Instead of Pearl Harbor, Japan invades Siberia.

Vladimir

Banned
After the US oil embargo, Japan wanted to defeat the United States for access to oil and a secure Asian empire. However, there were voices in the Japanese government that argued against an attack on the United States. They instead wanted to invade resource-rich Siberia.

I think that this might ensure a very different outcome on all fronts. With an invasion of Siberia, the Soviet Union would have been stretched thin in deploying forces to protect itself, and that could have compromised it on both fronts. Its only hope would be to commit to first driving out the Germans, then focusing its attention on the Japanese, though Stalin might think that he has an endless number of potential soldiers, and then simultaneously commit millions of poorly armed and trained young men to both fronts, stretching the Soviet Union's resources to the limit. Even if the Soviets opted to focus on the Germans first, the Japanese might have launched a new offensive when the tide began to turn, knowing their turn would come next. They had a base in China from which they could penetrate deep into the country and maintain a steady logistical chain.

At the same time, the United States is sympathetic to the Allies, but its hands are tied without an attack. Without America, Britain stands alone, and can only defend itself. There is no chance of liberating Europe. Without America, Britain might also find itself in a more serious situation during the North African campaign and Battle of the Mediterranean. The Germans and Italians may have even been able to win those fights, especially if the Soviets were forced into surrender early on, and the Germans could transfer reinforcements to the Western front.

The Battle of the Atlantic might have been the death-blow to Britain. With US participation limited to "neutrality patrols", U-Boats could have wreaked even more havoc on British merchant shipping, and the US could have been helpless to stop the process. Already broke from the war, devastated from the Blitz and possibly from a failed Operation Sea Lion, facing starvation and economic ruin, Britain might have been forced to cave. I can forsee Britain proposing some sort of formal arrangement, but Hitler, still smarting from Germany's defeat in World War I and the humiliating peace terms that followed, demanding unconditional surrender, and the British eventually being forced to cave, with the Germans either flat-out occupying the country or imposing humiliating peace terms.


Thoughts? Alternate scenarios?
 
After the US oil embargo, Japan wanted to defeat the United States for access to oil and a secure Asian empire. However, there were voices in the Japanese government that argued against an attack on the United States. They instead wanted to invade resource-rich Siberia.

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Thoughts? Alternate scenarios?


It's never going to happen. Everything the Japanese needed lay to the south and southwest. I can't imagine any non-ASB scenario in which they would attack north with the opponent they most feared (the USN) intact in what would then be their rear.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
I can't imagine any non-ASB scenario in which they would attack north with the opponent they most feared (the USN) intact in what would then be their rear.
It depends on the branch. The IJA still felt that SU was the greater threat, and thus the IJA and IJN set their prime enemies separately. If the IJA won out, there would have been a strike north. However, all this depended on US oil. Therefore, only if the US didn't go with the oil embargo would this scenario have a chance of succeeding.
 
Also, even if things could get that bad, the UK would just invest a ton in Operation Vegetarian to force the Nazis out of the war. Hell, I bet if the US didn't enter the war when it did, they would've done so soon, considering the odds.
 
It depends on the branch. The IJA still felt that SU was the greater threat, and thus the IJA and IJN set their prime enemies separately. If the IJA won out, there would have been a strike north. However, all this depended on US oil. Therefore, only if the US didn't go with the oil embargo would this scenario have a chance of succeeding.

Japan was having trouble paying for its fuel imports for the US as is, and it eventually needed to acquire sources of its own from the Dutch East Indies.

Japan will not gain anything from an attack on Siberia, and will only start a war it will lose in the end.
 
I don't even think Siberia's petroleum/gas resources have been developed yet to any large degree, so compared to taking the southern resource area it really doesn't make sense.
 
I don't even think Siberia's petroleum/gas resources have been developed yet to any large degree, so compared to taking the southern resource area it really doesn't make sense.

Siberia's petroleum/gas resources were not even known of, and even if someone provided Stalin with a map showing where all of them were and how big all the reserves were he wouldn't be able to do anything with it. The techniques for the extraction of Siberian oil didn't come out until the 1950's, in the 30's or 40's, the place is a big hunk of ice for Japan, and one that happens to be populated by the Red Army which is awaiting its rematch with Japanese forces.

Japan was lucky that the Soviet Union had other concerns in 1938, if they attack again, they're going to get their faces rubbed in the dirt and stomped on afterward.
 
Japanese land forces were so woefully inferior because they've kept the inter-war army tactics and doctrine from Europe.

They'll be curb stomped so hard it's not funny and lose Manchuria and even Korea within a year even if the bulk of the Red Army is sent west.
 
Given the poor results(and lack of decent tanks) displayed by the Japanese army against the Soviets in 1938 just how would Tokyo be convinced that this invasion had any hope of success? Not to mention the imminent collapse due to lack of oil...
 
It's never going to happen. Everything the Japanese needed lay to the south and southwest. I can't imagine any non-ASB scenario in which they would attack north with the opponent they most feared (the USN) intact in what would then be their rear.

They strike oil in Manchuria in the 30s, they no longer need to invade the Dutch East Indies.
 
I've thought for some time Japan's only real hope of victory in WW2
would be to help the Germans defeat the Soviet Union. They don't
have to defeat the Soviets and can make enough diplomatic moves
to delay a war with the USA which is only to their benefit. If they
can use their navy to enter the Indian Ocean without having to
worry about the USA, it would open all kinds of moves for the
Axis powers.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
Given the poor results(and lack of decent tanks) displayed by the Japanese army against the Soviets in 1938 just how would Tokyo be convinced that this invasion had any hope of success? Not to mention the imminent collapse due to lack of oil...
"The spiritual power of our invincible troops shall crush the Red's reliance on material power, through overwhelming charges!"

Personally, I think the scenario written in "Rising Sun Victorious" does have the possibility. Yet, we have the question: What's the benefit when you're going to run out of oil anyway?
 
They strike oil in Manchuria in the 30s, they no longer need to invade the Dutch East Indies.

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the initial invasion of Manchuria was as much for petroleum resources as it was for providing a base of expansion into China?

In any case Japan swelled with Manchurian oil still invaded the DEI.
 
Try saying that to a bunch of fanatics who believed in the superior "spiritual power" of the Yamato Damashii.

Oh I was never one to doubt the commitment of people who honestly thought they could start a fight with the United States and come out on top but just saying, there's next to no way Japan was going to win. Japan winning a war with the Stalinist USSR would basically be an issue of Germany doing so well in the West that the Soviet Union could not resist a Japanese assault.
 
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the initial invasion of Manchuria was as much for petroleum resources as it was for providing a base of expansion into China?

In any case Japan swelled with Manchurian oil still invaded the DEI.

IIRC the major wells in Manchuria weren't drilled until the 50s.
 
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the initial invasion of Manchuria was as much for petroleum resources as it was for providing a base of expansion into China?

The oil wasn't discovered until 1958, IIRC. In any case, it seems to me that scenarios calling for early oil discoveries in Manchuria would be terrific news - for the Soviet Union, which has a superior army sitting just over the border from there, and probably wants a reason to come south again. They probably wouldn't wait until 1945 with such an incentive just bubbling out of the ground there.
 
"The spiritual power of our invincible troops shall crush the Red's reliance on material power, through overwhelming charges!"

Personally, I think the scenario written in "Rising Sun Victorious" does have the possibility. Yet, we have the question: What's the benefit when you're going to run out of oil anyway?

I was wondering when someone would bring up Rising Sun Victorious.

Is that scenario even remotely possible?
 
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