Isaac's Empire 2.0
- Thread starter Basileus Giorgios
- Start date
Attacks from the West are certainly a strong possibility. I'll be writing more about Orthodox Europe in future, as my old collaborator Megas Doux ton Kypraion and I planned out a load of stuff on it in the thirteenth century about nine months back. This'll gradually be presented over the next few months.
The Jurchens will go somewhere. Maybe several somewheres. Maybe just one. You'll have to wait and see!
Wow talk about giving us a killer update. You are a great story teller. Looking forward to the next update.
Who knows!
Welcome to the thread, by the way: I don't think I've seen you here before.
I previously lurk in the shadows, and read the whole of IE 1.0 and the first part of 2.0
Good update, BG!
Although the invasion was stopped, the ERE still has to recover what Šurhaci Khan occupied.
Thanks, guys!
Yeah, the recovery certainly won't happen overnight!
Ahh, okay. What was your favourite part, first time round?
I should think so. So there's a spoiler for you all!
Excellent update BG! After how well the battle played out in the previous TL I kind of expected at least a little recycling. A quick question, though. The Khan obviously has a large army, and not being an expert on medieval military maneuvers (the education system over here is woefully short on early European history), I do know that large armies move particularly slow. For example, IIRC when the Confederate army in the US Civil War marched, at around 76,000 men, the end of the army would finish the day's march roughly where the the front of the army began, and your update implies the Khan's army is much larger than this. Maybe I am imagining this wrong, but I see Eusthatios' army as being considerably smaller than the Khan's, and thereby typically much more maneuverable on the march. As to my question, was Eusthatios overly cautious or completely inept at using scouts and maneuvers?
I as well am relatively under-educated about European history, especially in the category of medieval army make-up, but I think that its safe to assume that the Khans army was primarily Steppe horsemen, rather than infantry. Granted, Eusthatios' army would have had horsemen too, but i doubt they had them on the level of the Jurchens.
I am only assuming this though. I could be entirely wrong, but based upon my knowledge of the Mongols, they were almost entirely horsemen, and could move many miles in a day.
The mountainous Anatolia would probably slow them down, quite considerably, but still, when you can move 100,000* horses, you'll probably be faster than 50,000* tried and demoralized men.
*Just an example.
*Again, guessing.
In the update BG states that there are "perhaps 10,000" Jurchen warriors, which leads me to believe the majority of the army is infantry, albeit light infantry, from Persia and Mesopotamia, the "cannon fodder" so to speak. Maybe BG can clarify on this issue. I guess the point I was trying to articulate is, how do you lose something that big? Especially considering Eusthatios is on his home turf. Sorry if this is annoying, but I am a detail oriented person that LOVES reading and imagining the movements of armies in the field. And simply looking at US history, much less the broader world, shows generals guilty of both accusations I made against Eusthatios.
As far as the Khan not foreseeing the fire ships, I find that easy to imagine. I mean, when was the last major naval engagement that the Byzantine navy was involved in? Furthermore, his arrogance would have been expanded by the victories he had won over the Romans in the field. Pride can be a dangerous thing in a commander.
All in all, I still loved the update, and love Byzantine survival. I always try to save the Byzantine Empire when I play Europa.
Especially considering Eusthatios is on his home turf. Sorry if this is annoying, but I am a detail oriented person that LOVES reading and imagining the movements of armies in the field. And simply looking at US history, much less the broader world, shows generals guilty of both accusations I made against Eusthatios. As far as the Khan not foreseeing the fire ships, I find that easy to imagine. I mean, when was the last major naval engagement that the Byzantine navy was involved in? Furthermore, his arrogance would have been expanded by the victories he had won over the Romans in the field. Pride can be a dangerous thing in a commander.
All in all, I still loved the update, and love Byzantine survival
. I always try to save the Byzantine Empire when I play Europa.Hmmm...
I think you are both making the mistake of assuming that the Jurchen army is considerably larger than it really is.
The general tool I use for calculating military sizes is the late sixth century military manual of Maurice, the Strategikon, which is quite unusual for an ancient/medieval source as it actually provides reliable details on the sizes of armies put into the field. The assumption made by the Strategikon is that an average Roman field army will be made up of between five and ten thousand men, with fifteen thousand or so being a fairly large force, and I believe the basic principles of the Strategikon in terms of supply and fodder hold true for all pre-modern armies. For this reason, I usually am a little sceptical when I read of armies being considerably larger than this.
Surhaci Khan's army was certainly unusually large, supplied by the wealth of Mesopotamia and boosted by a run of conquests in nearly-as-rich Syria and Cilicia, but Jurchen horsemen and infantry don't consume less food or march faster than their sixth century Roman counterparts. So, I'd say that the Jurchen army that was present at the Battle of Abydos was perhaps thirty to forty thousand strong, of which at least half were levies.
I think you are both making the mistake of assuming that the Jurchen army is considerably larger than it really is.
The general tool I use for calculating military sizes is the late sixth century military manual of Maurice, the Strategikon, which is quite unusual for an ancient/medieval source as it actually provides reliable details on the sizes of armies put into the field. The assumption made by the Strategikon is that an average Roman field army will be made up of between five and ten thousand men, with fifteen thousand or so being a fairly large force, and I believe the basic principles of the Strategikon in terms of supply and fodder hold true for all pre-modern armies. For this reason, I usually am a little sceptical when I read of armies being considerably larger than this.
Surhaci Khan's army was certainly unusually large, supplied by the wealth of Mesopotamia and boosted by a run of conquests in nearly-as-rich Syria and Cilicia, but Jurchen horsemen and infantry don't consume less food or march faster than their sixth century Roman counterparts. So, I'd say that the Jurchen army that was present at the Battle of Abydos was perhaps thirty to forty thousand strong, of which at least half were levies.
This is where I drew my assumption for the size of the Jurchen army.
Well, yes.
But don't forget that to the total of 30-40,000 fighting men you can add about as many again camp followers and such to get up to a 60,000ish figure.
Deleted member 67076
I've finally got around to reading this and I must say this is an absolute masterpiece!
Very glad you've enjoyed the TL! Any other new readers who've not commented?
I've just started full time work, as my latest excuse for not coming up with a new update. But, I have the basic groundplan of the update planned out, so it's just a question of when the muses descend. Hopefully it should be too long, but we shall see.
They'll come when they come, I suppose. I am definitely brewing plenty of ideas in my head, but it's a question of where to slot them into the narrative. Also, the fact I work a 9-5 working week now means there's that bit less time for AH.com. But IE won't die, fear not. An update will come, but don't expect it imminently.
Do re-read and comment, though. An active thread is the best inspiration for an author!