For now, basically yes the House is organized pretty much on OTL terms. By the time you get to the present day, it will be different (mostly due to the sheer size of the House). Also, the Representative and Senator are actually voting members.
Imperium Libertatis
- Thread starter ericams2786
- Start date
For now, basically yes the House is organized pretty much on OTL terms. By the time you get to the present day, it will be different (mostly due to the sheer size of the House). Also, the Representative and Senator are actually voting members.
My mistake, I went back and realized I'd misread the Second Amendment. Thanks.
Does the Treaty of Tripoli ITTL still contain that famous/infamous declaration, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen..." or some analogue? A similar phrase might have been necessary in order to assure the Muslim population of these territories that their religious liberties would not be infringed upon because of the Christian majority of the United States.
Do you think a map will be coming out soon? I'd love to see these territories mapped out, on both sides of the ocean.
As a matter of fact the Treaty of Tripoli in this TL does have that language and that is one factor that helps the annexation and later Statehood argument much more convincing for the Muslims of this area. As for a map, I planned on doing one later on as things got more complicated, but for now, basically imagine OTL US at this point in time, same territories and States, minus GA, SC, and NC, then add Morocco of the time period plus the other three cities. That's about it at this point.
As a "statist commie" (left-wing libertarian actually 
), I've been wanting to see someone create a right-wing libertarian Ameriwank. Just suspend the disbelief.
And you've made my dream come true. Even though I am already tempted to create one on my own, a more detailed and slightly tamed and realistic "The Probability Broach"; guess there is no need anymore. I can focus on my alternate Strangerverse Ameriwank project that I am planning.
I like the list of Presidents of the NAC over there, especially people like individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker (that is actually part of the socialist movement) plus Sequoyah and Frederick Douglas. Damn. You can finally do it here. The Constitution is pretty much fine. I want to see you create a full Constitution though. Maybe I can help?
In terms of the federation vs confederation argument, It's important to note that federalism during the 1780s applies more to the AOC system than to our current system today. In fact, people like Patrick Henry would rather call themselves "Federalists" rather than "Anti-Federalists" because federalism for them means the AOC system.
Just to see America expand to phenomenal heights here is something I will truly want to see. Whahaha.
So guys, let's just suspend our disbelief. Hey, I've been a Carsonite mutualist/free market anarchist for some time. So I know where this guy comes from. Much of mutualism/free market anarchism/individualist anarchism/anarcho-capitalism shares a lot of things so I know...
Now speaking of that, should we see political parties revolving around ideological differences in the libertarian spectrum, both left and right. Of course, some fringe Hamiltonian statists and fringe anti-market libertarians would be cool too. Hahaha.
), I've been wanting to see someone create a right-wing libertarian Ameriwank. Just suspend the disbelief. And you've made my dream come true.
Even though I am already tempted to create one on my own, a more detailed and slightly tamed and realistic "The Probability Broach"; guess there is no need anymore. I can focus on my alternate Strangerverse Ameriwank project that I am planning. I like the list of Presidents of the NAC over there, especially people like individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker (that is actually part of the socialist movement) plus Sequoyah and Frederick Douglas. Damn. You can finally do it here. The Constitution is pretty much fine. I want to see you create a full Constitution though. Maybe I can help?
In terms of the federation vs confederation argument, It's important to note that federalism during the 1780s applies more to the AOC system than to our current system today. In fact, people like Patrick Henry would rather call themselves "Federalists" rather than "Anti-Federalists" because federalism for them means the AOC system.
Just to see America expand to phenomenal heights here is something I will truly want to see. Whahaha.
So guys, let's just suspend our disbelief. Hey, I've been a Carsonite mutualist/free market anarchist for some time. So I know where this guy comes from. Much of mutualism/free market anarchism/individualist anarchism/anarcho-capitalism shares a lot of things so I know...
Now speaking of that, should we see political parties revolving around ideological differences in the libertarian spectrum, both left and right. Of course, some fringe Hamiltonian statists and fringe anti-market libertarians would be cool too. Hahaha.
It does answer some of it.
But not of the huge geographic distance, which will be a problem in not simply governance (though I know the states, or future states, have a lot a autonomy) but defensively.
The Americans have pissed off the Ottomans, relations with France are not good, and all the other Nations in Europe are going to be worried about this, especially ones where the Monarch still has some power.
be interesting to see how you manage that.
I'm not too worried about geographical distance. Every time I start to worry about it, I think of Britain and it's hold on Australia, Canada, and India at the same time, not to mention the gigantic British Empire of the second half of the 19th century. I mean if the British can do it, so can we. Might be hard, but it is possible. And again think about those Mongols in the 1200-1300's.
That's very true.
But Britain was an old country with a well developed Navy and experience in far flung places. Australia and Canada were mostly colonists rather than subjected people (yes I know about the convicts but still), and India was first partially ruled by a private company.
If it keeps up a good defensive projection, and tries to soothe over relations in Europe, then it should all go fairly fine, though I still think they'll be some problems with North Africa for a time until they adjust.
I might seem very picky with this, but I just want to see you've got a good, thought out reason to things that is plausible. Which you seem to have.
That's very true.
But Britain was an old country with a well developed Navy and experience in far flung places. Australia and Canada were mostly colonists rather than subjected people (yes I know about the convicts but still), and India was first partially ruled by a private company.
If it keeps up a good defensive projection, and tries to soothe over relations in Europe, then it should all go fairly fine, though I still think they'll be some problems with North Africa for a time until they adjust.
I might seem very picky with this, but I just want to see you've got a good, thought out reason to things that is plausible. Which you seem to have.
Well now keep in mind, this is an "Ameriwank", so there will certainly be implausible or very unlikely things occurring in the TL. Not impossible mind you, just very unlikely. But hey, that's what "wank" scenarios or sort of about. The North Africa territories will eventually blossom, along with the Pepper Coast territory into a large American "empire" in Africa. The US will certainly make enemies of most of Europe, but will have some key allies that will help balance things out eventually.
1801 – Alexander I succeeds Paul I as Tsar of Russia. The war between France and Austria ends, but the other Second Coalition members continue the war with France. L’Ouverture declares himself Emperor for life of the entire island of Hispaniola. South Carolina joins the Confederacy of Georgia and North Carolina in March, after the two American Republics pledge to assume South Carolina’s foreign debt. The nation is now referred to as the Confederacy of American States after the signing by all three parties of the Treaty of Charleston. Napoleon sends one of his top generals, Charles Leclerc, to Hispaniola with 40,000 men and a squadron of ships to re-establish French control over the island. Virginia announces a 10-year plan of gradual manumission of slavery, to be finished by 1811.
1802 – The US Army Corp of Engineers is established and the second US military academy is established at West Point in New York. Slavery is abolished in Maryland. The population of the Pepper Coast Territory (OTL Liberia) has swollen to 82,000 people. The US army reaches a strength of 91,000 highly trained and disciplined soldiers trained in the latest military tactics. The Treaty of Amiens ends the War of the Second Coalition by officially bringing peace between Britain and France. The Confederacy manages to pay off all of South Carolina’s outstanding loans to the European powers. Napoleon re-establishes slavery in French colonies and Leclerc lands in Hispaniola. After winning several battles and securing the southern portion of Haiti, he becomes careless and is ambushed during a march north by L’Ouverture and Jean-Jacques Dessalines and is forced to retreat south back to his base at Port-au-Prince. During his retreat and subsequent stay at Port-au-Prince, a large number of his force dies from Yellow Fever. Later in the year Leclerc himself falls prey to Yellow Fever and Napoleon, upon hearing of this, gives up all hope of a rebuilt French Empire in the Americas. The defeat of the French army and death of Leclerc, leads to Napoleon contacting the US about buying the Louisiana Territory as a way to rid France of the burden of governance, help France pay off foreign loans taken out during the wars, and to help mend relations with the US in the event of another war with Britain.
1803 – Ohio is admitted as the 14th State. In April, the US buys the Louisiana Territory from France for $15 million dollars in currency and cancellation of French debts. Napoleon uses some of this newly acquired money to start a naval expansion for the purpose of eventually invading Britain. The US and the CAS sign a trade agreement significantly lowering tariffs between the two countries. Tecumseh and other tribal leaders from the Northwest Territory submit a proposal to Congress for Statehood for a stretch of land in OTL Indiana and Michigan. The naval expansion originally began by Congress in 1790 is finally completed and Congress stops expanding the navy for the time being. Several States however, most notably New York and Virginia, continue to expand their State fleets, with Virginia’s navy reaching nearly half the strength of the US fleet in this year. A Moroccan rebel by the name of Ismail Abd-Al-Aziz begins a revolt in the city of Fez, temporarily driving the US marines from the city. After three intense battles, the marines defeat the ragtag army of Abd-Al-Aziz, but he escapes south and begins a campaign to recruit more Moroccans dissatisfied with the US occupation. Low-level war continues between Britain and France though peace was technically secured the year prior.
1804 – Full war erupts between Britain and France again, and Austria, Russia, and Portugal, funded largely from London, begin hostilities yet again. Spain attempts an invasion of Portugal, but is defeated severely by the Portuguese army in October. The defeat substantially weakens the Spanish Army and Spain largely sits out the rest of the war, minus being active on the naval front. Napoleon draws up a plan for invading Britain that calls for using a combined Spanish and French fleet to lure the British fleet into a trap and damaging it bad enough that a plausible invasion can occur. Napoleon also institutes the Napoleonic Code in France. The island of Hispaniola officially gains independence, making the tiny nation the world’s first black Republic. The US recognized Hispaniola, now known simply as the Haitian Republic, but the CAS refuses to recognize or trade with the newly independent nation. The Lewis and Clark expedition begins this year as they travel up the Missouri River, mapping and surveying the newly acquired territory. The Treaty of St. Louis is signed between the US and the Sauk and Meskwaki native tribes in OTL Illinois, ceding land to the US in exchange for the tribes to move eastward to the land currently under consideration as a Native American State submitted to Congress the previous year. The tribes agree to the move, but some tribal leaders such as Black Hawk do so with great reluctance. Under the terms of the treaty, the US government will pay for the tribes to move and provide an escort to their new lands.
US marines fight several battles with Abd-Al-Aziz’s rebel army in Morocco, finally destroying his army outside of Tangier in November. The rebel general is captured, but US forces show great leniency toward the prisoners, including Abd-Al-Aziz. Because of this clemency, and specific language in the Treaty of Casablanca ensuring Muslim freedom of religion, Abd-Al-Aziz eventually becomes one of the biggest proponents in the Barbary Territories for Statehood. Simon Bolivar, after witnessing the coronation of Napoleon I in Paris, commits himself to independence for his native Venezuela and in general, Spanish America, from Spain. Bolivar returns to Venezuela by the end of the year. French-Spanish and British fleets skirmish throughout the year, ending with a draw in a large battle off the coast of Le Havre. Samuel Adams dies while in office serving as a Consul elected by the House of Representatives, and the House elects George Mason V, son of George Mason, to serve out the remainder of Adam’s term.
1802 – The US Army Corp of Engineers is established and the second US military academy is established at West Point in New York. Slavery is abolished in Maryland. The population of the Pepper Coast Territory (OTL Liberia) has swollen to 82,000 people. The US army reaches a strength of 91,000 highly trained and disciplined soldiers trained in the latest military tactics. The Treaty of Amiens ends the War of the Second Coalition by officially bringing peace between Britain and France. The Confederacy manages to pay off all of South Carolina’s outstanding loans to the European powers. Napoleon re-establishes slavery in French colonies and Leclerc lands in Hispaniola. After winning several battles and securing the southern portion of Haiti, he becomes careless and is ambushed during a march north by L’Ouverture and Jean-Jacques Dessalines and is forced to retreat south back to his base at Port-au-Prince. During his retreat and subsequent stay at Port-au-Prince, a large number of his force dies from Yellow Fever. Later in the year Leclerc himself falls prey to Yellow Fever and Napoleon, upon hearing of this, gives up all hope of a rebuilt French Empire in the Americas. The defeat of the French army and death of Leclerc, leads to Napoleon contacting the US about buying the Louisiana Territory as a way to rid France of the burden of governance, help France pay off foreign loans taken out during the wars, and to help mend relations with the US in the event of another war with Britain.
1803 – Ohio is admitted as the 14th State. In April, the US buys the Louisiana Territory from France for $15 million dollars in currency and cancellation of French debts. Napoleon uses some of this newly acquired money to start a naval expansion for the purpose of eventually invading Britain. The US and the CAS sign a trade agreement significantly lowering tariffs between the two countries. Tecumseh and other tribal leaders from the Northwest Territory submit a proposal to Congress for Statehood for a stretch of land in OTL Indiana and Michigan. The naval expansion originally began by Congress in 1790 is finally completed and Congress stops expanding the navy for the time being. Several States however, most notably New York and Virginia, continue to expand their State fleets, with Virginia’s navy reaching nearly half the strength of the US fleet in this year. A Moroccan rebel by the name of Ismail Abd-Al-Aziz begins a revolt in the city of Fez, temporarily driving the US marines from the city. After three intense battles, the marines defeat the ragtag army of Abd-Al-Aziz, but he escapes south and begins a campaign to recruit more Moroccans dissatisfied with the US occupation. Low-level war continues between Britain and France though peace was technically secured the year prior.
1804 – Full war erupts between Britain and France again, and Austria, Russia, and Portugal, funded largely from London, begin hostilities yet again. Spain attempts an invasion of Portugal, but is defeated severely by the Portuguese army in October. The defeat substantially weakens the Spanish Army and Spain largely sits out the rest of the war, minus being active on the naval front. Napoleon draws up a plan for invading Britain that calls for using a combined Spanish and French fleet to lure the British fleet into a trap and damaging it bad enough that a plausible invasion can occur. Napoleon also institutes the Napoleonic Code in France. The island of Hispaniola officially gains independence, making the tiny nation the world’s first black Republic. The US recognized Hispaniola, now known simply as the Haitian Republic, but the CAS refuses to recognize or trade with the newly independent nation. The Lewis and Clark expedition begins this year as they travel up the Missouri River, mapping and surveying the newly acquired territory. The Treaty of St. Louis is signed between the US and the Sauk and Meskwaki native tribes in OTL Illinois, ceding land to the US in exchange for the tribes to move eastward to the land currently under consideration as a Native American State submitted to Congress the previous year. The tribes agree to the move, but some tribal leaders such as Black Hawk do so with great reluctance. Under the terms of the treaty, the US government will pay for the tribes to move and provide an escort to their new lands.
US marines fight several battles with Abd-Al-Aziz’s rebel army in Morocco, finally destroying his army outside of Tangier in November. The rebel general is captured, but US forces show great leniency toward the prisoners, including Abd-Al-Aziz. Because of this clemency, and specific language in the Treaty of Casablanca ensuring Muslim freedom of religion, Abd-Al-Aziz eventually becomes one of the biggest proponents in the Barbary Territories for Statehood. Simon Bolivar, after witnessing the coronation of Napoleon I in Paris, commits himself to independence for his native Venezuela and in general, Spanish America, from Spain. Bolivar returns to Venezuela by the end of the year. French-Spanish and British fleets skirmish throughout the year, ending with a draw in a large battle off the coast of Le Havre. Samuel Adams dies while in office serving as a Consul elected by the House of Representatives, and the House elects George Mason V, son of George Mason, to serve out the remainder of Adam’s term.
Hey, please do not ignore me and reply to my questions... you know
Honestly, I didn't really know what to make of your post. It seemed sort of sarcastic and I couldn't really tell where you were actually asking a question. I have no problem answering questions though, ask away.
BTW, for their time, Classic Liberals (or what you might refer to largely as libertarians today) were leftists for their time. The "right wing" back then was mostly absolutists/monarchists. So technically even today, libertarians are left-wingers, not right wingers. The political spectrum in America is just messed up in today's world with the entire spectrum consisting of authoritarian to authoritarian. It should actually be anarchy to complete government control from left to right.
I kinda agree with that. The real spectrum should be between statists and anti-statists.
I do not know why you think I am being sarcastic. I'm thinking because having some blinder that showed up (seeing the word commie) might created a misunderstanding. In fact, I genuinely ask people in my post to suspend the disbelief. I am meaning it.
Now so that you can understand that post, especially the questions in it, I am reposting my questions in this order:
1. Would you mind if I contribute in making the US Constitution here?
2. Do you know of the Probability Broach book by L. Neill Smith? Because I thought that this is the "tamed" and "more realistic" version of it. So if that is the case, would we see some of the Presidents of the North American Confederacy as Consuls of the United States here?
3. Would we see political parties around here including some fringe Hamiltonian statist parties as well as those all around the libertarian spectrum, left and right? I would really love to contribute about that.
4. Is it possible that since government intervention still appears within the States that people started pushing more for their liberty as years go by? I am a former Carsonite mutualist/free market anarchist... so I think I know how to contribute so that we can enrich this thread with more material I guess.
There. I hope it's more understandable now.
I kinda agree with that. The real spectrum should be between statists and anti-statists.
I do not know why you think I am being sarcastic. I'm thinking because having some blinder that showed up (seeing the word commie) might created a misunderstanding. In fact, I genuinely ask people in my post to suspend the disbelief. I am meaning it.
Now so that you can understand that post, especially the questions in it, I am reposting my questions in this order:
1. Would you mind if I contribute in making the US Constitution here?
2. Do you know of the Probability Broach book by L. Neill Smith? Because I thought that this is the "tamed" and "more realistic" version of it. So if that is the case, would we see some of the Presidents of the North American Confederacy as Consuls of the United States here?
3. Would we see political parties around here including some fringe Hamiltonian statist parties as well as those all around the libertarian spectrum, left and right? I would really love to contribute about that.
4. Is it possible that since government intervention still appears within the States that people started pushing more for their liberty as years go by? I am a former Carsonite mutualist/free market anarchist... so I think I know how to contribute so that we can enrich this thread with more material I guess.
There. I hope it's more understandable now.
Thanks for the clarification.
1. That would be awesome because honestly I don't have the time. Keep in mind that the stuff about slavery is a separate Article, as are the sections on State's rights and OTL Bill of Rights which in this TL are not Amendments. I would love some help with the Constitution.
2. I have never heard of that book before, but I looked it up on Amazon and it looks interesting. I do believe that social services could be handled more appropriately in the private sector, especially if said services competed with one another. It would be a huge boon to any company to be able to advertise that they help the poor, hungry, etc. As for the CAS, it will eventually be reabsorbed by the US.
3. I am completely at a loss as to what to do with political parties. I absolutely abhor political parties and basically think that they just lead to corruption and the growth of government/destruction of liberty. Washington in OTL felt somewhat the same way. I really don't know where to go with that. On one hand, having political parties would add to the TL, but on the other hand, I just don't like them.
4. Yes. Basically the only place where you will see significant government intervention in the market will be in some of the States. In this TL, you will definitely see an "experiment" mentality where some States try things, they don't work well, people move to other States ("vote with their feet"), etc. But again, since I believe the free market, when truly left alone, can handle things far better than the government, that will be reflected often in this TL, especially with regard to banking.
I have only the briefest acquaintance with Haitian history, but when did L'Ouverture decide he didn't want to be Emperor any more? Shouldn't it be the Haitian Empire, rather than the Haitian Republic?
I see this possibly biting the US government in the butt, later. If they keep their word (as I assume you're going to have them do) ITTL and actually let the Native Americans keep their land, you're still going to have a bunch of tribes with little to no common identity thrown together, save that they've been moved off their original land. Now, some of these tribes, if I remember correctly, are still occupying land they're originally from. How are they going to feel with these Sauk and Meskwaki moving in? I'm not saying that there's going to be any kind of insurrection or rebellion, but discontent is going to follow for a while. Of course, there may be social factors I'm not aware of; I don't know how the various tribes that now live in this Native American soon-to-be-state interacted with one another IOTL, so I have no point of reference. Just saying, putting together various ethnic groups/tribes that don't see each other has unified has been tried plenty of times before, both by the US and other nations. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I'd be really interested to know how exactly Abd-al-Aziz came to the conclusion that, not only could he no longer fight, but that he should actually support the "occupying forces" he was once determined to repel. I understand that the US forces treated him very humanely, and that can go a long way, but the US government had already guaranteed them freedom of religious practice, hadn't they? It seems like more motivation is needed for Abd-al-Aziz to make such a big turnaround, to go from rebel to ardent supporter. Just my two-cents.
1. There will still be low-grade Indian wars throughout American history and of course not every tribe will get its own land/State. This US will have MUCH more land to play with, so it is also much more willing to allow Native States to exist. Also, as you will see in a later update, there is a reason for the increased tolerance of Natives in this US compared to OTL. As for the Sauk and Meskwaki, they essentially lost a war with the US and the terms they agreed to are to move to the area inhabited by other Northwestern Territory natives. The other Natives will not mind them being there much, as there is not only plenty of land, but their goal is to create a Native State, so the higher the population, the better chance they have of reaching this goal. Plus, more Natives means less Whites. And they all have sort of a common cause to a certain extent.
2. Abd-Al-Aziz does not become an ardent supporter overnight. The seeds are planted with the clemency he is shown. It will take about three decades for him to become an ardent supporter as he observes and experiences US "rule" in the area. The hands-off approach, freedom of movement, religion, and speech and the fact that the US will not act like a "Christian nation conquering a Muslim people", will soften his attitude over time, along with the constant threat of European colonization of the rest of the North African coast. The other colonizing powers will not be quite as tolerant and inclusive as the US and stories of the brutality of the French and others later on from refugees will soften his attitude a lot. Basically he will see how the US treats its Muslim population (respect, freedom to live their lives, no persecution, no brutal measures, representation and offer of equal status and near-independence) compared to the brutal war/occupation of the French and others in Muslim lands.
Yehey! I'll keep in mind what you just said and based the Constitution on the outline you've just created the past few posts.
I'll bring to you another link. It's the comics version of it!
The Graphic Novel: Probability Broach
You'll enjoy it.
You just have the Republicans with you. As long as there is still a minarchist government structure, there would still be factions. Washington might have felt like it, but for me it's inevitable... There is a lot of libertarian strands around that's going to fight for their ideals to be implemented. The good thing about this is that they have a commitment to personal and economic liberty in the first place. Of course there would be those fringe statist elements around, but given the prosperity of the United States due to its classical liberal policies, they would not garner much attention. If you don't want to focus on them, maybe I'll just take the job then?
Definitely. I think what we're going to see is OTL Jacksonian free banking... at least for a while. It might develop through something more eventually.