more comrades to accidents than in combat. Now combat accounted for more machines and air crew than flying mistakes or machine failures. He had to admit too many, including himself had gotten sloppy & paid dearly. Now it was a increasingly tough struggle to get enough English planes shot down that they would give up and make peace.



Drinking Erzatz Coffee in the day room he sees the chief mechanic & maintinance officer come in and join the Group commander. They have bad news. It will be near impossible to get the full number of aircraft allotted on the mission tomorrow. One short of flyable machines and no chance of getting any of the damaged planes ready. To few parts at hand and telephone calls to the other airfields have turned up to few spares. Ade wonders who will be cut from the flight roster.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Rundstedt



Fulmiating over the latest message from OKW Rundstedt considers his options. It seems he is being placed yet again as scapegoat for the delays and potential future failures of the war against England. The posting a year earlier to command OB West had been one insult from the Grofaz. Installing the new darling of the Reich ,Von Paulus, as the point man in the ground war was another. So far there was not much ground war. There was a idea at first the Luftwaffe would intimidate England as the Red Army fell apart in the spring, so plans were made and air groups moved back west. The threat failed to elicit any sign of readiness to make peace, neither did a brief late summer air offensive intended as a demonstration. Now since late autum there had been a full on air offensive, that in Rundsteadts views was failing also. The most recent message from OKW had questions about the support of OB West for Luftwaffe defense of its airfields had a implication he should have somehow downed the enemy aircraft himself.

Equally unproductive on the ground had been a large scale commando raid on the channel coast. Gobbels had of course spun it as a brilliant blow and near decisive victory. The reality Rundsteadt saw in the casualty lists was the raiding force had been massacred. The post action reports showed the fight ashore to be bad enough, but the bulk of the losses had been when the Royal Navy intercepted the boats returning to France. Those not drowned had been confirmed prisoners. Only a few thousand lucky soldiers and mariners had evaded the English warships and made it back to safety. Paulus had escaped responsibility for the fiasco as he had just taken up command of the new Army Group E. Rundsteadt who had been commanding OB West from the conception to execution of Operation Cerbus did take some censure for the outcome. Grossly unwarranted in his view. The Op was not his idea, was commanded by that Drudge Manstein, he had sent a written description of the flaws in planning and preparation. Yet that ass Keitel has insinuated to Rundsteadt it was his weak support that contributed to its failure. He’d assumed after that meeting with Keitel he was headed for another empty command elsewhere, or full retirement. Yet that had not happened, and the subsequent meetings with Hitler & the OKW staff had been much less threatening. Well who knows Keitel was always up to games & perhaps the implied threats had been his ideas and not those of Hitler. OKW had become in Rundsteadts view a snake pit of intrigue and political plotting since Halders departure. Just weeks away from the Malta disaster the assumption had not unreasonably been all ideas of invading England,or anywhere else would be dropped, & for a few months it seemed that way. Yet gradually new plans were developed and preparations underway for another larger and more elaborate cross Channel operation. There was also a rumor another Malta operation was planned. Both in Rundsteadts view were more failure. Everything depended on air superiority, domination of the air really, and it was increasingly clear the Luftwaffe was struggling to achieve this. One problem was clearly the splitting of the air forces between the Mediteranean and the attack on England. From the moment forces were first shifted from the east there was no clear priority. It was desired the English be struck, and the result was they were struck everywhere. It had been a bloody battle over England & promised to continue to be bloody, but nothing else would happen until that bloodshed produced results. In anticipation of that result another larger and more ambitious Invasion preparation was underway & if the rumors were correct for attacking Malta again.

There were of course a hundred other rumors. The Bolshiviks were about to attack in the east, the Army of the East was about to attack to conquor Siberia, the Army of the Caucasius was to invade Persia, ...or Mesopotamia, ...or Turky, or Palestine, ...or Egypt, ...or Algeria, ..or Portugal. Or the enemy was about to invade about anywhere. In Rundsteadts opinion the war was stalemated . Neither side had much chance to achieve anything decisive, unless one destroyed the others air forces. Peace need to be accepted and the new order in Europe formalized.

Rundsteadt abandons his revire and takes up another report. This one is from the logistics section, describing the railroad traffic in OB Wests area. The bottom line he quickly sees is the French and Belgian railways are clogged. The shift of large ground and air forces from the east, has strained the railways, the demand for reparations and other material from France has also strained the railways. The stripping of the French railways of rolling stock in 1941 and 1942 for the defeat of the Bolshiviks strained the railways, since little of that has returned. The enemy has made a effort to bomb the Franco Belgian transportation system has added insult. The RAFs effort of the previous two years to damage the railways had been insignificant despite the relatively weak German air defense. Then after the Reds had been clearly collapsing the English had stepped up their game and made a noticeable number or raids on the French industry and damaged some railways. Perhaps it was the number of American bomber groups trickling in during the latter half of 1942 that made them bold. The big heavily armed Fortress bombers certainly contributed to that. The result was in the last month or two the enemy aircraft had actually done some damage. The cost was enormous to the attackers despite the equally large cost to the German interceptors. Rundsteadt considered the existing damage and then the Abwehrs estimates for the growth of the enemy air forces in 1943. Whatever the probable losses inflicted on them the numbers projected could do yet greater damage to the railways servicing OB West. Another incentive to arraign a peace he thought.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Any experts on the anti nazi or anti Hitler conspiracies following? Outside the forum the question came up where those active groups go from here? My knowledge is uneven so I'd left all that out of what I'd written so far. Any thoughts?

 

[Parma]

How is fertilizer production goiing? Or is nearly all nitrogin production used for amunition production? The food production in West Europe dramaticly declined mainly due to the shortage of fertilizer, i can imagine the situation in the East isn't much better, probably worse on the huge former, comunist state owned farms.
An army marches on food, and the occupaid countires are better controled if their population doesn't have hunger.

Acutaly it is more a question if the National Socialist getting their production and transport sorted out in the commming months now the war in the East is much less intense. If this doesn't happen soon, and they continue with their locust economy as in OTL the future for the National Socialist will end more or less the same as in OTL.

You mentioned locomotives from France and Belgium but, as you mentioned as well, this will harm transport and production in these countries as well. How about the production of the German war locomotives like the DRB class 52? Since there is no active front in the East the capacity of these locomotives could used for other purposes than only hauling war material and war goods, I think? The production of the DRB 52 also shows a form of rationalisation and standardisation between the various producers, which by 1943 could be expanded to the Belgian and French producers of locomotives.

This as an example how production capacity can be increased and probnably will be increased due due to the colapse of the Sovjet Union. The East front was a huge drain of goods,material and men, requiring more than the German production capacity could handle, now this black hole is gone.
The colapse of the Sovjet Union will have a very large effect on the morale of the (West) Europeans. The psychological effect should not be underestimated. Many citizens and factory owners will accept the reality and adjust to the new order, as nealry all of them already did, and this will be noticed in increased production figures, not only for war material but nearly all items inderect needed for a war. The only thing hampering is the near Socialist/communist way of running an economy as the National Socialist did but whitout an East front it should be soon improving.

​

Kriegslokomotive - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

How is fertilizer production goiing? Or is nearly all nitrogin production used for amunition production? The food production in West Europe dramaticly declined mainly due to the shortage of fertilizer, i can imagine the situation in the East isn't much better, probably worse on the huge former, comunist state owned farms.
An army marches on food, and the occupaid countires are better controled if their population doesn't have hunger.

Tough question. My best guess is any changes, positive or negative will be come clear after the 1943 harvest. Aside from fertilizer there's been petroleum rationing interfering with agriculture production the past three years. At this point 1943 or back in 1939 German agriculture was not as mechanized as the US, or Britan. To fully realize the value of the eastern, grain farms, or west European farms a substantial advance in mechanization needs to occur, that's going to take time. More than a year or two. I don't know the details of food availability in 1942 or 43 OTL. I can say that in the winter/spring 1941 there was very restrictive meat rationing in Western Europe. Had the fishing industry not continued without interference that winter there would have been a serious portion shortage or famine. The Blockade had shut off imports from the Americas and regions like the Australian Wheat farms, or the Mekong Rice farms. Lybia and French North African were still a source for grain and fruit in 1941, but OTL that was shut off late 1942.

In the east it would take decades for sturdy German settlers to affect the grain & meat production there. Meanwhile any sylphs for the rest of Europe would depend on how efficiently the nazi management gets the surviving Urkrainians, Russians, Beylorus, ect... to work. That agricultural labor force is one that had two decades experience evading Communist efforts to make them work harder & more efficiently. How the nazis will do I won't say.

Acutaly it is more a question if the National Socialist getting their production and transport sorted out in the commming months now the war in the East is much less intense. If this doesn't happen soon, and they continue with their locust economy as in OTL the future for the National Socialist will end more or less the same as in OTL.

One would think there would be some improvement, tho the track record to this point is not stellar.

You mentioned locomotives from France and Belgium but, as you mentioned as well, this will harm transport and production in these countries as well. How about the production of the German war locomotives like the DRB class 52? Since there is no active front in the East the capacity of these locomotives could used for other purposes than only hauling war material and war goods, I think? The production of the DRB 52 also shows a form of rationalisation and standardisation between the various producers, which by 1943 could be expanded to the Belgian and French producers of locomotives.

Its really dependent on how much serious attention is paid to this. That Speer is at work may be a help. But, the possibility of continuation of the war with Britan could interfere with halting the development of a war economy, that was started in 1942.

This as an example how production capacity can be increased and probnably will be increased due due to the colapse of the Sovjet Union. The East front was a huge drain of goods,material and men, requiring more than the German production capacity could handle, now this black hole is gone.
The colapse of the Sovjet Union will have a very large effect on the morale of the (West) Europeans. The psychological effect should not be underestimated. Many citizens and factory owners will accept the reality and adjust to the new order, as nealry all of them already did, and this will be noticed in increased production figures, not only for war material but nearly all items inderect needed for a war. The only thing hampering is the near Socialist/communist way of running an economy as the National Socialist did but whitout an East front it should be soon improving.

Kriegslokomotive - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

It does give the west Europeans some hope. OTL there was a major drop in moral across the board when Britan failed to negotiate a peace back in 1941. The French government had accepted the armistice thinking a peace treaty would be negotiated in 1941 and the occupation long over by 43. It was the first blow to Petains prestige when that did not happen. Now once again they are waiting for Britan, and after many months the war is still ongoing.

 

[Parma]

Thanks for your reply, on this off topic details of your very nice to read story.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Berlin

Former police officer, former Army intelligence officer, former and now once again private investigator Bernhard Gunther is busy writing a report for a insurance company. They contracted him to gather information on some suspected fraud, theft of automobiles that may have not been stolen. Tedious stuff but it paid reasonably. Since his discharge from active service four months ago there had been a look at employee theft, and some petty stuff. Enough work to pay the rent & suggest business would normal for investigators soon. He'd turned away one gentleman who was insistent Jews had stolen his family estate from his grand father. And, as before he'd refused divorce investigations and similar family disputes. Too emotional and the pay unpredictable.

HIs typist had proved a disappointment. Gunther had know the mans work as clerk in the army, but he was frequently distracted, thinking he should be at more glamourus work. Also he was drinking far too much and the hangovers showed on the pages he'd done. For clerical work like this there was still a shortage of candidates. The nazi Party policies of keeping women out of the offices were still enforces. & Gunther was sure it was going to take some time to replace the young man. He did notice there were still a lot of women cleaning. The office buildings halls, the apartments, the resturants, toilets. Officially it was all male janitors, but more often one saw some middle aged or elderly woman carrying the bucket of scrub brushes and the broom.

Most of his comrades in the Army had scattered back into Berlin, or Brandenberg. A few to other cities in the Reich. He'd had contact with two since then and heard third hand stories about others. Like most veterans he supposed they were trying to rebuild their lives and ignore that the war was not yet over. Ration coupons, blackouts, and unpredictable supplies of consumer goods was the normal day. The nazi made their usual show of running everything in a proper disciplined manner, and the Berliners behaved as they had far back into the Kaisers time. The employee theft and the insurance fraud he was working on were examples of little changing. Both were clearly connected to one or another the petty gangs. He'd not be surprised if a name he'd encountered as a Criminal Department Officer turned up. These little ill defined groups kept the rationing bearable. With some discrete questions and a few Marks one could find food, good quality goods, or certain luxury items if you could afford them.

Few people talked in much depth about the war. Remarks about relatives still in service, or who had died. or were in some sanitarium maimed, were common, and occasional brief conversations about the news from Africa or what the English and Ami. were up to. Most Berliners ignored it as much as the y could. If you wanted to talk about war there were the part faithful that would give you a ernest conversation on it. Most hoped the next newspaper headline would announce the English had agreed to peace. If one wanted rumors there were the usual, Gunther ignored them outside of where they connected to his work.

It was dark now, and a slow icy rain still falling. Gunther thought he'd stop in the bar around the corner, a dark and quiet place where he could have a shot of Klare and some food before returning to his apartment. Jazz music was discouraged in the Reich, but the musicians there were clever at making unobtrusive and interesting background sound.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Rundstedt



Equally unproductive on the ground had been a large scale commando raid on the channel coast.

Some one must have been bonkers to think that would work!

The Coastal Forces (MTBs, MGBs and other armed vessels) would have made short shrift of any attacking force

I take it this was a reverse Dieppe?

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Note the timing. Its in the same general period as the attack on Malta. My thoughts were Hitler & Co thought to strike a couple additional blows on Britain as the Red Army retreat from Europe was clear. Rommel was at the gates of Egypt, so taking Malta, and ravishing Folkstone or somewhere would hasten the British into a armistice. OTL the RODEO & CIRCUS air operations and Channel Dash had given the Germans a bit of overconfidence about their ability to conduct operations in the Channel area. Yes from our perspective its bonkers, but we are looking at things from the other direction.

 

[Parma]

Berlin

Nice update of the common German city citizen, living in the National socialist police state, the hardly mentioned war and making the best of it.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

That was a recent add on. Filler while I researching other material. Theres also a inside joke there, placed to see who gets it.

Some parts of Germany were more supportive of the war and the nazi vision. The German accounts of the war often refer to the cynicism and apolitical nature of Berliners, & the character I named fits that vibe.

 

[Seandineen]

Is Subas Bose still building his Indian National Army under Japanese/German sponsorship?

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

I don't see why that would change. At least by this date.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Flight Sgt Ade is on the next days mission. They are to escort a group of Ju88 to a airfield directly south of London. A new one the Yanks have been building this winter. His squadron has drawn the high cover assignment. The cloud cover is 60%. Towering Cumulous behind a front that has already crossed the Channel and advanced into France. At that density they create walls of dense mist bracketing irregular and shifting canyons and wells. He wonders if they will even be able to see the bombers & close cover Jabos near 1000 meters below. When the take off the haze is not very dense and the squadron is able to climb to altitude without fuss. Circling for a minute or two, the squadron leaders signals to take the mission azimuth and start. The bombers below have signaled they are doing the same. Its hardly twenty minutes to the target & they are crossing the Channel in only four minutes, so there is zero time to relax. As expected they are well below the head of the clouds and alternately plunging into mist and out again into sun light at entirely irregular moments.

Frustrated the commander orders two pilots to accelerate ahead to take a warning position for any attacks from ahead. Odds are the English are vectoring their jabos onto both his little group, and others onto the gaggle of bombers and fighters below. A couple more minutes and warning shout comes over the radio, Ade strains his eyes ahead but sees streams of tracers almost the same moment he spots some indistinct fighter shapes ahead. In three second the enemy had his plane flash past. Even bore that the squadron commanders is directing them to join the bombers. Guessing the bomber formation is on the same course and forward, he noses over the FW 190. Two more of the enemy fighters appear below and right heading in the same direction at a crossing angle. A order squwaks on the radio & he sees his lead pilot turn towards the pair. Following in a diving turn they see the targets turn themselves. Abruptly he is in a cloud and loses every one. Reaching the altitude the bombers were assigned he turns in that direction and levels off a few hundred meters below. The clouds break & no one is in sight. The the cloud breaks into a wide open section of sky. In the distance he sees clearly a FW190 spiraling down with what is presumably its missing wing fluttering down higher and slower. Climbing slowly for some altitude he sets a course France and skips through several patches of cloud. Another fighter with his squadron colors appears a little below and on a similar course. Cautiosly he matches course and calls to the radio. The pair close in and he takes the second position and rapidly scans behind and above. Two minutes later they spot another fighter from a different group and cautiously close in. The stranger is on a different frequency and clearly a rookie. With some patient coaxing the lead gets him to close in with the pair. A few more minutes and they are at the Channel. He is able to spot where they are but, the lead obtains a vector from a ground station. Setting back down he leads that several enemy shots and made all but one MG inoperable. Since he's one shot of Scnapps the news is not as edgy as it might have been. He sets up a second and settles down to wait for news of a possible afternoon mission and lunch.

 

[Aber]

Berlin

Former police officer, former Army intelligence officer, former and now once again private investigator Bernhard Gunther is busy writing a report for a insurance company.

👍 Of course, also former house detective at the Adlon, and renowned for catching Gormann the strangler.

 

[Ramontxo]

Just a question on your excellent TL. I just doubt that with the USSR collapsing the WAllies would have launched Torch instead of going for an, even earlier, version of Roundup. Of course you may be planning for Roundup in 1943 anyway. But in this TL, with German planes flying constantly over South England, there would not be any chance of something like Fortitude working. And the German reserves are overwhelming. In @CalBear's tale with an similar POD there are several years of strategic impasse. It is your TL and am waiting to see where this goes

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Just a question on your excellent TL. I just doubt that with the USSR collapsing the WAllies would have launched Torch instead of going for an, even earlier, version of Roundup. Of course you may be planning for Roundup in 1943 anyway. But in this TL, with German planes flying constantly over South England, there would not be any chance of something like Fortitude working. And the German reserves are overwhelming. In @CalBear's tale with an similar POD there are several years of strategic impasse. It is your TL and am waiting to see where this goes

It could have gone that way. Or not. I've gone deep enough into the multiple strategy conferences of 1941 - 1942 to understand how much confusion there was in Allied strategic thinking in 1942. There are some strong arguments against a SLEDGEHAMMER or a ROUNDUP type operation in 1942, mostly based on how unprepared the British and US Armies & Air Forces were for doing such a thing. Even in September 1942 getting together a army of ten combat worthy divisions in problematic. From October the flow of trained formations and material is accelerating hence the OTL ability to execute Op GYMNAST or TORCH.

Going ahead with a occupation of NW Africa makes some strategic sense. It looks relatively low cost going in, it cuts off a food and minerals source or conduit for occupied Europe, and gives the Free French something to bargain with if a peace negotiation starts in 1943. nothing earth shaking, but not trivial either.

If I'd had time & inclination I'd have done some deeper research and gamed out a SLEDGEHAMMER type scenario for this, but am reluctant to insert another major PoD into what is already on the edge.

 

[Aber]

Just a question on your excellent TL. I just doubt that with the USSR collapsing the WAllies would have launched Torch instead of going for an, even earlier, version of Roundup.

Simply not enough US forces available, and the British are not risking losing another campaign in France.

Allied grand strategy is probably focus on Middle East and Mediterranean - need to prevent a German drive to the Persian Gulf, limit oil supplies from Baku and Ploesti, stretch German defences around the whole European coast from Greece to Norway, and protect the UK.

Amphibious operations are more attractive in the Med as the targets can be isolated - Sardinia, Sicily, Crete- but will need to bleed the Luftwaffe dry first, which may happen faster if the Germans are attacking the UK.