Italy united by Leopold II of Tuscany

[TheWitheredStriker]

I love alternate unifications of Italy, but based on my research, it seems that next to the Savoyard state, the only Italian polity both willing and able to unify Italy was the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, led by Leopold II of Habsburg-Tuscany (a local Italian branch of the Habsburgs, much like the Austria-Este). Leopold II was the only non-Savoyard monarch in Italy to actually be well-liked by his subjects; he was liberal, actively attempted to develop his country, and was even sympathetic to the Italian revolutionaries. However, from what I remember, Austria didn't like that even one bit and placed Tuscany under military occupation, preventing Leopold from doing anything stupid.

I'd be down to try to have Leopold unite Italy instead. That being said, this leaves the Savoyards as a major problem. Thankfully, it seems they weren't particularly popular in their polity either. IOTL, Sardinia's defeat in the First Italian War of Independence led to Carlo Alberto having to abdicate, and to Sardinia transitioning from an absolute to a constitutional monarchy. Is it possible for the Savoyards to outright be overthrown here, as I have seen others suggest before?

Basically, my question is: How could Leopold II unite Italy, and how could the Savoyards be neutralized? Furthermore, since we've completely changed Italian history, I inevitably have to ask: What follows? Will Italy still acquire Venice/Lombardy in some form? How will the familial ties between the Italian and Austrian royalty impact their countries' relations? And what would Italian foreign policy be like? Some insight would be much appreciated

 

[Don Corleone]

Me when I hear his name:

 

[Clandango]

I love alternate unifications of Italy, but based on my research, it seems that next to the Savoyard state, the only Italian polity both willing and able to unify Italy was the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, led by Leopold II of Habsburg-Tuscany (a local Italian branch of the Habsburgs, much like the Austria-Este). Leopold II was the only non-Savoyard monarch in Italy to actually be well-liked by his subjects; he was liberal, actively attempted to develop his country, and was even sympathetic to the Italian revolutionaries. However, from what I remember, Austria didn't like that even one bit and placed Tuscany under military occupation, preventing Leopold from doing anything stupid.

I'd be down to try to have Leopold unite Italy instead. That being said, this leaves the Savoyards as a major problem. Thankfully, it seems they weren't particularly popular in their polity either. IOTL, Sardinia's defeat in the First Italian War of Independence led to Carlo Alberto having to abdicate, and to Sardinia transitioning from an absolute to a constitutional monarchy. Is it possible for the Savoyards to outright be overthrown here, as I have seen others suggest before?

Basically, my question is: How could Leopold II unite Italy, and how could the Savoyards be neutralized? Furthermore, since we've completely changed Italian history, I inevitably have to ask: What follows? Will Italy still acquire Venice/Lombardy in some form? How will the familial ties between the Italian and Austrian royalty impact their countries' relations? And what would Italian foreign policy be like? Some insight would be much appreciated

It seems that Leopold II asked the Austrians to enter Tuscany to help restore order. He acted like he didn’t later, as they came after Tuscans asked him back to avoid things going south, but it doesn’t seem as though Austria was forcing their way in. There were a couple revolutions going on at the time. Anyways, the House of Savoy is not giving up their claims to leadership, the Two Sicilians had both royals and revolutionaries of their own, the Papal States had large chunks of land (some which did belong for centuries to nearby states, but a bit late to do partitioning to give Modena and Tuscany Ravenna, Ferrara, and Bologna). Then of course there was Austria with Venice and Milan. Maybe if they are willing to give up Milan to some Italian Kingdom, or if they can spread around enough money for the Dukes of Modena and Parma to go along with things. I really don’t see many ways to get Leopold as the king of the whole peninsula.

 

[Historymaster]

It seems that Leopold II asked the Austrians to enter Tuscany to help restore order. He acted like he didn’t later, as they came after Tuscans asked him back to avoid things going south, but it doesn’t seem as though Austria was forcing their way in. There were a couple revolutions going on at the time. Anyways, the House of Savoy is not giving up their claims to leadership, the Two Sicilians had both royals and revolutionaries of their own, the Papal States had large chunks of land (some which did belong for centuries to nearby states, but a bit late to do partitioning to give Modena and Tuscany Ravenna, Ferrara, and Bologna). Then of course there was Austria with Venice and Milan. Maybe if they are willing to give up Milan to some Italian Kingdom, or if they can spread around enough money for the Dukes of Modena and Parma to go along with things. I really don’t see many ways to get Leopold as the king of the whole peninsula.

A lot of Luck and epic level diplomacy.

 

[Clandango]

A lot of Luck and epic level diplomacy.

Or the Bishop of Rome secularizes his lands with himself as Duke and marries into the the family in charge of Tuscany. The leaders of the smaller Italian duchies get a chance for extra estates and keep their independence within a new Holy Roman Empire, with Ancona, Siena, and Emilia having decade long terms for governorship, with the Bourbons and Hapsburg’s mixing around with former leaders and the descendants of Doges. Depends who has enough money and if foreign countries still want to marry into their families. Do you think Pontecorvo would be Roman/Tuscan, Sicilian/Neapolitan, or would it be given to Sweden in a personal union?

 

[TrickyApe]

How about altered victory conditions after France defeats Austria in 1859?

Instead of giving Milan to Sardinia, Napoleon III changes his mind and gets Austria to cede all of its territories in Italy to Leopold, as a friendly but non-affiliated Kingdom.
Parma and Modena can join too. Perhaps both France and Austria get trade concessions there.

Sardinia is in a sense screwed, but since the French intervention was to protect that kingdom and the protection is accomplished, there is only so much to complain about.

France would presumably have to give up the idea of obtaining Nice and Savoy, but avoiding the creation of a rival Great Power in Italy more than balances out the lack of these small territories.

 

[Evil Crusader]

I'm drawing a blank and forced to call ASB here.
Tuscany simply does not have the powerbase needed, so for it to happen outside influences must conspire solely to give (most of) Italy to Tuscany.

 

[renard_]

a starting point would be that Tuscany in 1815 acquired Corsica from France, I have heard that the Corsicans were good warriors with a warrior mentality, this maybe could be a possible starting point

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

a starting point would be that Tuscany in 1815 acquired Corsica from France, I have heard that the Corsicans were good warriors with a warrior mentality, this maybe could be a possible starting point

what about Francesco V of Modena? FWIR he was actually interested in the idea - at least prior to 1848. Yes, he's conservative, but a) that's not necessarily a bad thing, Wilhelm I wasn't exactly known for being liberal; and imperial Germany never struggled for recognition the same way that the united Italy did (even being liberal); b) he's got connections elsewhere (pretty much the only Italian ruler to have those outside of the Italian Habsburg-Borbone shuffle) and c) the Habsburg-Estes were far wealthier than the Savoys or Parma Bourbons (even the Tuscan Habsburgs IIRC) in 1848, even at the end of Francesco's life

 

[renard_]

I remember reading somewhere that Francesco IV of Modena was somehow involved with the liberal revolt of Ciro Menotti around Central Italy, only that under pressure from Vienna Francesco IV gave up and was happy to have Francesco executed Modena Menotti, I'm not too sure about this fact, I should review my sources

 

[renard_]

and always with regard to the Este, if you are interested I am writing an alternative timeline on them, but my starting point is not the nineteenth century, but the seventeenth century, if you are interested I could also give it to you

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

How about altered victory conditions after France defeats Austria in 1859?

Instead of giving Milan to Sardinia, Napoleon III changes his mind and gets Austria to cede all of its territories in Italy to Leopold, as a friendly but non-affiliated Kingdom.
Parma and Modena can join too. Perhaps both France and Austria get trade concessions there.

Sardinia is in a sense screwed, but since the French intervention was to protect that kingdom and the protection is accomplished, there is only so much to complain about.

France would presumably have to give up the idea of obtaining Nice and Savoy, but avoiding the creation of a rival Great Power in Italy more than balances out the lack of these small territories.

the Second Empire "threeway split" of Italy was that Sardinia would get the whole of the north- including Venetia, but Venice would remain a free port. The papal states would be given to Leopoldo and the kingdom of Sicily to one of the Murats. The idea changed as time went by with Vienna being willing to play ball only if Leopoldo was given Naples-Sicily, and they kept Venetia, but Sardinia would get the papal states

 

[renard_]

the Second Empire "threeway split" of Italy was that Sardinia would get the whole of the north- including Venetia, but Venice would remain a free port. The papal states would be given to Leopoldo and the kingdom of Sicily to one of the Murats. The idea changed as time went by with Vienna being willing to play ball only if Leopoldo was given Naples-Sicily, and they kept Venetia, but Sardinia would get the papal states

in reality, from what I read from the treaties of Plombieres, it seems to me that a "Kingdom of central Italy" should have been born from the union of Tuscany, the Marches and Umbria, and would have been entrusted to a relative of Napoleon III , the name of this man escapes me but I know that he was known at the time as "Plon-Plon", while in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies the Murats would have been restored, Italy should have been a confederation with the pope in the guise of "Honorary President ", which in my opinion seems to be just a giga French protectorate, and disadvantageous for the House of Savoy since they could no longer venture expansion moves in the future unless authorized by France

 

[Evil Crusader]

a starting point would be that Tuscany in 1815 acquired Corsica from France, I have heard that the Corsicans were good warriors with a warrior mentality, this maybe could be a possible starting point

Corsicans also had strong cultural ties with Tuscany, with many élites studying in Pisa until Napoleon II started cracking down and started actual integration.

 

[renard_]

I corsi avevano anche forti legami culturali con la Toscana, con molte élite che studiavano a Pisa fino a quando Napoleone II iniziò la repressione e iniziò una vera e propria integrazione.

I read somewhere in a forum thread that the cession of Corsica to the Grand Duchy of Tuscany had been seriously evaluated at the Congress of Vienna but unfortunately I don't remember this thread nor do I have the sources to be able to confirm this fact

 

[TrickyApe]

in reality, from what I read from the treaties of Plombieres, it seems to me that a "Kingdom of central Italy" should have been born from the union of Tuscany, the Marches and Umbria, and would have been entrusted to a relative of Napoleon III , the name of this man escapes me but I know that he was known at the time as "Plon-Plon", while in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies the Murats would have been restored, Italy should have been a confederation with the pope in the guise of "Honorary President ", which in my opinion seems to be just a giga French protectorate, and disadvantageous for the House of Savoy since they could no longer venture expansion moves in the future unless authorized by France

the Second Empire "threeway split" of Italy was that Sardinia would get the whole of the north- including Venetia, but Venice would remain a free port. The papal states would be given to Leopoldo and the kingdom of Sicily to one of the Murats. The idea changed as time went by with Vienna being willing to play ball only if Leopoldo was given Naples-Sicily, and they kept Venetia, but Sardinia would get the papal states

I guess I should have known that Napoleon III would have a cunning plan even more convoluted and unworkable than the ones we come up with on here.

So at the same time as he was pandering to Catholic opinion at home, he was going to dispossess the Pope? And with no apparent justification, not even the later OTL one of "united Italy needs Rome"? Genius.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I guess I should have known that Napoleon III would have a cunning plan even more convoluted and unworkable than the ones we come up with on here.

even Vienna's foreign ministry (as...incoherent as it was at the time) knew it was unworkable. One remarked of the first idea that if they allowed Sardinia to be ceded either Venetia or the Papal States, but that Austria got nothing in return*, next they would be expected to trade the Tirol for Mesopotamia or the Egerland for Crete**.

*France's offer - like Prussia's later - was always nothing more than "support" of Austria in the Balkans, regardless of their alliances with Russia at the time of the promise
**I tend to think that (think it was Beust that said this OTL, although in my TL I've got Louis Philippe make a similar offer to Metternich, and Frankie dismisses it with the same words) they were simply underlining the fact of "something for nothing" rather than expressing any desire for an overseas empire

 

[TheWitheredStriker]

I remember reading somewhere that Francesco IV of Modena was somehow involved with the liberal revolt of Ciro Menotti around Central Italy, only that under pressure from Vienna Francesco IV gave up and was happy to have Francesco executed Modena Menotti, I'm not too sure about this fact, I should review my sources

Interesting! Can you elaborate on this?

 

[Historymaster]

what about Francesco V of Modena? FWIR he was actually interested in the idea - at least prior to 1848. Yes, he's conservative, but a) that's not necessarily a bad thing, Wilhelm I wasn't exactly known for being liberal; and imperial Germany never struggled for recognition the same way that the united Italy did (even being liberal); b) he's got connections elsewhere (pretty much the only Italian ruler to have those outside of the Italian Habsburg-Borbone shuffle) and c) the Habsburg-Estes were far wealthier than the Savoys or Parma Bourbons (even the Tuscan Habsburgs IIRC) in 1848, even at the end of Francesco's life

There was actually a good chance for Francesco V to get Sardinia. All it needs is for Metternich to keep his nose out of the matter of succession, letting Carlo Felice write the Pragmatical Sanction, passing the title to Francesco V as the son of his eldest niece.

 

[renard_]

There was actually a good chance for Francesco V to get Sardinia. All it needs is for Metternich to keep his nose out of the matter of succession, letting Carlo Felice write the Pragmatical Sanction, passing the title to Francesco V as the son of his eldest niece.

I don't think it would have been that easy, after all it was Metternich himself who said: "forgive Carlo Alberto, he will be able to redeem himself" for the simple reason that if it had been Francis V who had inherited the Kingdom of Sardinia, the Piedmont-Modena personal union would have been powerful to the point of making turin a serious power that could question the Austrian Peace imposed in Italy