Iowas, Montanas and No Alaskas

So what if somehow the US gets the real specs for the Yamato early on. Maybe they get the idea that three or 4 f them on being built and more are on order. At the same time the US believes that Japan is also building “Super Cruiser”. Or at least so-called up Cruisers.
Could we see the US Navy make the Argument that the Iowas are now “Battle Cruisers” as they cant fight Yamato and the Japanese Super Cruiser are to much for existing USN cruisers so the Iowas are in effect now “battle cruisers” and can be used to A) fight smaller fast Japanese BBs (Not Yamato) And B) they can also be used in much the way the Alaskas were intended to be used as “supper cruisers” or Cruiser Killers. To counter Japans New big cruisers.
Then they order 2 or 3 Montanas in order to counter Yamato.
And as a result of either financial limits, yard limits or someone coming to there senses the Alaskas are just killed off at the design stage.

Could we get say three Iowas and Two Montanas before everything moves to carriers?
 
As more post above…
So in this alt timeline we Lose the Alaska’s not that they are much of a loss as other then being reasonably good looking Ships they were in many ways a bad design and a worse use of money and steel and dry docks
I figure we need two at least of the Iowas and the Montanas to make them practical.
I doubt we could get more then Two Montanas before we start concentrating on Carriers as by that time BBs would be obviously becoming less useful then they were previously believed to be.
The question are.
Could we get Montanas if Yamatos true design is know early one.
If we get Montanas which design? I suspect the 16” gun but lots of them design and as much armor as you can reasonably stuff on them. As there is not time to design a bigger gun,
Also how many Montanas can we get?

Then post war if we get 3 or 4 Iowas and say 2 Montanas which class is kept? We have more Iowas and War service probably shows that Iowas can do pretty much everything as well as Montana but fight Yamato. So I have to think there is a good chance we keep the Iowa’s. Or is there something about Montana that would mean they get recommissioned for Korea or some other use?

My logic on this idea is that in the Late 30s up to Dec 7 of 41 a LOT of folks still viewed Battleships as the King of the seas and thus as the build up starts the US Navy and or US Congress is going to get very very worried about not having a ship to go toe to toe vs Yamato. Thus going forward with Montana in limited numbers. On the Other Hand that limited number means that Iowa is needed to modernize the rest of the battle line as Japan has other ships that have yo be countered.

On the other hand this could very well be wishful thinking in a way to get Montana and Iowas and get rid of the Alaskas.
 
Given the time frames involved with the design build process for the ships, you would have to get the designs for the Yamoto class before they even layed them down if not right after they decide on the final design of them for you to have a Montana class available before mid 44 to early 45. This might even butterfly the SODAKS and Iowa because you would need to up build from the North Carolina class.
 
The minimum-change scenario is that the first two Montanas are ordered and laid down in place of Illinois and Kentucky in addition to Alaska and Guam; this is difficult to push back any further because the design was still being worked on in 1941, and authorization had to wait until the Two-Ocean Navy Act to fund things. Unfortunately, as we all know, Illinois and Kentucky were never completed. To get Montanas completed you'd need to push back their construction even further, and that's going to be difficult to do just on how much time it would take to design the ships, let alone the pre-Fall of France fiscal realities. Not to mention it would cut into construction of Missouri and Wisconsin and the Navy genuinely needed at least four Iowas.

Then post war if we get 3 or 4 Iowas and say 2 Montanas which class is kept? We have more Iowas and War service probably shows that Iowas can do pretty much everything as well as Montana but fight Yamato. So I have to think there is a good chance we keep the Iowa’s. Or is there something about Montana that would mean they get recommissioned for Korea or some other use?
Iowas. They're faster, and thus more useful for postwar service, and require less crew.
 
You are more likely to get Montanas and Alaskas. The Alaskas were to threaten Japanese trade and draw off forces to defend that trade. Iowas were to operate as a squadron in the battle line. Alaska's were expendable, Iowas not. If the Yamatos were known and more importantly, believed, then the Iowa's would simply be replaced with bigger ships but the need for Alaskas would still be there.

Perhaps just end Captain A. J. Chantry's career (head of Preliminary Design in the Bureau of Construction and Repair in 1938) to make the Montana's appear.

From Friedman, Norman; Naval History and Heritage Command. Winning a Future War: War Gaming and Victory in the Pacific War (p. 159):
Another cruiser development almost certainly did not involve the college or gaming. In March 1938, the Secretary of the Navy (presumably meaning the CNO) proposed a new type of large cruiser armed with 10- or 12-inch guns, hence capable of overcoming all existing cruisers. Initial design studies showed that it would displace about 18,000 tons or more (26,000 tons with three triple-gun 12-inch turrets), hence would be well outside the cruiser category as defined by the London Naval Treaty. It would be defined, then, as a capital ship. One question was whether the U.S. Navy would willingly sacrifice battleship tonnage (as provided under the Vinson Acts) to build such ships.​

There is no indication that the idea came out of gaming. The General Board cruiser file (420-8) includes a 4 April 1938 paper strongly advocating the new type of cruiser, written by Captain A. J. Chantry, who was then head of Preliminary Design in the Bureau of Construction and Repair. Chantry had been a member of the Naval War College Senior Class of 1936. His 1938 paper is in the form of the college-advocated “Estimate of the Situation,” but it is far less analytical than the paper the college produced in 1931 to guide future cruiser policy. Given its timing, it may have been mainly an attempt to back the Secretary’s request rather than an independent proposal that the United States should build a super-cruiser. Chantry based his estimate of what the Japanese were likely to build on the national character of her people; the aspirations and aims encompassed in her national policy; geographic factors; and in particular, her present and future economic position…. In considering Japanese character it is perhaps sufficient for present purposes to note that her people are zealots, almost fanatical in type, and only removed in moderate degree from the influences of feudalism. Nationalism is highly developed backed by determination of the strongest character. The Japanese believe that they are the children of Heaven and nothing can divert them from their national idealisms. Life is held cheaply in support of their country. They are the most resolute of peoples, the most fearless and determined adversaries of those who seek to oppose them. They are secretive…. It is safe to assume that [Japan] now seeks the hegemony of all China and areas to the north and desires to extend her influence to the East Indies and South Seas as opportunity presents…there is almost no limit to Japanese conceptions of Empire. Coupled with the fanatical determination of her people it makes Japan a “problem child” in the family of nations; one whose every move deserves the most serious attention and consideration of major powers.

Some of Chantry’s tone may be traceable to the recent shock of the Japanese attack on China in 1937, in the course of which the U.S. Yangtze River gunboat Panay had been attacked and sunk, apparently deliberately. The invasion and such incidents were then leading to the beginning of U.S. mobilization, in the form of the second Vinson Act and less public debate on whether to increase production of naval weapons and equipment. Japan was also in the process of rejecting attempts to convince her to abide by the limits stated in the new London Naval Treaty. However, Chantry was going far beyond the usual cool Naval War College analysis. War College papers did not dwell on national characteristics the way Chantry did.​

Chantry went on to point to Japanese dependence on imported raw materials; Japan had amassed sufficient supplies to last for the early stages of a war, but would have to rely on imports anyway. None of this can have been unfamiliar. Earlier analyses of likely Japanese naval construction would not even have mentioned it. A list of courses of action open to Japan repeated that Japanese secretiveness would be a major factor in her grand strategy. Japan would counter opponents’ greater strength with “cunning,” meaning that Japan would develop “weapons of attack for which her opponents have no counterpart readily available.” This last was an accurate prediction of Japanese policy, which emphasized the development of individually superior weapons such as the huge Yamato-class battleship, the Zero fighter, and the Type 93 “Long Lance” oxygen-propelled torpedo.

Chantry correctly predicted that the Japanese would build warships individually superior to their foreign counterparts. He parted company with the Naval War College in not considering overall Japanese requirements, hence looking at likely Japanese priorities. Instead, he focused on one part of a possible Pacific War, a war against trade that the United States would prosecute. The question was how the Japanese would defend their own trade. This was very different from the issues typically raised in gaming. The Naval War College certainly agreed that Japan would live or die based on its ability to import what it needed, but that led to a U.S. strategy of blockade. Games explored raiding, not as a means of crippling Japan, but rather as a way to draw off Japanese forces to allow the U.S. fleet greater freedom of action.

Chantry pointed out that a Japanese convoy strategy would fail if the convoy escorts could not deal with individually powerful raiders (presumably cruisers). However, the raiders would be drawn into focal areas (where shipping routes crossed) as they ran down their victims. By placing individually powerful ships in the focal areas, the Japanese would gradually annihilate the raiders. It would not matter if the United States built large numbers of cruisers, as long as they were individually inferior to those the Japanese had. It happened that the focal-area defense had been planned by the Royal Navy during the latter part of the 19th century. It was the alternative to convoys that the British adopted at the time as a means of protecting their trade. It is not clear that Chantry or anyone outside the Admiralty knew this in 1938; the focal-area approach may merely have been the obvious one.​

Chantry cited persistent rumors that Japan was already building cruisers somewhat larger than the 10,000-ton limit embodied in the treaties. Other countries might do the larger than the 10,000-ton limit embodied in the treaties. Other countries might do the inch guns) as well as very fast light Italian cruisers. He suggested that the Japanese would use their extra tonnage to mount heavier guns—9-, 10-, or 11-inch calibers. In fact, the Japanese cruisers displaced considerably more than 10,000 tons. No one knew that until the end of the Pacific War. The Japanese used the extra tonnage to gain conventional advantages like greater speed, but the ships did not mount heavier guns.​

Chantry pointed out that having freed themselves of treaty restrictions, the Japanese might choose to build somewhat larger and better-protected ships armed with more 8-inch guns . Alternately, they might jump to a super-cruiser type armed with much more powerful guns. Japanese secrecy made it impossible to know whether super-cruisers were planned. Chantry argued that the possibility could not be dismissed. Any of these ships might indeed be extremely expensive, but the Japanese might well build them anyway. Moreover, the Japanese had a national tendency to spring surprises on their opponents. Chantry argued that the United States should anticipate the possible construction of Japanese or other super-cruisers by building competing ships, the type the General Board was considering. The U.S. Navy needed something superior to either the super 8-inch gun cruiser or the semi-capital ship, since it could not be sure what the Japanese were building.​

All of this was a very non–Naval War College argument dressed in Naval War College clothing. Chantry never asked the usual Naval War College questions. What were overall Japanese requirements? What were their priorities likely to be, given likely U.S. action in wartime? There is no evidence that the college was ever asked for its views, or for that matter whether it ever volunteered any. For the moment, enthusiasm for big overarmed cruisers waned, because it seemed more important to use available tonnage for real battleships (the Iowas were being designed). However, the super-cruiser idea returned in 1940, when the Two-Ocean Navy Act of July 1940 dramatically increased available tonnage and all restrictions associated with the London Naval Treaty had died. The big new cruiser program included the six Alaskas, which certainly filled Chantry’s requirements. As for the Japanese, they seem to have decided to build their own super-cruisers only in 1941, and then as part of their main fleet (they were to replace the Kongo-class battlecruisers). These ships were never laid down.​
 
The simplest option is to replace the Alaska class building program at Camden with the Montanas. They cannot be accelerated as the slips there need to be extended for the Alaskas and will need further work for the Montanas. So, they will be laid down no earlier than the Alaskas, but will take longer to build. Completion will likely not happen for the first two before mid 1945.

You could replace the last two Iowas with Montanas but the ships were not finished OTL. They will be even further from completion with this change.
 
Would not just cancelling the Alaska's and building more Iowa's (Illinois and Kentucky) not be faster than Montanas?

The best with hindsight would be for USNI to get proof of the Yamato somehow in 37 by some intel leak and then USN could turn the SDs into Iowas from 39 and just keep making them fast?
 
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The Alaskas were NOT tying up battleship resources. Battleships were built in Navy Yards, the Alaskas, as @johnboy mentions were built in Camden. They weren't using heavy armor plate production, something the US was just about at capacity during the war, and they used the practically mass-produced power plant of the Essex class carriers.

I think to get rid of the Alaskas you have to get rid of King. While an aviator, he was big proponent of the class. He wanted heavy gun ships that could protect the carriers, defeating enemy raiding (read IJN Heavy) cruisers quickly. Also, he saw the RN early in the war weakening their battle-line for convoy escort. He felt the USN battleline would be occupied with the IJN battle-line and the USN should have a heavy ship capable of escort.

The obstacle for the Montanas was the design staff was occupied. The Escalator Clause was implemented in two parts, the caliber increase on 01 April 1937 and the tonnage increase on 31 March 1038. The design staff got caught between trying to make a 35,000 tons standard battleship immune to 16 shells, then had to design a 16in 45,000 tons battleship. The reason Hornet was laid down as a (slightly) improved Yorktown class the design staff hadn't completed the carrier design for the Essex class because they were busy with the battleship design that became Iowa.

Have series production of the BB-55 design, eliminate the BB-57 work and maybe the staff will get the Montana design finalized sooner.

My thoughts,
 
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